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Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:01:00 - [1981]
 

Originally by: Seth Ruin
Edited by: Seth Ruin on 14/10/2008 16:00:19
Originally by: BIind
Originally by: Emerald Cortess
So for example u gain SP in gunnery when activating a gun to a ship. Or u get better in the EM-Compensation-Skill when u have fitted a EM-Hardener and someone is shooting u with EM-Missiles. As far as i know, this would be the first mmorpg using such system and it would make EVE very very special.


UO was like this.


Yeah... And UO is doing so well now compared to back then!
http://mmogdata.voig.com/voig/ContentList/MMOGDATA/Charts/7.ViewChart?aLanguage=en-us&a5Years=Y

Edit: clicky


It's not doing too bad considering the graphics are ancient. Which is the reason most MMOs 'drop off'

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:02:00 - [1982]
 

As much as I think this change is counterproductive from a revenue point of view, it does amuse me to see how many people are willing to convince THEMSELVES they have a legitimate gripe against ccps actions (eg "you said it was a feature 2 years ago" or whatever else) when the REAL and ONLY reason they are ****ed off is because it disadvantages them.....

Shakra Mar
Raddick Explorations
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:02:00 - [1983]
 

Edited by: Shakra Mar on 14/10/2008 16:03:00
I really dont get all the whining "Waaa, I'm not going to get something for nothing anymore! I'm going to take my ball and go home." Get over it already. If you want to play and progress through a subscription based game then expect to pay the damn subscription; its not an unreasonable concept. If you cant deal with that go check out Progress Quest...

Seriya
Caldari
LogiTech Systems
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:03:00 - [1984]
 

Congratulations on putting up a Dev Blog to explain in detail, as you should have done in the first place.

However, I still hate you.

Borg Zorg
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:03:00 - [1985]
 

Originally by: Todoshi
Originally by: Borg Zorg
inviting all unsadisfied player to bring their mains and alts on lag fest to jita.
manifastacion is good way of showing how unsadisfied you are.Bring remot reping moduls and remot reping dronse.2000 unhapy users and 10000 reping dronse looks like nice protest to me.
Im on my way to jita.
See u there



See you in Jita

come to protest guys.
Let see real power of players???

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:03:00 - [1986]
 

Five and a Half years for something retrospectively described as a bug-fix. Only four to go until this implant does something then !


Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:03:00 - [1987]
 

Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Seth Ruin
And you still failed to show anything in response to my challenge many pages back, so I'll post it again:

Find me one other "bug" or "unintended feature" in the player's manual.
I don't know of any off-hand (and have no intention of paging through the guide looking). But since the guide doesn't say anything about intent one way or the other on 99% of the game's mechanics, and since I can't read minds, how can we know what was intended and what was emergent? What I do know is that it makes no damn difference either way. Even if this was the only unintended feature documented in the guide then that just means that this was the only unintended feature documented in the guide, and so what?

Now, if you could show that CCP was explicitly using this "feature" in advertising, while it would still not show intent, it would justify some of the annoyance at this decision.

Originally by: Seth Ruin
Or, better yet, so we're on the same level: What would you consider a list of "intended effects?" The features page?
I wouldn't expect such a list, period, why would you? Why would CCP (or anyone) run through each and every aspect of the game and specify; "Meant to do that", "Just got lucky", and "Ooops"?

The guide describes how things are regardless of how they ended up that way. Reading more into it is unwarranted.

Quite simply: They say it was unintended and there is nothing which indicates that's untrue. Certainly there's nothing remotely resembling proof that it's untrue. Without proof, without evidence, all you have is your tinfoil hat/black helicopter nonsense being used to justify your annoyance at this decision by painting them as "liars".


So here you're going to tell me neither you nor your main will ever complain about any game change ever, correct? Because after all, nothing is really an "intended feature." I hope you're not one of the people complaining about the nano-nerf, either, because none of that was "intended" either.

rapidity
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:03:00 - [1988]
 


Callib Gor'Karrithe
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:04:00 - [1989]
 

I honestly can't believe how many people are freaking out because they're no longer allowed a service that they were not even paying for in the first place.

The other thing that seems to go over peoples' heads is that we've all been *****ing and moaning collectively for a while that there's no method for queueing up skills for training, so you can just run through... say (arbitrarily) six skills without having to select the next one as the current one finishes. As CCP has said time and time again, this would just increase the amount of skills someone can ghost train.

But... oh, look at that. Ghost training is gone. Gee, would this not be a bit of foreshadowing to queued training?

Seriously, guys... you need to calm down and get it into your heads that running this **** costs CCP money. If you want to play with the big fancy toy that costs money, then you must pay money. Otherwise you get what you pay for: nothing, and have little right to complain for it.

Crying bloody murder about things like this just shows how immature so many of you mooks are, and how you either don't care to - or simply don't have the intelligence to - grasp the fact that EVE is a product owned and constantly upkept by a business. The business needs money, and ghost training is the equivalent of giving out freebies.

Lungorthin
Zoners
Superior Eve Engineering
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:05:00 - [1990]
 

I quote from your blog:
But recently we have seen a surge in this behavior in a way that we were essentially supporting and maintaining a large number of customers that weren't paying us regular subscriptions

The reason why this happened is pretty obvious.
It coincides with the introduction of the 60 days card which is more expensive and has the added bonus of giving less game time, great.

Call it the Butterfly effect if you want, you called it an "avalanche", I am not suprised by this surge.

It is a bit heavy that 'normal' gameplay requires individual players to have multiple accounts and at the same time CCP punishes financially the people who do so.

***

I used to renew my alt when ghost training was about to finish, that was my timer that said "renew now".
I am curious if an "avalanche" of no-renews will hit you now.

Rancid Oswald
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:05:00 - [1991]
 

Originally by: Borg Zorg
Originally by: Todoshi
Originally by: Borg Zorg
inviting all unsadisfied player to bring their mains and alts on lag fest to jita.
manifastacion is good way of showing how unsadisfied you are.Bring remot reping moduls and remot reping dronse.2000 unhapy users and 10000 reping dronse looks like nice protest to me.
Im on my way to jita.
See u there



See you in Jita

come to protest guys.
Let see real power of players???


Why go to a system that has a cap? /me hides

Adam Slysphere
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:05:00 - [1992]
 


Raxis Omicron
Caldari
Future Corps Limited
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:05:00 - [1993]
 

This is the final straw in the realisation of the fundamental flaw in eve. The one which at times made things interesting, but inevitably was designed purely as a revenue generating measure. This is the fact that "skills" require no actual effort at all to train, simply time and money.
In reality an individual can produce an advanced eve toon by simply spending a few hundred dollars on ETC's to convert to isk and subsequently waiting and switching skill trains as required... It is not necessary to fight, deal, and "play" the game to advance at all.

If youre going to attempt to remove 1 flaw from the system, its about time you went and completely redesigned it so that the players who actualy play, have skills, spend REAL effort and realy give a damn about the game benefit from the blood and sweat they put into it.

If youre going to take from us CCP, Return to us something, Make it fair, WE are the people who support you, WE are the reason you made this freakin game in the first place.



I love this game the way it is, even after all the stupid things you have done here and there in the name of "ballance" and "fairness" and joy in swinging the NERF BAT", But when it gets to the point that youre going to charge me a fortune so that i can train a rank 12 skill to the point that i can do something new and tell me at the same time that theres nothing i can do to help the process... Youre realy pushing your luck...

Pushing it uphill

Dont **** us off especialy when you have a competitor comming just around the corner.

Joskken Inx
the unified
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:06:00 - [1994]
 

Originally by: Vengal Seyhan
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Edited by: Ivor Gunn on 14/10/2008 00:04:27
Edited by: Ivor Gunn on 14/10/2008 00:01:11

Quote:
Ghost Training was an unintended feature


No it wasn't.

Quote:
Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive


You contradict your own knowledge base.
Pure hypocrisy.


Oh, that's pretty priceless :D
Soon to be ret-conned, I predict.

FYI, CCP on the subject of subscriptions:
I recently signed up a second account on the Power of 2 program, planning to stick to a tightly focussed six month trainging program, for Interceptors and Amarr ships that my main doesn't fly. I was always then going to be folding this second character back into my main account thereafter.

Your game is good, but not that good.

Considering that I have a set expiry time on my subscription, and no desire to run two acounts in the long run - an in game and out of game (email) subscription expiry reminder would be highly handy, so that I don't get stung with a suddenly inactive account.

PS - Is it coincidence that the Power Of 2 offer just finished? I take it your marketting people were expecting a flurry of sign-ups arising out of this, and didn't want to offer these people the discount package. Wink


Yeah I can't help but notice that too. I finally get a Power of Two account, and then this.

I don't know about the sycophants and apologists, and why they feel the need to say stupid **** like "mmm tears" and "go back to wow". I don't like being treated like ****, lied to about this game somehow having a "bug" that is so goddamn gamebreaking it needed to be fixed in hours, and ignoring real problems like your hardware, the 90 sec COSMOS respawning trillionaires, desynchs...yeah, whatever.

It's all about the bottom line now, and I guess CCP really is no different than any other game/business. It was fun, I'm tired of MMO's plain and simple. I'm done.

Oh and you'd better un**** the account page. That is not a request.

Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:07:00 - [1995]
 

Originally by: Callib Gor'Karrithe
But... oh, look at that. Ghost training is gone. Gee, would this not be a bit of foreshadowing to queued training?


No. It wouldn't.

CCP has continuously stated that they will not be adding queued training. And CCP never goes back on their wor-- oh nevermind >.>

On a more serious note, they have yet to announce the "eventuality" of such queued training to satiate the masses. I would assume if there were an appropriate time to mention they're working on it, it would be in conjunction with this change.

They, however, have not.

James Marshalll
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:07:00 - [1996]
 

Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Marius Duvall
The issue isn't that the players guide isn't a promotion (which is arguable, really) but that a supposed "bug" was listed as an intended effect therein.
No, it never was listed as an intended effect, ever, anywhere. The guide merely described the way things were. All the emorage in the world can't change documentation into proof of intent.

Of course, since this has been pointed out about seven thousand times and ignored about seven thousand times, I don't expect pointing it out again will have any effect on you "But it was in the guide!!!!11one!!" folks.


just as seven thousand times you have been told, COMPANIES DO NOT DOCUMENT BUGS IN PLAYER GUIDES SO THEY WILL USE IT UNLESS IT WAS AN INTENDED FEATURE THAT THEY WANTED YOU TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF.

Give me a break. Think about it, I mean I know your a GM Alt, but really think about it....

If I am trying to market an MMO the LAST frigging thing I want to do is tell my customers in the new user guide

"HEY! Btw here is a bug and how you can take advantage of it!"

But of course you choose to ignore that.

Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:09:00 - [1997]
 

Originally by: James Marshalll
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Marius Duvall
The issue isn't that the players guide isn't a promotion (which is arguable, really) but that a supposed "bug" was listed as an intended effect therein.
No, it never was listed as an intended effect, ever, anywhere. The guide merely described the way things were. All the emorage in the world can't change documentation into proof of intent.

Of course, since this has been pointed out about seven thousand times and ignored about seven thousand times, I don't expect pointing it out again will have any effect on you "But it was in the guide!!!!11one!!" folks.


just as seven thousand times you have been told, COMPANIES DO NOT DOCUMENT BUGS IN PLAYER GUIDES SO THEY WILL USE IT UNLESS IT WAS AN INTENDED FEATURE THAT THEY WANTED YOU TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF.

Give me a break. Think about it, I mean I know your a GM Alt, but really think about it....

If I am trying to market an MMO the LAST frigging thing I want to do is tell my customers in the new user guide

"HEY! Btw here is a bug and how you can take advantage of it!"

But of course you choose to ignore that.


Hmm... We should tell CCP to add information about how to successfully perform a logoffski to the player guide, too Smile It is certainly not an "intended feature," but it is how the system works right now.

Lucina Enyo
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:10:00 - [1998]
 

This is a product of 60 day GTCs. A simpler solution would be to scrap them and introduce only 100 day GTCs. It would have caused less upset with the customer base I am sure.

Cyberman Mastermind
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:10:00 - [1999]
 

So, the mentioning of ghost training in the user guide was an advertisment, hence it's an intended feature and shouldn't be taken away.

Then I guess this here, which is even more prominently featured, is another intended feature and should never be changed, right?

Quote:

when using Jump Clones, do NOT jump from the station where you already have a clone with implants. This is because you would leave your former body there and, as you can only have one clone per station, your oldest clone would be deleted with all its implants.



I'd say it's either a bug or lazy programming - but it's in the user guide, so it must be a feature, right?

Catherine Frasier
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:11:00 - [2000]
 

Originally by: Marius Duvall
If something is listed in the user manual saying "Hey, you can do this," it's an intended effect.
That's complete nonsense. The way training is handled (simulating constant training by updating when you log in) didn't take into account the possibility that for some of the time between log-ins your account might have been "inactive". Training and billing were on different pages, as it were.

Oops!

It was unintended and no amount of documentation can ever change that fact. Nothing short of time travel can even make it an intentional decision. If you want to argue that they accepted the way it was then sure, I agree, they did. And now they don't.

Vietone
Gallente
Caldari Securities Exchange Corporation
Miners Rebellion
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:11:00 - [2001]
 

Originally by: Mohenna
Edited by: Mohenna on 14/10/2008 15:46:33
Teh internet is broken!!11 Nobody used the wayback machine yet. I have to fix it. See the past versions of the guide in their full truth:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080212211449/http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g615.asp
http://web.archive.org/web/20080122061230/http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g615.asp
http://web.archive.org/web/20071229095941/http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g615.asp
http://web.archive.org/web/20071206164722/http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g615.asp

...That said... I support the change. PAY YOU CHEAPSKATES!! (yeah, their PR skill sux, CCP truly are players: they minimized their charisma :D)


It doesnt matter if it was in the player guide or not. They never intended it to be an option, they only stated how it worked. IF they did intend the game to function like that, it would have been in many more places than just the player guide.

I bet over half the eve community didnt even know you could ghost train. Cause I never heard of it and neither have the majority of people I know in the game. Therefore, I look at it like this, fewer people, less lag.

Ra Vhim
Black Bag Ops
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:13:00 - [2002]
 

Hrm. I am not a fan of joining whine threads, but this merit an exception.

First of all:
When people gets more they are satisfied. When people gets less they are dissatisfied.

This is a good rule about how the world often works. No matter if a change CCP do is needed or not, the crowd that feel they get less will be dissatisfied. However, I have 3 accounts and have never “Ghost Trained”, not even when I take a break for a couple of month like I am doing at the moment. Still, this change leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Most importantly regarding this change, CCP looks like lying, greedy bastards by giving us players two blogs that as far as I can see is some odd twisted attempt to fast-talk their way out of some kind of truth we are not supposed to know about. Perhaps it only is an unusual clumsy attempt to give us the news in a smooth way. Either way, I (and I suspect most others) don’t like being lied to nor be treated like a moron. A poster a dozen pages back or so summed it up nicely: Shame on you, CCP.

To give 2 days warning is simply put idiotic. As I view it, the most likely reason for this is that CCP estimated a forum threadnaught but since they already decided to go through with this, players’ opinions be damned, they waited with making the announcement until right before the patch. Beside that it gives the impression of arrogance from CCP (and/or possibly inaptitude) it kind of makes me wonder exactly what is important to CCP and the world of Eve. If it isn’t the players’ opinions, what is it?

I can only speak for myself, but I sure will continue to pay for my 3 accounts even if I am taking a break at the moment. Though this change did see to it that I don’t get more accounts, which I was pondering. However, if I in the future get so burned out that I decide to take a long Eve break and seriously play some other game instead, then it is a safe bet that I will cancel my Eve accounts and never look back. Even if Eve is a fantastic game and I trust that CCP really want to improve it and make it last, there are other games out there that are quite fun. It isn’t like it is Eve or nothing, it is Eve or something else.

To sum it up, the thing that ****es me off is the 2 blogs that shows what kind of relationship CCP have (or want to have) with the players. It sure isn’t based on respect or honesty.

SkwisgaarSkwigelf
Deliciously Vicious
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:13:00 - [2003]
 

Originally by: Vietone
Originally by: Mohenna
Edited by: Mohenna on 14/10/2008 15:46:33
Teh internet is broken!!11 Nobody used the wayback machine yet. I have to fix it. See the past versions of the guide in their full truth:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080212211449/http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g615.asp
http://web.archive.org/web/20080122061230/http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g615.asp
http://web.archive.org/web/20071229095941/http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g615.asp
http://web.archive.org/web/20071206164722/http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g615.asp

...That said... I support the change. PAY YOU CHEAPSKATES!! (yeah, their PR skill sux, CCP truly are players: they minimized their charisma :D)


It doesnt matter if it was in the player guide or not. They never intended it to be an option, they only stated how it worked. IF they did intend the game to function like that, it would have been in many more places than just the player guide.

I bet over half the eve community didnt even know you could ghost train. Cause I never heard of it and neither have the majority of people I know in the game. Therefore, I look at it like this, fewer people, less lag.


Your ignorance is not our problem.

Rancid Oswald
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:13:00 - [2004]
 

"So long, farewell, Auf wiedersehen, good bye!"

To the ragequiters !Laughing

James Marshalll
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:14:00 - [2005]
 

Originally by: Lallante
As much as I think this change is counterproductive from a revenue point of view, it does amuse me to see how many people are willing to convince THEMSELVES they have a legitimate gripe against ccps actions (eg "you said it was a feature 2 years ago" or whatever else) when the REAL and ONLY reason they are ****ed off is because it disadvantages them.....


You know what amuses me?

When a corp with a history of CCP employees cheating for them comes in here complaining about others who were using something to their advantage.

But at least CCP tried to cover it up the right way that time, they just started banning people like ********** for telling on you for account sharing. /lulz. Well wait, maybe thats what they should do now so that way they don't really have to fix the gridlock problems, or database lag.. just get rid of the userbase! Brilliant!

Suze'Rain
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:14:00 - [2006]
 

Originally by: Total Disaster
Originally by: Virgo I'Platonicus
Perhaps allow ghost training for 25 - 30% the monthly fee?

V.


how about inactive accounts train at a 50% speed (i.e. takes double as long)



now this I would support wholeheartedly, as a solution.

Pteranodon
Caldari
Rekall Incorporated
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:15:00 - [2007]
 

I was thinking about the economic situation & why the world is in such an economic mess.

It is because everybody is screwing everybody into the ground on price. We all want something for nothing & ghost training was the best form of this.

I then realised that if you have something for nothing then other aspects of economy suffer & I guess CCP got a directive to tighten its belt & get more revenue coming in.

It was good whilst it lasted & I personaly don't expect something for nothing & have never ghost trained-not worth the effort.

So, we can whinge & whine & I sit on the fench seeing both sides & I do feel sorry for the person who may be financially strained but at the end of the day it is only a game & you wont die if you cant play. I suppose everybodies concern is what happens to a dormant character-does it get deleted within 6 months of a none active subscription or what. I can see a lot of very high skilled characters going down the pan.

So I say, get used to it because the day of the free lunch is over. We can't keep on having something for nothing.

Sailon
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:15:00 - [2008]
 

Originally by: Vietone

It doesnt matter if it was in the player guide or not. They never intended it to be an option, they only stated how it worked. IF they did intend the game to function like that, it would have been in many more places than just the player guide.

I bet over half the eve community didnt even know you could ghost train. Cause I never heard of it and neither have the majority of people I know in the game. Therefore, I look at it like this, fewer people, less lag.


open your damn eyes less people = less pvp because lesser people

Innaara
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:15:00 - [2009]
 

Don't you guys get it by now?




CCP KNOWS you will renew your alts anyway. How else is this game playable?

You can nag al you want. I have core principles so 2 out of my 4 accounts wil go into deep hibernation. I've had it with this company that lies to it's customers (I don't care about those 11 euro's a month). They don't give a rats ass, I know, but if I was in Iceland for Fanfest they would have a a bunch of tomatoes thrown at them.

D4RT N3RDiUS
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:15:00 - [2010]
 

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=896834&page=2

check this outtttttttttt!!


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