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Marius Duvall
Amarr
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:07:00 - [1861]
 

Originally by: Wygg
Originally by: Triksterism
You're missing the point. Not everyone ghost trains their level 5's. However, it is a popular thing to do when people want to take a break from eve. People should have the option. It is what CCP promoted and it is what has attracted many people to the game.



The converse is Why should you get Carrier V without paying for it?


Because it's been touted as a feature in the players guide for the past 5 years.

Chris Stormrider
Gallente
IDEON ANDRON
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:07:00 - [1862]
 

I convinced my gf to create an account and after playing for a month or two, RL took over. She has since been training skills on her account only. She hasn't missed a day in paying for that account. Does that mean she is ghost training or not? I fail to see how she has gained an unfair advantage over other player, but apparently she has, since she has been advancing her character because she only logs-in every month or so (and putting the servers under much pressure with her intense skill training, also causing lag in jita and in big fleet battles, giving small kids AIDS and exhaling CO2 thus: global warming)

/me shruggs

Karma Kahn
Amarr
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:09:00 - [1863]
 

Hmm the my account section of the site is under maintenance...lol

Jorel
Junkyard Gunners
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:09:00 - [1864]
 

Originally by: Adam Slysphere
Originally by: Jorel
Originally by: Adam Reed
Originally by: Moon Kitten
Originally by: Adam Reed
What utter nonsense, how can people be so blinkered as to think that there's any commercial benefit in CCP allowing people to train skills like this? They are a company trying to make a profit, and as much as I'm in favour of smashing capitalism if you're going to have it you have to accept that companies will do what they can to maximse profits.

Frankly I didn't know that this 'ghost training' existed and was surprised to hear that it did, and has lasted so long. To the people moaning about this change, shut up and pay like the rest of us, or sod off and play Guild Wars. Fair play to CCP I say.

Stop thinking about the quarterly financial report and start thinking more long term. Perhaps in terms of years.


What? They are a company, a profit-making company. Why should they provide a service to people who aren't paying them? Justify that in any other industry and I'll pay attention.

If your point is that allowing it will help them somewhere down the line, you've lost me, I don't see how it would. The board of CCP will have considered that when they made the decision and wouldn't have done it if it's likely to impact future profits.


Very easy, automotive industry. I paid $25,000 for my car, in cash. My car is insured etc. If I decide I'm going out of country for a couple of months I don't want to pay full insurance cost while my car is sitting in the garage and waiting for me, so I call the insurance company and only put fire and theft coverage, at the same time I take my car into the shop and get my mechanic to do some upgrades (I needed a bigger turbo, injectors, fuel rail etc) [this would be like buying skill books and training them]. So when I come back from vacation in 2 months, I've just saved some money by not paying full insurance and have invested that money into upgrades for my car.

Both the insurance company and my shop have still gotten my money (in this case CCP is both, as the isk spent on skills may have been acquired through GTC sales etc. and if they charged some minimum fee of no more than $5/month for skill training). This way everyone walks away a winner, but alas, they decided to stick it in our poopers for using a feature that has been in the game for over 5 years.

It will most certainly impact active players in the future, I for one was training a character for my friend to use when he quits WoW. New players will be less likely to acquire a character with ISK (via GTC sales) since there won't be as many characters for sale etc.

I guess I'm not a happy camper, because CCP has just made a liar out of me to all those people whom I recommended the game to, based on this feature (sorry CCP, its hax/bug/error/omission etc.)

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


Difference being that your car is your property ... Let's say you're renting that car or still making payments on it like you're doing with your EVE character. If you went out of town and stopped making payments, do you think they're going to let you hang onto that car or repo it?

Everybody wants something for nothing, and that's what Ghost Trainers were doing.


I realize the EULA reasons that all virtual items are property of CCP etc. That being said, if I didn't 'feel' that I owned my character, they would never have gotten any money out of me. If I was renting a car I would pay for the time I used it and it would remain the same car the next time I rented it, but there would be maintenance done on it in the interim, I would have fresh oil, washer fluid etc.

You point is void.

Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:09:00 - [1865]
 

Originally by: Jel Ting
Originally by: Mriss
Originally by: Jel Ting


So once again play the game, dont power level without paying. If you want to train and do whatever fine, just now you have to pay like the rest of us.




Never ever heard of anybody who could "train and do whatever" without actually paying.

Are you actually missing the whole point here.


I don't think so... Train and play, train and don't play that is the whatever, go jack-off to Marcia Brady whatever floats your canoe. I don't think getting something that other people pay for at a discount is fair. Hell I'll go on the record again and say I think this whole alt thing is out of hand, some day it will be 2 guys playing Eve and 30K toons logged in. I say they should get rid of alts and have 3 pricing packages, One for one trainable character per account, another price with 2 trainable characters per account and a 3rd option with all 3 characters able to train concurrently. However you can only have one logged in at a time. And skill queueing of course. I'm sick of guys with 10 alts frankly, I want to play with other people and depend on them for scouting etc. Not some guy with lots of cash and and 10 alts mining in 0.0 with scouts in adjacent systems. At this rate Eve will be 1 guy with 30k alts in 5 years :p



Well, I can agree with you on the alt thing, people with too many accounts just doesn't sit well with me for some reason.

Adam Slysphere
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:09:00 - [1866]
 

Originally by: Chris Stormrider
I convinced my gf to create an account and after playing for a month or two, RL took over. She has since been training skills on her account only. She hasn't missed a day in paying for that account. Does that mean she is ghost training or not? I fail to see how she has gained an unfair advantage over other player, but apparently she has, since she has been advancing her character because she only logs-in every month or so (and putting the servers under much pressure with her intense skill training, also causing lag in jita and in big fleet battles, giving small kids AIDS and exhaling CO2 thus: global warming)

/me shruggs


If she's paying, then she's not ghost training and that's not the issue.


IR Scoutar
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:10:00 - [1867]
 

Originally by: Seth Ruin
Originally by: chotaire
Originally by: IR Scoutar
Originally by: Koyama Ise
CCP before you go bankrupt and lose your servers... release the source code...



why the hell would you want the source code
what you want is the IP or a free license to the eve universe



Most useless and nonsense post of this thread, congratulations ;)

Far from it.

IP in this context refers to "Intellectual Property," and "license" in this context refers to the legal right to use said intellectual property...

Source code will only tell you how the servers work. Without a license, you're not legally allowed to do anything with the source. Hell, even open-source software has a license (GPL and such).



Or, y'know, you can just sit there and look at hundreds of thousands (if not over a million) lines of code...



Ty Seth for keeping me from explaining that in a less kindly fassion than you did Very Happy

as for

Originally by: ATARI BABY

source code mean private servers. private servers mean free play.


only if it is released under such a license that allows free use

but thats still ignoring the problem of needing a rather wealthy entity to begin again sotospeak
not everybody can go and rent a 100 servers out of the blue and give them to the comunity out of the kindness of their hearts

thats why release IP -> company picks up -> new release 2009/2010 EvE : The Third Genesis Laughing

Jel Ting
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:10:00 - [1868]
 

Originally by: Arestan
-2 accounts.

Take care, CCP.


See yah, don't forget to shut off your lasers before you leave.

Signaldog
Gallente
Cloak and Daggers
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:10:00 - [1869]
 

ISIAM,

STOP SPAMMING THE BLOG PLEASE, THAT'S JUST A WASTE OF TIME.

Domania
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:11:00 - [1870]
 

Edited by: Domania on 14/10/2008 15:12:46
Originally by: Triksterism

I don't know about you, but if I were to train carrier to 5, the length of the skill would be nagging at the back of my head a lot. Everytime I log in "Dammit! 64 days, grrr!"

It's a good thing I got to train this skill using that featu........."bug" CCP had in the game for 5 years.


EDIT: Uh ho looks like PR didn't want to look like a ass and ninja edited it just in time!Hopefully someone got a picture of it for the records.

Karma Kahn
Amarr
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:11:00 - [1871]
 

Originally by: ISIAM
I'm Sorry for all the devs, artist, programmers, management, and all other staff that may lose their jobs when C.C.P has to cut back on employees, because of this choice to change their own rules to stay afloat. I do realize That for C.C.P. to have come to this conclusion, It's very infrastructure must be under great stain. I will not speculate as to weather or not this may be the beginning of the end for C.C.P. , But I will say It's so for EVE. I hope That those at C.C.P. responsible for this decision realize Their mistake and move swiftly to right it. I for one would settle for Higher rates or some "else", but to change the very bones that call many to EVE is simply stupid. So in conclusion, I would like all that Find this decision a bad one, spread the word to your friends and corp mates to write, E-mail, and call C.C.P. and let them know, don't just do what we always do and just let it go by the way side. we as consumers do have voice and if they laugh at you then speak with your money. sadly yours, Joel "ISIAM" Carter


nah letem burn in hell for the pathetic decline in the game from rmr till today.. ccp might even try to pip sony for the mmo pariah crown...(A pipe dream but one can wish)..lol

Venus Einstein
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:11:00 - [1872]
 

Originally by: Sonao
Originally by: Avon
Hey, your bug...

Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive

I found it in the player guide.

You guys better get in there and ninja-edit it.
It has been ninja-ed now!

Skills continue training even if you are logged off, but the skill will no longer continue to train on inactive accounts (an inactive account is when you’re no longer paying the subscription, training will still continue when you’ve logged off on an subscribed account).


Thanks guys!


So here we are ccp ****S at us, not even waiting until this tread explodes
or the patch is done
First time the light comes, before the fire burns

MUHAHAAAAAAA (any Lehman Bros banker hired at CCP the last weeks????)Twisted Evil

BIind
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:12:00 - [1873]
 

Originally by: CDLoon
And note : likely a lot of isk gets farmed by skilling up ghost chars and selling them.


There will be a lot more ISK farmed with other methods now to pay for all the ghost chars.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:13:00 - [1874]
 

I don't see what the EULA has to do with this. There's no disputing CCP's 'right' to do this. They can do anything, delete everyone's stuff, anything. This is merely a question of the impact is has on the people that pay money to continue to play the game, or to play the game again, etc. If CCP do something that negatively affects their relationship with their players and their bottom line as well, it wouldn't be fair to them to just quietly stop playing now would it?

Regardless of what you think about the change, being intentionally or unintentionally (not sure which is worse) LIED TO by CCP about their reasons for a change, simply does not sit well.

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:13:00 - [1875]
 

Originally by: Triksterism

You're missing the point. Not everyone ghost trains their level 5's. However, it is a popular thing to do when people want to take a break from eve. People should have the option. It is what CCP promoted and it is what has attracted many people to the game.

Great. Let them take a break from Eve. And like any other service, they get NONE of the benefits the paying customers do while they are gone! Everyone acts like this was an entitlement...that you should be entitled to some perk without paying. Bullcookies.

Oh, and yet again...the flippin' game manual is NOT a promotion! I'd also like to see a survey that asks people's primary reason for starting to play Eve - while I'd bet that offline skill gain would make the top three, I'd lay money that inactive skill gain wouldn't. Or maybe people are bigger parasites than I want to believe...

CIA1
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:13:00 - [1876]
 

Ok , sorry just wanted to be heard.

EightNie
Aggressive Takeovers
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:14:00 - [1877]
 

Edited by: EightNie on 14/10/2008 15:14:53
Old news.

Karina Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:14:00 - [1878]
 

Originally by: Annaphera

In fact, if you are not doing those things, how are you going to be able (without resorting to a EULA violation) to use that shiny new toy your long skill enables?



Just buy ISK with GTC's like so many people seem to do. No need to breach the EULA at all.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:15:00 - [1879]
 

Originally by: chotaire
Fictionary Dev Blog Post from ccp whoever:

Dear players, due to recent financing issues related to national problems we had to decide to disable ghost training for a limited amount of time. Due to our local banks unable to give us the necessary loans to expand our network and hire more programmers to implement the features you people desire, we saw no other chance doing so.

But please be asured this is only a temporary change, as we will rethink our priority list and reward everyone of you with a great new feature in return to be implemented before christmas:

Skill queueing goes in effect with the next major patch in the second week of December, at the same time ghost training will be back available to everyone. However skill queueing will only work if you have an active subscription.

We sincelery hope you understand this decision as we are forced to refinance immediate investments necessary to implement new features that CSM has requested to see available soon, as much as improving our network, hardware and database concept to cope with lag on fleet battles.

Furthermore, we will bring back 30 day time codes sometime next year. We hope this is a good compromise for all of us and we are looking forward to your feedback to discuss this matter before it goes into effect sometime soon.

Best Regards
CCP whoever



t
h
i
s

do it.

Gorek Loc
Rising Ashes Inc.
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:15:00 - [1880]
 

I am sorry to hear that you cancel a good feature in the game.

It was intended, as someone states from your own player guide.

If it weren't for that you disabled your secure-network, I would have already cancelled 3 accounts. Too bad I can't cancel my FanFest trip too. But I am sure there are a lot of good shops in Reykjavik to spend the time in on a weekend.

If you disable one feature while accounts are inactive, I suggest you disable ALL features, like market orders, reserach agents, contracts, pos fuel-consumption, etc. Not just a 5 year old feature 'that was unintended from the start', but still managed to get written into the player guide!

To the players: Have fun playing 23/7, this may be an excuse for me to get rid of this addiction Neutral

ISIAM
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:15:00 - [1881]
 

Ok, sorry just wanted to be heard.

Silvia t'Nias
Paramilitary Skanks
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:15:00 - [1882]
 

I like the way CCP has taken some of the half a dozen most commonly repeated complaints in this (and the previous) thread and given clear, in-depth answers to them. Answers they had time to prepare beforehand, knowing which complaints to expect over this move.

Meanwhile, at the other end of Lala-Land, free princesses and Unicorns for everyone!

Joao Duarte
Selflessness
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:16:00 - [1883]
 

My word on this: I'm against it. Probably CCP will lose money in the long term, as these alt accounts will be cancelled, resulting in a (big) reduction in subscriptions in the long term.

Marius Duvall
Amarr
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:16:00 - [1884]
 

Originally by: Annaphera
Originally by: Triksterism

You're missing the point. Not everyone ghost trains their level 5's. However, it is a popular thing to do when people want to take a break from eve. People should have the option. It is what CCP promoted and it is what has attracted many people to the game.

Great. Let them take a break from Eve. And like any other service, they get NONE of the benefits the paying customers do while they are gone! Everyone acts like this was an entitlement...that you should be entitled to some perk without paying. Bullcookies.

Oh, and yet again...the flippin' game manual is NOT a promotion! I'd also like to see a survey that asks people's primary reason for starting to play Eve - while I'd bet that offline skill gain would make the top three, I'd lay money that inactive skill gain wouldn't. Or maybe people are bigger parasites than I want to believe...


The issue isn't that the players guide isn't a promotion (which is arguable, really) but that a supposed "bug" was listed as an intended effect therein.

Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:16:00 - [1885]
 

Originally by: Annaphera
Originally by: Triksterism

You're missing the point. Not everyone ghost trains their level 5's. However, it is a popular thing to do when people want to take a break from eve. People should have the option. It is what CCP promoted and it is what has attracted many people to the game.

Great. Let them take a break from Eve. And like any other service, they get NONE of the benefits the paying customers do while they are gone! Everyone acts like this was an entitlement...that you should be entitled to some perk without paying. Bullcookies.

Oh, and yet again...the flippin' game manual is NOT a promotion! I'd also like to see a survey that asks people's primary reason for starting to play Eve - while I'd bet that offline skill gain would make the top three, I'd lay money that inactive skill gain wouldn't. Or maybe people are bigger parasites than I want to believe...


Do people on WoW continue to get "sleep xp" when their accounts are inactive? Just wondering.

The thing here though, Annaphera, is that people can still train a skill but the trade off is they can't play without paying. Unfortunatly there are those who abuse it to farm isk.

Adam Slysphere
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:16:00 - [1886]
 

Originally by: Jorel


I realize the EULA reasons that all virtual items are property of CCP etc. That being said, if I didn't 'feel' that I owned my character, they would never have gotten any money out of me. If I was renting a car I would pay for the time I used it and it would remain the same car the next time I rented it, but there would be maintenance done on it in the interim, I would have fresh oil, washer fluid etc.

You point is void.


Just because you feel like you own your character doesn't make it so ... You're still basically playing with CCP's property and if you want to do that, then you need to pay for it.

You are having maintenance done. The servers are being taken care of, content is being added, bug fixes are being put in. What you're wanting is your character to progress while you're not having to spend any time or money on that character. How does that make any sense?

If you want to ghost train, then you should have to spent some money ... Just like if you still want insurance on your car you have to pay for it.

Ratamatahata
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:16:00 - [1887]
 

Now additionally I cant cancel my subscription because subscription page is under maintenance. Shocked

Ratio Legis
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:17:00 - [1888]
 

Originally by: Adam Slysphere

They're not upping the subscription fee, they're just closing a loop hole that players have been using to improve their characters without paying for the game. Which probably has gotten to be more of a problem since they started allowing characters to be bought and sold.

Hey you're right, I shouldn't be telling the guy what to do with his money. It's best not to try and help people by making a suggestion and let them be idiots and hurt themselves. I say remove the safety warning from all products and let Darwinism take over.

No matter if you call it a bug or a loophole, it used to be a fact in the game for 5 years and people were counting on it. With the "loophole" closed, you can do the exact same thing but you need to pay for it. If needing to pay more in order to get the same service is not upping the price, I don't know what is.
If being able to skill up without paying til your current skill fills up is a loophole, how would you call forcing players to pay the full price of playing AND skilling up if they only need to do the passive skilling part?
If they want to make players pay, then instituting a separate tariff for just skilling is a much more sensible solution.

And you are not putting a safety label here in this topic, you are basically telling people that if they are poor, they can go shove it since they have no place in Eve with its updated prices - which they have already figured for themselves with all the "zomg i quit" posts here.

Midas Man
Caldari
Dzark Innovations
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:18:00 - [1889]
 

Originally by: Adam Slysphere
Originally by: Triksterism
Originally by: Adam Slysphere
Originally by: Lag
This change is complete crap.

Why should I pay for a months time that my character will not be able to do anything?


it is doing something. It's learning a new skill ...


Which is basically just a clock ticking while you take a break from the game. No bandwidth use and anyone is free to do it.


As someone stated earlier: Why should a character gain in value when there's no money being spent on said character?

What other service in the world allows you to use it without being paid for in a consistent manor? Does the phone company not bill you on the days you don't make any phone calls? Does your ISP not charge your for the days you don't serf the web? You're receiving a service and your character is progressing. You should have to pay for said service.



Fair enough but if you had a deal that when you signed were told You only pay line rental when you make a call.

Then 3 months later you get a memo say the we will now charge line rental for everyday even if you dont make a call the offer we give you was a typo. im sure youd be a bit ****ed off. now if the contract you signed says we have the right do as we please when we please. you have no case to argue.

Is this fair business practise no. And nor is what CCP are doing

An the 2000+ post is just proving to them how much they are hurting the player base who will reduce account or emoquit.

So all in all its a Lose/Lose for CCP

Wygg
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Paxton Federation
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:19:00 - [1890]
 

The easy solution to this whole problem is really quite simple.

Prohibit the sale of any character that's been inactive for a set percentage of their lifespan.

25%? 50%? 75%? Something could be worked out. It would stop the farming of characters simply for ISK generation and allow people with RL issues the ability to still reap a reward. Spend X% of the time with the account/characters inactive and you can't sell them. Sounds like a compromise.

Sure it would be nice to be able to train three characters simultaneously. Multi-skill training would be nifty and a training queue would be a boon. That having been said, the other side of the argument begs why you shouldn't have to play a character who's training a long skill?

This coming from a guy who's got quite a few skills at V and who hasn't gone inactive for them.

(And to all the peeps bemoaning what a "weak" or "mediocre" game Eve is ... why don't you just quit, then? Really. Just go.)


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