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Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:54:00 - [1831]
 

Originally by: Signaldog
Originally by: Triksterism
Edited by: Triksterism on 14/10/2008 14:50:16
Originally by: Wygg
Originally by: Triksterism
You're missing the point. Not everyone ghost trains their level 5's. However, it is a popular thing to do when people want to take a break from eve. People should have the option. It is what CCP promoted and it is what has attracted many people to the game.



The converse is Why should you get Carrier V without paying for it?


$30 for Carrier V, don't think many people would train it if they had to pay for it. Those cap skills are quite lengthy at level 5.


I still just don't get it...you are paying to PLAY, not to learn a skill. CCP screwed up when they did this, only because of HOW they did it.


I don't know about you, but if I were to train carrier to 5, the length of the skill would be nagging at the back of my head a lot. Everytime I log in "Dammit! 64 days, grrr!"

Karina Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:54:00 - [1832]
 

Originally by: Adam Reed

If your point is that allowing it will help them somewhere down the line, you've lost me, I don't see how it would. The board of CCP will have considered that when they made the decision and wouldn't have done it if it's likely to impact future profits.


And everything they've done in the past has been so well thought out and implemented Shocked

Adam Reed
Seniors Clan
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:55:00 - [1833]
 

Originally by: Karina Mei
Originally by: Adam Reed

If your point is that allowing it will help them somewhere down the line, you've lost me, I don't see how it would. The board of CCP will have considered that when they made the decision and wouldn't have done it if it's likely to impact future profits.


And everything they've done in the past has been so well thought out and implemented Shocked


Fair point.

ISIAM
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:56:00 - [1834]
 

I'm Sorry for all the devs, artist, programmers, management, and all other staff that may lose their jobs when C.C.P has to cut back on employees, because of this choice to change their own rules to stay afloat. I do realize That for C.C.P. to have come to this conclusion, It's very infrastructure must be under great stain. I will not speculate as to weather or not this may be the beginning of the end for C.C.P. , But I will say It's so for EVE. I hope That those at C.C.P. responsible for this decision realize Their mistake and move swiftly to right it. I for one would settle for Higher rates or some "else", but to change the very bones that call many to EVE is simply stupid. So in conclusion, I would like all that Find this decision a bad one, spread the word to your friends and corp mates to write, E-mail, and call C.C.P. and let them know, don't just do what we always do and just let it go by the way side. we as consumers do have voice and if they laugh at you then speak with your money. sadly yours, Joel "ISIAM" Carter

Netuti
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:57:00 - [1835]
 

just nerf, nerf and nerf.
And nothing new... What are you doing?

Karina Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:57:00 - [1836]
 

It's not even really what they've done, it's the way it's been done that seems to have got a lot of people annoyed. Blaming it on "database issues" etc was a bit lame IMHO.

Venus Einstein
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:57:00 - [1837]
 

Originally by: Wet Ferret
I'm silently laughing at all the morons in this thread that are applauding CCP for becoming more and more like all of the other big names that everybody absolutely despises.

Yes, good job CCP, good job.


double signed,verified,copyied......Exclamation

THIS IS THE MESSAGE FOLKS; WHATS COMMING UP NEXTQuestion YARRRR!!

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:58:00 - [1838]
 

Originally by: Yakumo Smith
Edited by: Yakumo Smith on 13/10/2008 23:30:01
Edited by: Yakumo Smith on 13/10/2008 23:25:50
There was a way to progress a character in EVE without an active subscription
CCP noticed a surge in the trend and decided to fix the leak
Players now have to pay a subscription for characters to have them progress


Yeah funny thing about the credit crunch and all that, people sometimes lapse subscriptions....spiked recently you say....must be pure coincidence.

I also think you should allow current ghosts to run their course. (I don't ghost train)

Failing that, you should consider emailing all subscribers alerting them to this "bug" fix.

But given it's been running for 5 years, this seems about the right length of time for a "bug" fix for you guys :p

edited to add link to original locked thread to show true vocal effect original outrage thread



I would say between that and the new 60d gtc yep

Arthmandar Valikari
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:58:00 - [1839]
 

Edited by: Arthmandar Valikari on 14/10/2008 15:00:03
Edited by: Arthmandar Valikari on 14/10/2008 14:58:43
I realize I'm hopping on to the 61st page of a thread that nobody who wishes to preserve sanity will actually read, but hey, I pay my dime, I can unoffensively blather on these forums as much as I like.

I am something of a programming nerd. I'm not a betting man, but if I was I would be willing to bet that this is exactly the implementation of the skill system now, and the proposed change. I'm about 99% certain that this is how it is implemented in the first place.

1) When you change a skill, the date of completion is calculated and written in the database. Done. There's no active maintenance of this field. It just sits there. Your client is responsible for checking that value, and for providing you pretty counters and skill completion messages, but really, it's just a single, written once, read a few times, value in the database. It is independent of whether or not your account is active. Every time you log in, the client checks this value to determine if your skill is done; if not, it checks to see when it will be. Hence, if you set a skill and go inactive, there is no database load at all. When you come back, the date is checked, and marked as completed. You now have a new skill. It is extremely low-load on the system. I can't imagine it is any other way.

2) After this change, when you cancel or your subscription runs out, the code to pause active account training will be executed. (A simple calculation based on when you set the skill, now, and when it would complete is done to figure out how many skill points you 'earned', and these are applied). That field in the database is cleared. Again, I can't imagine it is any other way.

So there you have it. If the system has a design as good as this one, there is *no load* on the database for these characters with ghost training. After the change, there will be *light load* on the database to do the skill training pause as subscriptions expire.

I know, this is news to nobody in the thread. I just wanted to point out how completely silly the argument is that this is adding to lag or whatnot.

Edit: you can see that if the system is as simple as I've described it, that a skill queue would be a significant departure from the current system. That's probably why we don't have one. Also, you can see how the original design of the skill system didn't take into account active or inactive accounts; ghost training was simply a consequence of an actual bug that people liked and it was declared a feature.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:58:00 - [1840]
 

Edited by: Razin on 14/10/2008 14:59:41
In on page 61 62 of an epic thread!!1111

P.S. Just goes to show, give the unwashed masses some cheap and simple reason for righteous indignation and they'll go ape **** over it.

Vengal Seyhan
Minmatar
Sudden Buggery
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:59:00 - [1841]
 

Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Edited by: Ivor Gunn on 14/10/2008 00:04:27
Edited by: Ivor Gunn on 14/10/2008 00:01:11

Quote:
Ghost Training was an unintended feature


No it wasn't.

Quote:
Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive


You contradict your own knowledge base.
Pure hypocrisy.


Oh, that's pretty priceless :D
Soon to be ret-conned, I predict.

FYI, CCP on the subject of subscriptions:
I recently signed up a second account on the Power of 2 program, planning to stick to a tightly focussed six month trainging program, for Interceptors and Amarr ships that my main doesn't fly. I was always then going to be folding this second character back into my main account thereafter.

Your game is good, but not that good.

Considering that I have a set expiry time on my subscription, and no desire to run two acounts in the long run - an in game and out of game (email) subscription expiry reminder would be highly handy, so that I don't get stung with a suddenly inactive account.

PS - Is it coincidence that the Power Of 2 offer just finished? I take it your marketting people were expecting a flurry of sign-ups arising out of this, and didn't want to offer these people the discount package. Wink

Arestan
Rising Sun Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:59:00 - [1842]
 

-2 accounts.

Take care, CCP.

Shaitis
Caldari
Fallen Angel's
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:59:00 - [1843]
 

Bye CCP

Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.10.14 14:59:00 - [1844]
 

Originally by: Karina Mei
It's not even really what they've done, it's the way it's been done that seems to have got a lot of people annoyed. Blaming it on "database issues" etc was a bit lame IMHO.



Solar flares
Aliens
Salamander Invasion Force
Fish Tank
***Database Issues***

Ratio Legis
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:00:00 - [1845]
 

Originally by: Aenemah
Originally by: Triksterism

Not everyone ghost trains their level 5's. However, it is a popular thing to do when people want to take a break from eve. People should have the option. It is what CCP promoted and it is what has attracted many people to the game.



This.

In fact I know a lot of long time players who ghost-train much and only return from time to time to check on the new toys they trained while they were away. For most of them returning to Eve is motivated almost solely by the ability to play around with new things until they get bored again and take another break. For such people having to pay full time for an account they only sporadically use would not be a viable option. I will not go as far to suggest that forcing them out of the game will amount to a huge financial loss to CCP since I have no idea how many such players there are out there, though if I had to hazard a guess I'd put most people who have stuck around since game launch in this category. However it is a factor to be considered. Personally I know I'd hate to see them gone from the game, at least not as a result of an unambiguous profiteering act by CCP.

Signaldog
Gallente
Cloak and Daggers
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:00:00 - [1846]
 

Originally by: Triksterism
Originally by: Signaldog
Originally by: Triksterism
Edited by: Triksterism on 14/10/2008 14:50:16
Originally by: Wygg
Originally by: Triksterism
You're missing the point. Not everyone ghost trains their level 5's. However, it is a popular thing to do when people want to take a break from eve. People should have the option. It is what CCP promoted and it is what has attracted many people to the game.



The converse is Why should you get Carrier V without paying for it?


$30 for Carrier V, don't think many people would train it if they had to pay for it. Those cap skills are quite lengthy at level 5.


I still just don't get it...you are paying to PLAY, not to learn a skill. CCP screwed up when they did this, only because of HOW they did it.


I don't know about you, but if I were to train carrier to 5, the length of the skill would be nagging at the back of my head a lot. Everytime I log in "Dammit! 64 days, grrr!"


I have done and I ya, i get that "Damnit" quite often, but that doesn't stop me from playing the game. I've got skills planned out for the next 283 days (evemon says so), but that doesn't mean I won't be PLAYING for those 283 days...each skill completed allows me to integrate a new piece of hardware into my specific style of gameplay, whether it's PvP or PvE or market or industry or what have you. Point is, I pay for 2 accounts every month so I can play 2 characters day in and day out (or not for weeks if I choose). CCP screwed up on the manner in which they did this, but I'm still trying to figure out what the BIGGEST issue is:

1) Loss of Ghosting?
2) CCP Actions?
3) SOME players ****ed cause they lost their free ride?

I don't know...someone tell me.

thelung187
Guiding Hand Social Club
Dystopia Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:00:00 - [1847]
 

Edited by: thelung187 on 14/10/2008 15:02:15
Originally by: Avon
Hey, your bug...

Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive

I found it in the player guide.

You guys better get in there and ninja-edit it.


Quoting this due to the lol/"working-as-intended-wait-we-get-more-money-maybe-the-other-way" factor.

edit: glad to see you were able to edit that so quickly, way to be on top of it CCP!

Karina Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:00:00 - [1848]
 

Originally by: Venus Einstein
Originally by: Wet Ferret
I'm silently laughing at all the morons in this thread that are applauding CCP for becoming more and more like all of the other big names that everybody absolutely despises.

Yes, good job CCP, good job.


double signed,verified,copyied......Exclamation

THIS IS THE MESSAGE FOLKS; WHATS COMMING UP NEXTQuestion YARRRR!!


QFT

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:01:00 - [1849]
 

Originally by: Virgo I'Platonicus

Why? What's the point in playing a char that can't do **** ( and the first 45 days in skill training are a complete waste of time in EVE-sense of gameplay). You don't get more skill points by playing like u used to back in 2003. So why play? It'd be ok if you could get faster SP by activelly doing the thing you're skilling (like gettin sp for firing specific gun and so on) - you don't.

This gimps new players and old players who will more or less stop looking forward to finding something new in eve.

You never saw it in an add? Let me help u there: link - 4th paragraph.

ah well.

V.

In no particular order:

1) I have played my character from day one, and received benefit in-game for it. If you honestly couldn't manage level one missions without 45 days of training, you've got a serious problem! I managed them my first day; by the end of the trial period, I was in a cruiser edging in to level 2's.

2)As to WHY play while a long skill is training, I can think of many reasons: get rep; get LP; get isk; run up your killboard; support your corp; null-sec politics; just for the h*** of it! In fact, if you are not doing those things, how are you going to be able (without resorting to a EULA violation) to use that shiny new toy your long skill enables?

3) Good grief - now the player's guide itself is an ad?? The blue screen of death is mentioned in the Windows manual, does that mean it was used as a selling point in an ad?

4) What new thing does this remove from Eve that new players won't get to experience now? It'll take the exact same amount of time to get to high SP...all CCP is asking is that you actually pay for an account as you get there! Nothing really removed.

Jorel
Junkyard Gunners
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:02:00 - [1850]
 

Originally by: Adam Reed
Originally by: Moon Kitten
Originally by: Adam Reed
What utter nonsense, how can people be so blinkered as to think that there's any commercial benefit in CCP allowing people to train skills like this? They are a company trying to make a profit, and as much as I'm in favour of smashing capitalism if you're going to have it you have to accept that companies will do what they can to maximse profits.

Frankly I didn't know that this 'ghost training' existed and was surprised to hear that it did, and has lasted so long. To the people moaning about this change, shut up and pay like the rest of us, or sod off and play Guild Wars. Fair play to CCP I say.

Stop thinking about the quarterly financial report and start thinking more long term. Perhaps in terms of years.


What? They are a company, a profit-making company. Why should they provide a service to people who aren't paying them? Justify that in any other industry and I'll pay attention.

If your point is that allowing it will help them somewhere down the line, you've lost me, I don't see how it would. The board of CCP will have considered that when they made the decision and wouldn't have done it if it's likely to impact future profits.


Very easy, automotive industry. I paid $25,000 for my car, in cash. My car is insured etc. If I decide I'm going out of country for a couple of months I don't want to pay full insurance cost while my car is sitting in the garage and waiting for me, so I call the insurance company and only put fire and theft coverage, at the same time I take my car into the shop and get my mechanic to do some upgrades (I needed a bigger turbo, injectors, fuel rail etc) [this would be like buying skill books and training them]. So when I come back from vacation in 2 months, I've just saved some money by not paying full insurance and have invested that money into upgrades for my car.

Both the insurance company and my shop have still gotten my money (in this case CCP is both, as the isk spent on skills may have been acquired through GTC sales etc. and if they charged some minimum fee of no more than $5/month for skill training). This way everyone walks away a winner, but alas, they decided to stick it in our poopers for using a feature that has been in the game for over 5 years.

It will most certainly impact active players in the future, I for one was training a character for my friend to use when he quits WoW. New players will be less likely to acquire a character with ISK (via GTC sales) since there won't be as many characters for sale etc.

I guess I'm not a happy camper, because CCP has just made a liar out of me to all those people whom I recommended the game to, based on this feature (sorry CCP, its hax/bug/error/omission etc.)

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:02:00 - [1851]
 

Originally by: Triksterism
Originally by: Adam Slysphere
Originally by: Lag
This change is complete crap.

Why should I pay for a months time that my character will not be able to do anything?


it is doing something. It's learning a new skill ...


Which is basically just a clock ticking while you take a break from the game. No bandwidth use and anyone is free to do it.


Actually it isn't even a clock ticking. It's a picture of the clock at the time you put that skill on. When you actually pay and login again, they take another picture, compare the two, and THEN work out if your skill is finished or not. The load of a training char is actually the same as one that isn't training, when inactive.

Of course if they make this change, then they need to keep looking at the clock all the time, and comparing it to your training clock and payment clock. Where as if they don't they don't need to look at either of these unless you login. There are some tricky ways around that sure to lead to some bugs, but basically they're not reducing the effort or load any, not unless they start completely erasing inactive chars and everything they own. Even then the difference would be immeasurable.

Quote:
although it probably won't effect ccp to much, lets face it there will still be 30k+ players logged in tonight and tommorow and the day after that


22k now :o I remember when we were thinking it would break PCU 50k soon...

Jumped the shark..

Gonethes
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:02:00 - [1852]
 

This must surely also mean that research with research agents must be halted while inactive!

I play on multiple accounts and with a limitied budget, I cant' afford to run them all at the same time.
I suggest that you introduce a discount for multiple accounts to show the players that you are not, as you try to tell players, 'greedy money chewing monster'.

This feature has been used, but I can't say it can be abused, since you really can't play on an account that is inactive.
The 'away-training' is a carrot for players to return to Eve, not an exploit og bugs so that players can train for free!

CDLoon
Minmatar
Red Sky Morning
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:02:00 - [1853]
 

All these salty tears!

I have never, nor will ever ghost train. Im paying for it - im gonna play it. After 2 years playing an MMO where you had to login and play to level, just having the offline (subscribed) skill change is great.


Why should I get to train chars for free ?

And note : likely a lot of isk gets farmed by skilling up ghost chars and selling them.

Sonao
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:03:00 - [1854]
 

Originally by: Avon
Hey, your bug...

Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive

I found it in the player guide.

You guys better get in there and ninja-edit it.
It has been ninja-ed now!

Skills continue training even if you are logged off, but the skill will no longer continue to train on inactive accounts (an inactive account is when you’re no longer paying the subscription, training will still continue when you’ve logged off on an subscribed account).


Thanks guys!

Seth Ruin
Minmatar
Ominous Corp
Circle-Of-Two
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:03:00 - [1855]
 

Originally by: Annaphera
1) I have played my character from day one, and received benefit in-game for it. If you honestly couldn't manage level one missions without 45 days of training, you've got a serious problem! I managed them my first day; by the end of the trial period, I was in a cruiser edging in to level 2's.


Irrelevant when you're talking to a 2003 or 2004 player... You folk start with far more skill points than we did back in the day.


Not complaining; I think that's a good thing that they periodically boost the amount of SP new players get. But just because you can do level 1s no problem now doesn't mean we didn't have to skill up (a lot) to be competent enough to complete a level 1 back in the day.

Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:04:00 - [1856]
 

Originally by: Ratio Legis
Originally by: Aenemah
Originally by: Triksterism

Not everyone ghost trains their level 5's. However, it is a popular thing to do when people want to take a break from eve. People should have the option. It is what CCP promoted and it is what has attracted many people to the game.



This.

In fact I know a lot of long time players who ghost-train much and only return from time to time to check on the new toys they trained while they were away. For most of them returning to Eve is motivated almost solely by the ability to play around with new things until they get bored again and take another break. For such people having to pay full time for an account they only sporadically use would not be a viable option. I will not go as far to suggest that forcing them out of the game will amount to a huge financial loss to CCP since I have no idea how many such players there are out there, though if I had to hazard a guess I'd put most people who have stuck around since game launch in this category. However it is a factor to be considered. Personally I know I'd hate to see them gone from the game, at least not as a result of an unambiguous profiteering act by CCP.


Very true. Got me thinking that ghost training for the kind of people who are just on-off-on-off seems rather fair. I mean, they barely play in the first place, so they train a skill, reactivate, play around for a few days, break again. $15 for a few days and a countdown clock for another month or so seems fair to me considering no bandwidth is wasted.

Again, I was refering to the niche of people Ratio mentioned, not everyone who ghost trains.

TimGascoigne
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:04:00 - [1857]
 

This is a perfectly reasonable change with a fatal floor.

The Dev blog came out Monday and the Change will occur on Wednesday. Unfortunately this change will affect inactive accounts often owned by people who are simply taking a break from the game and will lose a lot of skill training without realizing it.

Most people who are ghost training are not creating second characters on the cheap. They are ordinary players who have no idea what's about to happen.

CCP considering the nature of the topic, you desperately need to give more than 2 days warning.

Adam Slysphere
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:05:00 - [1858]
 

Originally by: Jorel
Originally by: Adam Reed
Originally by: Moon Kitten
Originally by: Adam Reed
What utter nonsense, how can people be so blinkered as to think that there's any commercial benefit in CCP allowing people to train skills like this? They are a company trying to make a profit, and as much as I'm in favour of smashing capitalism if you're going to have it you have to accept that companies will do what they can to maximse profits.

Frankly I didn't know that this 'ghost training' existed and was surprised to hear that it did, and has lasted so long. To the people moaning about this change, shut up and pay like the rest of us, or sod off and play Guild Wars. Fair play to CCP I say.

Stop thinking about the quarterly financial report and start thinking more long term. Perhaps in terms of years.


What? They are a company, a profit-making company. Why should they provide a service to people who aren't paying them? Justify that in any other industry and I'll pay attention.

If your point is that allowing it will help them somewhere down the line, you've lost me, I don't see how it would. The board of CCP will have considered that when they made the decision and wouldn't have done it if it's likely to impact future profits.


Very easy, automotive industry. I paid $25,000 for my car, in cash. My car is insured etc. If I decide I'm going out of country for a couple of months I don't want to pay full insurance cost while my car is sitting in the garage and waiting for me, so I call the insurance company and only put fire and theft coverage, at the same time I take my car into the shop and get my mechanic to do some upgrades (I needed a bigger turbo, injectors, fuel rail etc) [this would be like buying skill books and training them]. So when I come back from vacation in 2 months, I've just saved some money by not paying full insurance and have invested that money into upgrades for my car.

Both the insurance company and my shop have still gotten my money (in this case CCP is both, as the isk spent on skills may have been acquired through GTC sales etc. and if they charged some minimum fee of no more than $5/month for skill training). This way everyone walks away a winner, but alas, they decided to stick it in our poopers for using a feature that has been in the game for over 5 years.

It will most certainly impact active players in the future, I for one was training a character for my friend to use when he quits WoW. New players will be less likely to acquire a character with ISK (via GTC sales) since there won't be as many characters for sale etc.

I guess I'm not a happy camper, because CCP has just made a liar out of me to all those people whom I recommended the game to, based on this feature (sorry CCP, its hax/bug/error/omission etc.)

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


Difference being that your car is your property ... Let's say you're renting that car or still making payments on it like you're doing with your EVE character. If you went out of town and stopped making payments, do you think they're going to let you hang onto that car or repo it?

Everybody wants something for nothing, and that's what Ghost Trainers were doing.

Siona Windweaver
Placeholder Holdings
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:06:00 - [1859]
 

They need to give us a skill queue system asap in my opinion.

I understand why they may do such a thing, but its absolutely cheap to hide behind reasons such as "Balance" or "It was a Bug".

Anyways, skill queue. Now. Seriously.

Jel Ting
Posted - 2008.10.14 15:07:00 - [1860]
 

Originally by: Mriss
Originally by: Jel Ting


So once again play the game, dont power level without paying. If you want to train and do whatever fine, just now you have to pay like the rest of us.




Never ever heard of anybody who could "train and do whatever" without actually paying.

Are you actually missing the whole point here.


I don't think so... Train and play, train and don't play that is the whatever, go jack-off to Marcia Brady whatever floats your canoe. I don't think getting something that other people pay for at a discount is fair. Hell I'll go on the record again and say I think this whole alt thing is out of hand, some day it will be 2 guys playing Eve and 30K toons logged in. I say they should get rid of alts and have 3 pricing packages, One for one trainable character per account, another price with 2 trainable characters per account and a 3rd option with all 3 characters able to train concurrently. However you can only have one logged in at a time. And skill queueing of course. I'm sick of guys with 10 alts frankly, I want to play with other people and depend on them for scouting etc. Not some guy with lots of cash and and 10 alts mining in 0.0 with scouts in adjacent systems. At this rate Eve will be 1 guy with 30k alts in 5 years :p


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