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Igor Botanik
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:33:00 - [1921]

"We truly hope that the community will understand our actions and continue to...."
No, they are not. You sucks with that, CCP.

cu when you fix tommorows bug.

Omega Bunnys
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:34:00 - [1922]

As with any other grossly abused bugs, we should ban all offenders in the last 5 years.

Una D
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:34:00 - [1923]

Wow. Nice way to prevent canceling of subscriptions. I guess I could go to my CC company and tell them CCP charged me without my permission but that would be going to far (for now as I hop that they will take their head out of their ass and actually reconsider this crap).

Marius Duvall
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:34:00 - [1924]

Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Marius Duvall
The issue isn't that the players guide isn't a promotion (which is arguable, really) but that a supposed "bug" was listed as an intended effect therein.
No, it never was listed as an intended effect, ever, anywhere. The guide merely described the way things were. All the emorage in the world can't change documentation into proof of intent.

Of course, since this has been pointed out about seven thousand times and ignored about seven thousand times, I don't expect pointing it out again will have any effect on you "But it was in the guide!!!!11one!!" folks.

What? If something is listed in the user manual saying "Hey, you can do this," it's an intended effect.

Teram Odator Rilfur Pegastur
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:35:00 - [1925]

Funny to hear people saying this is a good thing.
I've been playing for 3 and a half years, never stoped paying, never ghost trained (have bs 5, recon 5, cloaking 5, awu 5,...) and still think this is ccp's worst mistake. When I get really tired and want to take a break, leaving a long skill training will be an incentive for me to return. I guess no more.

On top of that, the way they treated us... like we were small children that can be lied to and manipulated... oh well. Never thought I would see the day tbh.

I will keep playing this game, love it too much to quit and have amazing friends in game. But I tell you this:
CCP -> Kiss my ass
FanFest -> What for?
EveMag -> Screw it
Spaceship Models -> You must be joking...
Everything else you do out of game -> **** you

Sir Atkinson
Mercenary Forces
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:35:00 - [1926]

I CBA to read thru more than the first 5 pages and I found no reply from CCP here. C'mon CCP get your fingers out. All of them. This is by far the most unpopular "fix" EVER!!!!

Just take it back and say sorry for the inconvienience.

Posted - 2008.10.14 15:35:00 - [1927]

Originally by: Total Disaster
I'm pretty sure that the day I die, all I can think about is how my char had 5mil SP less than it would have with a skillqueue.

Yes, sometimes I get the feeling I shouldn't have bothered with learning skills at all, a 6hr skill which takes 8 hrs because I can't be bothered to wake up for it etc.

Ayato kun
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:36:00 - [1928]

Originally by: chotaire
Fictionary Dev Blog Post from ccp whoever:

Dear players, due to recent financing issues related to national problems we had to decide to disable ghost training for a limited amount of time. Due to our local banks unable to give us the necessary loans to expand our network and hire more programmers to implement the features you people desire, we saw no other chance doing so.

But please be asured this is only a temporary change, as we will rethink our priority list and reward everyone of you with a great new feature in return to be implemented before christmas:

Skill queueing goes in effect with the next major patch in the second week of December, at the same time ghost training will be back available to everyone. However skill queueing will only work if you have an active subscription.

We sincelery hope you understand this decision as we are forced to refinance immediate investments necessary to implement new features that CSM has requested to see available soon, as much as improving our network, hardware and database concept to cope with lag on fleet battles.

Furthermore, we will bring back 30 day time codes sometime next year. We hope this is a good compromise for all of us and we are looking forward to your feedback to discuss this matter before it goes into effect sometime soon.

Best Regards
CCP whoever

-3 accounts until this.

Posted - 2008.10.14 15:37:00 - [1929]

"unintended bug" ? yeah, right.
and what about contracts or market orders which can last months?
will they be put on hold too?

no, guys, it's not a bug. it's called 'programming'.

i never ghost trained, simply cause i could afford ETCs for isk relatively cheap.
now it has changed and i'll be damned to pay over 350-400M isk / 2 months of this bugged to hell game.

Manumission Manufacturing
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:37:00 - [1930]

This is, as someone previously mentioned, disingenuous.
CCP's reputation relies on it's attention to the customer's experience and this can be seen as nothing other than an attempt to prevent people from taking a break. Well, CCP, people will take the breaks - they just might not have a reason to come back any more.

If you players want to continue with this game - apply to your CSM rep and have them put it to CCP as a matter of importance.

Why the venom? I was about to lapse on the 20th and set Cruiser V training. As it is, now I am just going to lapse, with no reason to return to the game.

No - you can't have my stuff, I'm going to leave it scattered throughout as many stations as I can in revenge for having first my mining cans "Tidied" then my training nerfed.

Slackers United
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:37:00 - [1931]

don't you all see? It DOES have everything to do with Balance!!! Their Bank Balance! ;)

Eve Engineering Operations
Eve Engineering
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:38:00 - [1932]

When you walk into a store and they offer you a free piece of candy from a bowl, it's okay to take one. If you take half the bowl then you better expect them to take it away. If you cry about it then you're just beyond pathetic.

I personally hope every single person that's crying over a lost freebie that got abused actually does leave. Go play WoW where you belong. Less lag for me.

Tag Ibby
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:38:00 - [1933]

Serious Question CCP.

Did you talk to a lawyer before doing this?

As a Law student myself, I decided to ask some professors and lawyers who I work for about the obligations you may be responsible for.

You are a provider of a good or service ( though some would say your service is laughable at best) and subject to the UCC (Uniform Comercial Code) in the United States as you do significant business here.

You have a boiler plate terms of service agreement that has no way to be shown to have actually been read and thus highly unlikely to be upheld under court scrutiney ( there are numerous cases on record for this, mostly with computer programs, cell phones and insurance companies being sued.)

Perhaps most significantly you ran a promotion encouraging the purchase of second accounts. I dont have the numbers as to how many people took advantage of this offer, but those who did so , did so based on the current rules and features of your player guide. Many of those who took advantage of your offer did so with the knowledge that it was perfectly legal and in fact a feature of your palyer guide that they could ghost train one of the accounts when the time came.

and now you have modified the product you previously sold. Seems very much like a bad faith act.

I think that those who did the power of two offer should seek to be refunded and under the UCC, CCP would have to comply.

for the rest of us who didnt take advantage of the POT option, CCP should consider that this change should be made for each person at the time of the expiration of their account. otherwise we are paying for a service that was not agreed to, and again the boiler plate Terms of Service Agreement you have to click "I agree" on before you play is all CCP has to stand on to defend itself from breach of contract. and as ive stated before, in a case where we payed for the game before the terms of service are signed off on. The terms of service are shaky at best when viewed in court.

anyway, I think if CCP is being honest and this is truly a server load issue, they should have thought their options through a bit better

and for those that dont understeld jurisdictional law. CCP can be hled responsible in US even though they are an Icelandic country because the goods and service they provide make contact with so many american jurisdictions.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:38:00 - [1934]

Originally by: Adam Reed
Originally by: Moon Kitten
Originally by: Adam Reed
What utter nonsense, how can people be so blinkered as to think that there's any commercial benefit in CCP allowing people to train skills like this? They are a company trying to make a profit, and as much as I'm in favour of smashing capitalism if you're going to have it you have to accept that companies will do what they can to maximse profits.

Frankly I didn't know that this 'ghost training' existed and was surprised to hear that it did, and has lasted so long. To the people moaning about this change, shut up and pay like the rest of us, or sod off and play Guild Wars. Fair play to CCP I say.

Stop thinking about the quarterly financial report and start thinking more long term. Perhaps in terms of years.

What? They are a company, a profit-making company. Why should they provide a service to people who aren't paying them? Justify that in any other industry and I'll pay attention.

If your point is that allowing it will help them somewhere down the line, you've lost me, I don't see how it would. The board of CCP will have considered that when they made the decision and wouldn't have done it if it's likely to impact future profits.

The point is that this will make them profit this month. This will lose them profit next month, and the month after, and in pretty short order lose them money over all. They actually don't have to provide any service to people with inactive accounts training that they don't provide to people with inactive accounts already (that is maintain a database record at the cost of a fraction of a cent).

People who stop paying, can not login. They can't change skills. They don't get any of the service. All that happens is that when they PAY to resubscribe, the last thing they were training, has finished. That's it.

It requires them to pay. Money. For This. Thing. That costs CCP nothing.

Posted - 2008.10.14 15:38:00 - [1935]

Originally by: Kalmanaka
When you walk into a store and they offer you a free piece of candy from a bowl, it's okay to take one. If you take half the bowl then you better expect them to take it away. If you cry about it then you're just beyond pathetic.

I personally hope every single person that's crying over a lost freebie that got abused actually does leave. Go play WoW where you belong. Less lag for me.

It's actually less lag when they ghost train too.

Tara Yang
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:39:00 - [1936]

All in all it is an epic fail that ghost training was stated as a feature and used as a positive thing. And then later on saying it's a bug. (I know has been said a million times already in this thread). But even more so is the fact that they ninja edited after people pointed it out to CCP. But the biggest one is the fact that you can not even log in and change something on your account details and saying

Originally by: My account message
The EVE-online website is undergoing maintenance.
We are sorry for any inconvenience caused.

Which we all know is utter CR@P. There is now mainenance done on that. They just don't want people making irradicat desscions.

Fron Arran
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:39:00 - [1937]

Thin end of the wedge?

How long before we see "Accounts dormant for more than 3 consecutive months will be deleted to free up database space" ?

Borg Zorg
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:39:00 - [1938]

well lets disobey in game.
Lets set few systems to bring down permanently for 3 days.
Take your chars there,fill the system whith let say 2000 ppl and fit rr dronse and moduls and just lag the hell out of game.
jita coud be nice place.
If we all bring our mains in jita it relese tons of dronse and activate rr moduls ccp will see what r real problems to solve in this game.
And will see that u canot ignor and lie ppl who r actualy paying thier products.
so guys start moving your mains and alts to jita.
Im on my way now......
see you all there

Sebiestor Sid
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:39:00 - [1939]

Either way you argue it, it is pretty clear that this 'bug fix' will result in fewer alt subscriptions and also keep players from returning after breaks.

I think that puts the Eve Economy and the game itself into decline.

We are all going to lose friends, and some of us will struggle as key business contacts and market opportunities we have already invested in disappear. I don't think it will take a frustrated player base long to realize that this is more like a submarine sim with some really WOW-ishly absurd features.

Bad move.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:40:00 - [1940]

Here is my modified version of this devblog:

"Hello capsuleers, we at CCP have in the past had a genuine concern for our playerbase - we listened intently to your wishes and had content especially made to keep you, the gamer entertained. We realize our training system was a bit boring in the past so we had the option of training with an inactive account. However, this is now going to disappear. The more users we have, the less each user is worth to us, particularly his or her opinion. We're sick and tired of hearing all your whining so the bonuses you used to get to stay in this game are gonna go away, that's for being ungrateful. And if you cancel your subscription - we won't miss you, in fact with you gone it just means less whiners. We're not sure if we will make less or more money from this, but good riddance if you quit EVE because of this removal of training with an inactive account."

United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:41:00 - [1941]

Originally by: Triksterism
Originally by: Annaphera
Originally by: Triksterism

You're missing the point. Not everyone ghost trains their level 5's. However, it is a popular thing to do when people want to take a break from eve. People should have the option. It is what CCP promoted and it is what has attracted many people to the game.

Great. Let them take a break from Eve. And like any other service, they get NONE of the benefits the paying customers do while they are gone! Everyone acts like this was an entitlement...that you should be entitled to some perk without paying. Bullcookies.

Oh, and yet again...the flippin' game manual is NOT a promotion! I'd also like to see a survey that asks people's primary reason for starting to play Eve - while I'd bet that offline skill gain would make the top three, I'd lay money that inactive skill gain wouldn't. Or maybe people are bigger parasites than I want to believe...

Do people on WoW continue to get "sleep xp" when their accounts are inactive? Just wondering.

The thing here though, Annaphera, is that people can still train a skill but the trade off is they can't play without paying. Unfortunatly there are those who abuse it to farm isk.
No...the minute you stop paying for WoW, rest XP stops. Not to mention that there is a sizable percentage of the population that can't get rest XP, and so get no benefit at all (any toon with max level). Makes Eve look pretty good by comparison.

In all seriousness - I know you can't play without paying, what I want to know is why it seems to be viewed as an entitlement that you gain any benefit at all without paying. NO other game allows that. Eve did, but now it's gone too far, and they are going to have to stop.

I can understand people being disappointed, and even a bit of irritation at the short notice, but I can't understand the sheer level of rage over this. If every ad you saw while browsing the web listed this as a selling point, or even mentioned it at all, I'd get it. If CCP mentioned it in their 'Power of 2' promotion page as something they thought you should do with a second account, the emotions here would be understandable. Instead, it's a few words buried in the player's guide. CCP has the right to change game function in any way they like, when ever they like; most of those changes will mess with something in the players' guide. The players guide doesn't list or comment on intent. Why has no one ever accused them of lying for it before? Not that it is lying, but why is it carted out and held out as proof that CCP lies only now?

Its the sheer magnitude of the reaction that baffles me.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:41:00 - [1942]

Originally by: Tag Ibby
Serious Question CCP.

Did you talk to a lawyer before doing this?

Pretty sure it was a lawyer they talked to.

Because it wasn't a DBA.
It wasn't an economist.
It wasn't someone in marketing.
It wasn't someone that plays the game.

They can legally do this, if you dispute this, you need to study law more. All you pay for is the right to pay them. They don't even have to have the server available for you to login, ever.

There is nothing wrong with them doing this from a legal point of view.

Every other point of view however.........

Gorek Loc
Rising Ashes Inc.
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:41:00 - [1943]

Introduce multiple account discount for your loyal customers!

'ghost-training' will be reduced by 50% since people can actually afford to have multiple aco****s running!

Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:42:00 - [1944]

Since I started playing Eve real life issues combined with the fact that I sometimes just need a break from the game have caused me to put my subscription on hold several times. Because of this "Ghost training" was one of my favorite features of the game. I could put a long skill in the oven and have something to look forward to when I came back.

On more than one occasion, having something new to try out is what drew me back into the game. I am certain I would not have reactivated my account had this feature (Yes, Feature!) not been in place. In fact, I probably would not have started playing in the fist place.

As of a few months ago, my main is on a year sub (which I'm starting to regret) but my alt is not. If training that character is to become more expensive, I may have to let the account go.

Lately Ive had little desire to play Eve. CCP has been busy making ham handed changes and ignoring their customers. Now they have clearly demonstrated a willingness to screw their customers over and lie about their reasons for doing so. This kinda bull***t just kills my appetite for the game.

Posted - 2008.10.14 15:43:00 - [1945]

Edited by: LadyMaverick on 14/10/2008 15:50:01
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

May this picture echo throughtout the time forever.

Gorek Loc
Rising Ashes Inc.
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:43:00 - [1946]

I guess the next thing they will introduce is a deletion of accounts that are not active for more than a month!

A sure way to lose customers, which seems to be their plan anyway. They want to ruin their economy? It would look bad if CCP was the only company in Iceland not close to financial ruin!

Caldari Securities Exchange Corporation
Miners Rebellion
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:45:00 - [1947]

Some people here make no rational on why they shouldn't remove this bug. Yes its a bug, its something that I didnt even know about and it is unfair. Why should people who dont pay gain skillpoints the same as people who do?

When did they ever advertise it? Cause its definitely not listed in any obvious place or on any of their game ads. Therefore, they never did intend it to be a feature for people to get the game for. If I had known that I could have trained Industrial V for my character or Exhumer V without paying, sure, I might have done it but I didnt know about it because of the fact that they never advertised it.

So people want a solution? Fine let people continue to ghost train, but instead of training at their normal rate, make it so they train only 10% of their skillpoint they would normally get if their character was active. Make it so that every skill takes 10x longer than it would if an account is not paid for. That seems more fair if people want to ghost train. Make it so that 28 day Battleship 5 skill takes 280 days if they decide to ghost train it.

Posted - 2008.10.14 15:45:00 - [1948]

Next they remove market orders from player who are inactive and then they remove ability to buy game time with isk.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:45:00 - [1949]

Originally by: Annaphera
CCP has the right to change game function in any way they like, when ever they like; most of those changes will mess with something in the players' guide. The players guide doesn't list or comment on intent. Why has no one ever accused them of lying for it before? Not that it is lying, but why is it carted out and held out as proof that CCP lies only now?

Its the sheer magnitude of the reaction that baffles me.

Obviously they have that right. I don't dispute that. They can do anything with the game, it is theirs. We don't own it. We just pay to continue to maybe once in a while think about being allowed to login.

They're lying not in the players guide, but in their reasons for making the change.

You need to wake up and pay attention if you think this is the first, or even fiftieth time they have lied to their player base and treated us like idiots. Because either they think we are, or they are.

Knights of the Dark
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:46:00 - [1950]

Edited by: Mohenna on 14/10/2008 15:46:33
Teh internet is broken!!11 Nobody used the wayback machine yet. I have to fix it. See the past versions of the guide in their full truth:

...That said... I support the change. PAY YOU CHEAPSKATES!! (yeah, their PR skill sux, CCP truly are players: they minimized their charisma :D)

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