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xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:46:00 - [1951]
 

Edited by: xOm3gAx on 14/10/2008 15:57:32
Wrangler i should state that you all need to read this. Seriously after reading this **** i wish i didnt renew my acct for a year. Its bull **** man plain and simple. Do i blame you? No. But this does upset me, its obviously NOT a bug and is a FEATURE there is no denying it. I understand the wallet is an issue but face reality stuff like this makes you look bad, you should have updated the player guide first and made a post telling us why in the first place. Not by calling a feature a bug.


Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans

As many of you know by now, on Wednesday, Oct 15th, CCP will put out a server update disabling "ghost training". Ghost Training was an unintended feature where unpaid accounts of EVE Online were able to continue training skills. While this allowed players to run multiple characters on a shoestring budget, in all effect, this was a bug.




Player Guide
Originally by: Player Guide

How to Train Skills

You already have some skills when you start a new character. To take those to the next level, open your character sheet (go to the upper picture on the left menu bar) and go to the Skills section. Right-click on the skill you want to train and select Train to Level X. There is also a Settings menu, which gives you different options. One of the options here is Show All Skills, which will display all the skills available in game in your sheet. If you select this option, you will see some skills with a green check mark and others with a red cross in your character sheet. The green check mark indicates that you have the prerequisites to train the skill; the red cross shows that there are still some skills you have to train before being able to acquire this particular skill.

The skills that you don't already have in your character sheet will have to be bought from the market. They are sold by ingame factions controlled by Non Player Characters (NPCs), and also re-sold by players. Sometimes, skill books are loot drops on missions, too. Some race specific skills only get sold in the space of that particular faction, and when they are sold outside the area, they are often more expensive. Therefore, if you need a Gallente skill, for example, it is advisable to check how much it is being sold for in Gallente space. After you have bought a skill, it will show up in your hangar, where you can train it via the right-click command.

You will only have to buy a skill book once - it can be trained to the next level without having to buy a new book.

Some skills can't be trained on trial accounts. Those skills are marked in the Description tab of the info on the skill book.

Skills continue training even if you are logged off, but the skill will no longer continue to train on inactive accounts (an inactive account is when you’re no longer paying the subscription, training will still continue when you’ve logged off on an subscribed account). As a result, it is a good idea to train short skills while you are playing and longer ones when you log off. If you want to switch skills, you can simply do so by starting another skill training. The points gained on the previous skill will not be lost, but you don't benefit from the training until the level is fully completed. The highest level for any skill is Level 5, but some skills also have an advanced version. Some of those advanced skills influence the same area as the basic version, others only a related area.

There is no skill point cap in EVE. You will most probably also not reach the point where you have trained all skills available, since new ones are added once in a while, and there is also a huge amount of them available. However, it is possible to max out all the skills in a certain category.

You can only train one character per account and one skill per character at the same time, but it is possible to train several ones, one after another.


Richard Aiel
Caldari
Umbra Exitium
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:46:00 - [1952]
 

active subscription request:
http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility

It looks like over the year that the population is climbing not declining, but after this news we'll see

Sailon
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:47:00 - [1953]
 

Originally by: Vietone
Some people here make no rational on why they shouldn't remove this bug. Yes its a bug, its something that I didnt even know about and it is unfair. Why should people who dont pay gain skillpoints the same as people who do?

When did they ever advertise it? Cause its definitely not listed in any obvious place or on any of their game ads. Therefore, they never did intend it to be a feature for people to get the game for. If I had known that I could have trained Industrial V for my character or Exhumer V without paying, sure, I might have done it but I didnt know about it because of the fact that they never advertised it.

So people want a solution? Fine let people continue to ghost train, but instead of training at their normal rate, make it so they train only 10% of their skillpoint they would normally get if their character was active. Make it so that every skill takes 10x longer than it would if an account is not paid for. That seems more fair if people want to ghost train. Make it so that 28 day Battleship 5 skill takes 280 days if they decide to ghost train it.


too extreme make it to the reasonal numbers

Solomon XI
Hidden Souls
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:47:00 - [1954]
 

And yet you, CCP, removed the 30-day GTC's making it HARDER for people to stay in the game. This is idiotic at best.

Weggla
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:48:00 - [1955]
 

thanks for making my consideration of restarting to pay for eve again so easy. Goodbye, hope your bank account will "balance" too.

Borg Zorg
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:49:00 - [1956]
 

inviting all unsadisfied player to bring their mains and alts on lag fest to jita.
manifastacion is good way of showing how unsadisfied you are.Bring remot reping moduls and remot reping dronse.2000 unhapy users and 10000 reping dronse looks like nice protest to me.
Im on my way to jita.
See u there

Saladin
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:50:00 - [1957]
 

I hate to sound like a fanboi, but here goes.

I played a few MMOs before EvE, and if the account went inactive there was no garantee any of your characters or your stuff stayed in the db after a few weeks. It was only 3 years into EvE that I learned that skills train while offline. Limiting skill training to paying customers makes total sense and it was the way I assumed it worked.

James Malice
Gallente
Legion Of Mad Cats
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:51:00 - [1958]
 

And I was planning on getting a second account too... you know... when you said that ghost training wasn't a bug...

Effin capitalist dogs.

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:51:00 - [1959]
 

Originally by: Venus Einstein
Originally by: Sonao
Originally by: Avon
Hey, your bug...

Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive

I found it in the player guide.

You guys better get in there and ninja-edit it.
It has been ninja-ed now!

Skills continue training even if you are logged off, but the skill will no longer continue to train on inactive accounts (an inactive account is when you’re no longer paying the subscription, training will still continue when you’ve logged off on an subscribed account).


Thanks guys!


So here we are ccp ****S at us, not even waiting until this tread explodes
or the patch is done
First time the light comes, before the fire burns

MUHAHAAAAAAA (any Lehman Bros banker hired at CCP the last weeks????)Twisted Evil
Ye gods...get a clue. The thread has already exploded. Now, please re-read the change to the guide. A ninja-change would make the guide look like inactive training never was allowed - something like "Skills continue training even if you are logged off." Instead, they used language that makes it sound like ghost training used to work, but now doesn't. Even if you don't read it that way, it's at least mentioned, and specifically states that it doesn't work now. WTF do you want from them?

Iggy H
Artifex Celestia
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:51:00 - [1960]
 

Ok, I can understand why you are doing this from a business perspective. Personally, I have multiple accounts that are ALL actively paid for, so I have not been able to "partake" of ghost training unless I forget to enter a GTC in time and lapse for a day here or there.. (yes, I think that CCP should allow training to continue for say somewhere between 2-5 days after your account expires, or possible send you a "reminder" e-mail or something)

My other concern is that there are a number of other things that currently continue to happen on Ghost accounts.
1) Data Cores. Yep, you still get data-cores, so if you are gone for a year or so, you get to cash in on data cores when you didn't pay for them
2) Market Buy / Sell orders - These also stay.. Again, I would ask for a grace period of a few days so that users don't need to re-enter all their trades if they miss the re-sub deadline. However if you are going to be fair, all market orders for a un-subbed account should also go away.

I'm also sure that there are other things I'm missing, but if you are going to disable training because they are not paying, make sure you apply it evenly across all aspects of the game.

Thanks!

SetInEdill
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:51:00 - [1961]
 

Account management is down.
https://secure.eve-online.com/AccountManMenu.aspx
Stop deleting accounts =)
Stop it!!!!1111oneone

lol, just lol

Karina Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:52:00 - [1962]
 

Originally by: Tara Yang

Which we all know is utter CR@P. There is now maintenance done on that. They just don't want people making irrational decisions.


Seems a very convenient coincidence Evil or Very Mad

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:52:00 - [1963]
 

Originally by: Richard Aiel
active subscription request:
http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility

It looks like over the year that the population is climbing not declining, but after this news we'll see


PCU for the year was in March, looks like a decline since then to me. 42711 then, 39317 PCU in the last month. I'm betting the subscription numbers have down turned a lot more. Word economics, 60 day GTCs, the game. etc etc.

BIind
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:53:00 - [1964]
 

Originally by: Annaphera
In all seriousness - I know you can't play without paying, what I want to know is why it seems to be viewed as an entitlement that you gain any benefit at all without paying. NO other game allows that.


The way WoW is setup makes it a lot easier to catch up if you jump in for a month or two to see how things are going. You get better gear easier than those who had to do attunements and stuff months ago, you can get PLed by people etc. If you return to EVE without ghost training you're looking at the same boring months of training you did when you left, at least now you can return to a char with a shiny new ship to fly if you set Cruiser V before leaving.

Todoshi
Caldari
Caldari Logistics and Supplies
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:54:00 - [1965]
 

Originally by: Borg Zorg
inviting all unsadisfied player to bring their mains and alts on lag fest to jita.
manifastacion is good way of showing how unsadisfied you are.Bring remot reping moduls and remot reping dronse.2000 unhapy users and 10000 reping dronse looks like nice protest to me.
Im on my way to jita.
See u there



See you in Jita

Cerfari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:54:00 - [1966]
 

i dont see what all the fuss is about... it feels to me like everyone was trying to cheat to get their skills up.

although, i am kinda ****ed that i did not read that i could train while not paying. I bet i would have saved myself a few $15 training them lvl 5 skills

but seriously... it could be worse ugh

LadyMaverick
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:55:00 - [1967]
 

Originally by: Saladin
I hate to sound like a fanboi, but here goes.

I played a few MMOs before EvE, and if the account went inactive there was no garantee any of your characters or your stuff stayed in the db after a few weeks. It was only 3 years into EvE that I learned that skills train while offline. Limiting skill training to paying customers makes total sense and it was the way I assumed it worked.


Then you should have read player guide more carefully in the first place... kthxbye

Emerald Cortess
Caldari
Konstrukteure der Zukunft
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:55:00 - [1968]
 

Short answer:
This sucks!

Long answer:
This sucks, ...for me and should also for CCP. I just planned to set a longer skill since my Acc is running out in a few days and come back after a month or less and have a new toy. Now i won't have a reason to reactivate my acc anymore. Now it doesn't matter if i leave eve for just a month or half a year. Right now i'm not quiet sure if i'll buy another GTC or not. But this decision does not rely on this patch (this time!)

Sarcastic answer:
Great idea! But there is more to do: AFK-Training ... people just sitting cloaked in their falcons all day long and are 'skilling'. That's not fair! I would suggest a system where u get skillpoints by killing NPC-Rats and doing missions.
Or even better and maybe more functional: Learning by doing! First, u have to buy the skill. Then u already can fit a module which needs that skill. But u can't just 'right-cklick-train-to', u actually have to use the module. So for example u gain SP in gunnery when activating a gun to a ship. Or u get better in the EM-Compensation-Skill when u have fitted a EM-Hardener and someone is shooting u with EM-Missiles.
As far as i know, this would be the first mmorpg using such system and it would make EVE very very special.




Hixxy
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:56:00 - [1969]
 

Originally by: Solomon XI
And yet you, CCP, removed the 30-day GTC's making it HARDER for people to stay in the game. This is idiotic at best.


your conclusion may be wrong.
getting rid of 30 day cards was beginging of this and i'm guessing they were proven right so this next step was implemented.

it's a different business model bit like making 1p profit on 100 sales or 10p profit on 10 sales. same profit just less work.

xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:56:00 - [1970]
 

Edited by: xOm3gAx on 14/10/2008 15:57:56
dbl

Die Unknown
Amarr
Dark Shadow Industries
Rogue Elements.
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:56:00 - [1971]
 

It's hard to not think that this decision has been influenced by the recent world-wide economic problems.

I would have thought that it's a bit daft to pull the rag under so many people's feet when so many are strugling to make the ends meet.

This is a new low for ccp

BIind
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:57:00 - [1972]
 

Originally by: Emerald Cortess
So for example u gain SP in gunnery when activating a gun to a ship. Or u get better in the EM-Compensation-Skill when u have fitted a EM-Hardener and someone is shooting u with EM-Missiles. As far as i know, this would be the first mmorpg using such system and it would make EVE very very special.


UO was like this.

Rancid Oswald
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:58:00 - [1973]
 

Simply lol at the replies....Laughing

Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:58:00 - [1974]
 

Edited by: Triksterism on 14/10/2008 15:58:08
Originally by: BIind
Originally by: Emerald Cortess
So for example u gain SP in gunnery when activating a gun to a ship. Or u get better in the EM-Compensation-Skill when u have fitted a EM-Hardener and someone is shooting u with EM-Missiles. As far as i know, this would be the first mmorpg using such system and it would make EVE very very special.


UO was like this.



As was Dark Ages

Mr Jollys
Minmatar
Night Theifs
Apotheosis of Virtue
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:58:00 - [1975]
 

I think that this should not be changed due to the precident that has been in place for 5 years.

This is a major change in the fuctionality of gameplay.

Remember what Lucas Arts/SOE did to Star Wars Galaxies.

They completely detroyed that game, and the servers are like ghost towns. Let all MMO devs and beancounters learn from SWG.

Catherine Frasier
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:59:00 - [1976]
 

Originally by: Seth Ruin
And you still failed to show anything in response to my challenge many pages back, so I'll post it again:

Find me one other "bug" or "unintended feature" in the player's manual.
I don't know of any off-hand (and have no intention of paging through the guide looking). But since the guide doesn't say anything about intent one way or the other on 99% of the game's mechanics, and since I can't read minds, how can we know what was intended and what was emergent? What I do know is that it makes no damn difference either way. Even if this was the only unintended feature documented in the guide then that just means that this was the only unintended feature documented in the guide, and so what?

Now, if you could show that CCP was explicitly using this "feature" in advertising, while it would still not show intent, it would justify some of the annoyance at this decision.

Originally by: Seth Ruin
Or, better yet, so we're on the same level: What would you consider a list of "intended effects?" The features page?
I wouldn't expect such a list, period, why would you? Why would CCP (or anyone) run through each and every aspect of the game and specify; "Meant to do that", "Just got lucky", and "Ooops"?

The guide describes how things are regardless of how they ended up that way. Reading more into it is unwarranted.

Quite simply: They say it was unintended and there is nothing which indicates that's untrue. Certainly there's nothing remotely resembling proof that it's untrue. Without proof, without evidence, all you have is your tinfoil hat/black helicopter nonsense being used to justify your annoyance at this decision by painting them as "liars".

Zurtan Bayle
Minmatar
The Wings of Maak
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:00:00 - [1977]
 

CCP, be honnest... your are planning to deploy the queue skill system, with the Certificats in support, but you can't find a technical way to stop only the next skill queued on an inactive account... right? ;)

By the way, this decision still a big mistake IMO...

-1 account for me...

Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:00:00 - [1978]
 

Edited by: Seth Ruin on 14/10/2008 16:00:19
Originally by: BIind
Originally by: Emerald Cortess
So for example u gain SP in gunnery when activating a gun to a ship. Or u get better in the EM-Compensation-Skill when u have fitted a EM-Hardener and someone is shooting u with EM-Missiles. As far as i know, this would be the first mmorpg using such system and it would make EVE very very special.


UO was like this.


Yeah... And UO is doing so well now compared to back then!
http://mmogdata.voig.com/voig/ContentList/MMOGDATA/Charts/7.ViewChart?aLanguage=en-us&a5Years=Y

Edit: clicky

Adam Slysphere
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:00:00 - [1979]
 

Originally by: Mr Jollys
I think that this should not be changed due to the precident that has been in place for 5 years.

This is a major change in the fuctionality of gameplay.

Remember what Lucas Arts/SOE did to Star Wars Galaxies.

They completely detroyed that game, and the servers are like ghost towns. Let all MMO devs and beancounters learn from SWG.


that's being a bit dramatic ... It's not like they're replacing EVE's skill based system with a class based system like WoW. ;)

ATARI BABY
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.10.14 16:01:00 - [1980]
 

Originally by: Richard Aiel
active subscription request:
http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility

It looks like over the year that the population is climbing not declining, but after this news we'll see


it will climb anyway.. maybe some loss for these days but it will climb.


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