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Commander Spectre
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:41:00 - [1561]
 

Originally by: Simmith
Originally by: Proud American
Because you are a producer I can see why you care more about money than your companies image or your customers.


Customer:

1. a person who purchases goods or services from another; buyer; patron.

Leech:

2. a person who clings to another for personal gain, esp. without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.

The proposed change gets rid of leeches, not customers. Which are you?


Acually customers don't exsist anymore. They have been replaced by consumers.

Customer - A person who purchases goods and gets service from the seller. Someone that the seller wishes to return. A person with input that is treated with respect.

Consumer - A person that companies deal with just to get thier money then blows them off. Somoeone that is only as important as the amount of money that can be drained from them.

Zinnn
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:41:00 - [1562]
 

Originally by: Janine Ramsey
Originally by: Dmian
I only want to remember you all this:
Originally by: EULA, 10.E "New Releases of the Software"
CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you.


Originally by: TOS
CCP MAY FIND IT NECESSARY ON OCCASION TO MAKE CHANGES TO OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS OF THE PERSISTENT GAME WORLD MECHANICS, INTERFACE OR FEATURES OF EVE ONLINE IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN GAME BALANCE AND ENHANCE PLAYABILITY OR PERFORMANCE FOR ITS SUBSCRIBERS. THESE CHANGES MAY AFFECT OR CAUSE SETBACKS FOR THE CHARACTERS YOU’VE CREATED.

You've agreed to this terms. You should respect what you've agreed to.


they say its a bug - nope they advertised it and could simply say we change it , instead they lie



yet most of the people in this quote conveniently forget the one line in there right before the bold text, where it says TO ENHANCE PLAYABILITY. ... This does not enhance, this is worse than a nerf, this is an out and out feature elimination for a LOT of people I know. If everyone can do it, it doesn't unbalance the game. New people can do this too. I know a few new people that are really disappointed with this "featured packed patch"... We don't need no water let the M*******r burn, burn M**********r, burn - to quote bloodhound gang.

Karina Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:41:00 - [1563]
 

I hardly ever post on the forums (or have that much time to read them to be honest) but after reading a fair number of the pages on this thread (eye strain anyone :( ) I felt I had to post something...

I've used ghost training in the past, when I had burn out from playing eye (12 hours of moving POS stuff round and other similar mind numbing tasks) and it just lacked the fun element for me, but mostly when RL has dictated that I don't have time to play. I've got a full time job and two young children, so time is a premium and so if RL doesn't allow me enough free time, I can't play end of story. At the moment I've got three accounts, two currently active and one ghost training (until the patch) BS 5. I only reactivated the first two accounts recently as their ghost training skills finished and I wanted to set new skills training, but I don't have the time to really play with these accounts. The whole reason for still carrying on playing was hopefully in the near future RL might give me the opportunity to actually use what I pay for, at which point I would have all accounts active (which has been the case in the past). Training in this way has at least given me a reason to keep coming back, until now... If this does go ahead why should I want to resubscribe in the short term when I can't play, the only reason was to set my next set of skills up ready for when the account went inactive again.

The best course of action for me at the moment is to either just quit entirely (and no you can't have my stuff, I'd rather split every stack up and see how many stations I could leave them in) or to move my two alts onto the account of my main and just keep that one active.

Net result:

3 accounts active for 2 months out of three (I tend to ghost train a 30 day ish skill) gives a total of 24 months of paid for subscription over the year (so 12 x 60 day time cards). Now if I move the other two alts (not including the transfer fee) to my main account and keep that subscribed it's 12 months paid subscription in a year.

12 x 60 day time cards
or
6 x 60 day time cards

I know which one I'd rather have as a company on the receiving end of the cash.

If I could play all the time I wouldn't mind as the accounts would be making ISK as well as training but as RL stands at the moment...

fecked
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:42:00 - [1564]
 

Originally by: Simmith
Originally by: Proud American
Because you are a producer I can see why you care more about money than your companies image or your customers.


Customer:

1. a person who purchases goods or services from another; buyer; patron.

Leech:

2. a person who clings to another for personal gain, esp. without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.

The proposed change gets rid of leeches, not customers. Which are you?


A ghost trained account is only relevant when the player reactivates to then use those skills. Therefore only paying customers can benefit from ghost training not leeches.

This change really hits players with multiple accounts already paying multiple fee's. They are CCP's bread and butter. Annoying your core source of revenue in this manner when many are already looking for an excuse to mothball accounts through the credit crunch is mind blowingly stupid.

Question:- What is the Capital of Iceland?

- $4.76


Total Disaster
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:44:00 - [1565]
 

gosh I need more popcorn Laughing

chotaire
Caldari
The Rising Stars
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:44:00 - [1566]
 

Originally by: Simmith
Originally by: Proud American
Because you are a producer I can see why you care more about money than your companies image or your customers.


Customer:

1. a person who purchases goods or services from another; buyer; patron.

Leech:

2. a person who clings to another for personal gain, esp. without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.

The proposed change gets rid of leeches, not customers. Which are you?


Customer = a person who pays for two subscriptions because some skill takes 100 days to complete and there is no way to make it go quicker unlike in other MMOs.

Leech = a person with a real life who doesn't want to sit infront of the monitor waiting 100 days for a skill to complete and who thinks that paying to wait is a bit ******ed. Instead, he comes back after 100 days and pays for another subscription again in order to use the skill and/or set the next skill.

History = an alt that often generates money to CCP for being subscribed to skill up until it is ready for permanent use. These alts will probably be abandonned or moved to their mains, thus extra money generation from hardcore players comes to an end.

Wise choice, CCP! Not. And to all those CCP-compliant posters who think this is all good change: Who the hell are you? I pay for a minimum of 3 accounts and this change is a kick in the faces of everyone who generated extra income for CCP. And it is a kick in the face of everyone who recently joined the Power of 2. If you feel this is balancing, then maybe you are right... it will balance the amount of accounts paid for by a single customer, most probably 1 ;)

Jonathan Wild
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:46:00 - [1567]
 

I know this is a game.
I know that Real Life(RL) is separate/different.

But, here is a real life comparison.

A friend and I were in the military service together. He and I had the same training. One day we were given an opportunity to go to an additional bit of training. I opted for the free training he didn't. I was sent to a week long training that took me out of the shop. He had to stay and work. I didn't have to work, but got the opportunity to train. The training gave me opportunities to do things he couldn't without the training.

Using this RL example CCP is basically removing the optional training opportunities from its player base. The claim that it "is too much for the DB" is a pile (a big steaming pile left by an Elephant in the room).

All I can say is thank goodness I trained Cap Ship 5 prior to the removal of my extra training options. I reactivated using a 60D GTC and will get JDC 5 during this period. That choice was made prior to this announcement (I'm 22% done already). So, not all of us "abuse" ghost training. I still use regular training for long skills. Removing ghost training will change what I'm going to focus on for this account.

It will also probably mean that I consolidate this character onto one of my other accounts... which sucks, since the purpose of this account is to fly a Rorqual in a gang of my accounts. I will see a reduction of income due to not being able to run as many accounts during a low sec mining operations.

Will I emo-rage quit? No. But I will consolidate my accounts as I will be satisfied with less skilled characters and fewer gang members when I run a solo-op.

Cheers!

-JW

Uoogla
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:47:00 - [1568]
 

Originally by: cuculet
The EVE-online website is undergoing maintenance.
We are sorry for any inconvenience caused.
ShockedShockedShocked
i was thinking the patch is suposed to be tomorow...dmg ctrl? Rolling Eyes


How do you stop people from unsubscribing? Do maintenance on the account management webpage! Twisted Evil

But seriously, I like this move. You have to pay for your skills to increase. I think it is also another hit to the shadow industry of isk and account sellers...and it could be a prerequisite to allow web-based or mobile skill changes...

I doubt that CCP did not weigh the up- and downsides of this decision carefully (although I have to admit I first thought it was an april's fool).

We'll see...

Amaron Ghant
Caldari
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:48:00 - [1569]
 

It's actually a move to reduce lag in Jita (If all the complainers threatening to quit actually quit)

Shuckstar
Gallente
Hauling hogs
Swine Aviation Labs
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:49:00 - [1570]
 

Originally by: Dmian
Originally by: Janine Ramsey
they say its a bug - nope they advertised it and could simply say we change it , instead they lie

What they say is irrelevant. They can change the game as they see fit, without giving explanations.


Still makes them liers and greedy money grabbing bastards imo Evil or Very Mad




MR Oiso
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:49:00 - [1571]
 

I forgot something in my first post.
some people are saying things like.

"OOhhh why are you getting exitetd because of this - cant understand why are you thinking you can get something 4 free ...."

like this:
bla bla....sounds like the kids from runescape or whatever that game is called who want it free because they're moms wont pay the second or third account, as to us working folks seem to be ok as we already pay the extra alts..... bla bla

It doesn't make any difference how is posting or what his purpose is. The Thing is that Players are customers who are paying money and in the past they decidet to pay that money for a thing they will not have any longer.

CCP undertook a service to there customers and now they try to cancel that service but they whant to have the same money for this. - This will not be a good idea.

Janine Ramsey
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:49:00 - [1572]
 

wait, in 2 months we need to kill rats to get xp and then can choose where to use the xp Question

WaiKin Beldar
Tormentum Insomniae
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:51:00 - [1573]
 

Edited by: WaiKin Beldar on 14/10/2008 12:51:24
Originally by: Amaron Ghant
Originally by: WaiKin Beldar

Ghost training is a unique feature that gives me the option to gain SPs (=ability of doing new or better things in this game)if, for instance, I have to focus my time to other chars,stay away in RL from EVE for long periods, or just chilling out for really long skill times.

Very bad move. Worst strategy.Sad





translation. I like the fact that I can skill for free and spend that subscription money on something else


Right. In the same way I have 3 chars available per account right now. Probably I will be really playing seriously with only one, but I like that feature, that is the way I started to play and would be really ****ed off of having less and less features every time CCP is deciding about making me pay more for what I originally signed for in my contract.
They have the right to rise the prices and i have the right to complain about those rises without a sensible explanation, not the original one.

chotaire
Caldari
The Rising Stars
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:51:00 - [1574]
 

Originally by: Amaron Ghant
It's actually a move to reduce lag in Jita (If all the complainers threatening to quit actually quit)



Hey you troll, how do ghost trainers end up in Jita? You could just aswell delete your post.

Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:51:00 - [1575]
 

Originally by: fecked
Question:- What is the Capital of Iceland?
- $4.76

I LOL'd

Cheers,
Arrs

Stormaar
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:51:00 - [1576]
 

Originally by: Janine Ramsey
wait, in 2 months we need to kill rats to get xp and then can choose where to use the xp Question


no. u just kill ur time and wait.

Zinnn
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:51:00 - [1577]
 

oogla if you want to hit isk sellers, kill macro miners. Don't give BS reasons. Seriously I don't understand how shadow training has to do with isk sellers. Isk sellers need active accounts to make isk, not inactive accounts.

Viermut
Phoenix Industries
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:52:00 - [1578]
 

What I find really funny is that they see a spike after 5 years...but no one noticed the macro miner spikes>? the lag spikes? the ghost trainer macro's running?

Come on guys, its a money grab and you know it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
It's propably a duck.

Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:52:00 - [1579]
 

Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 14/10/2008 12:53:12
Give 'em a hand and they'll take an arm. You complied to the terms of service and the end user license agreement, get on with it or quit, I could use me some stuffs Twisted Evil

Dave LoveSlave
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:53:00 - [1580]
 

It amazes me how this can go from being offered up as a feature to being discredited as a bug. Make up your mind. You must really think we have no reading comprehension.

I have more accounts than a sane person should, but that's my choice, and an issue between myself and the people I buy GTCs from.

That said, CCP will go from getting money from me for all of my accounts two thirds of the time, to getting money from one third of my accounts all of the time. And, trust me, there's a massive difference involved.

I've been threatening (albeit to myself) to tone down my obsession with Eve altogether and do the other things I hafve wanted to for months, if not years.

This might just be the proverbial straw/camel's back situation.

gj.

Zomzom
Gallente
PWNED Factor
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:54:00 - [1581]
 

I remember when CCP China was set up and the dev blogs then concerning the players on the Chinese server being unable to "Ghost Train" and that this was never going to be brought into play on tranquility. Well here it is, it was always regarded as a feature unique to the game, promoted by CCP as such and an attraction to many people who had either tired of the game through burn out, or needed to attend to RL stuff or were just hard up temporarily. I believe it is totally disingenuous of CCP to now state that this is a bug. If they wish to remove a much vaunted and promoted feature then they should give at least 3 months notice and contact all existing accounts including those inactive of course.

Hades In'aMiniskirt
Order of CrimsonLobology
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:55:00 - [1582]
 

than at least give us SKILL QUEING, ffs we are paying for it anywayRolling Eyes

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:55:00 - [1583]
 

Edited by: Wet Ferret on 14/10/2008 12:55:55
250,000 active accounts? Or whatever the hell it is now...

Yet 30k players online at peak times, many of which are already alts / mostly-afk market characters.

You'd think CCP would be happy that they are getting six months worth of subscription payments out of a character that likely won't be played for more than a few minutes every couple of months during a year. Guess not Laughing

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:56:00 - [1584]
 

Next month they will introduce it so you only train when logged out. Laughing To reduce the load on the servers of course.

Konosbe
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:56:00 - [1585]
 

Well then!

Thats -2 Accounts for CCP from my side. I'll keep my third one for the happy mission grinding if iam bored by other games again.

Way to go, CCP! Now that's a kick in the nuts for the customers. And a very stupid excuse as well - sometimes it really takes CCP ages to fix a 'bug', but this has always been this way, and it's been a feature, not a bug.

No, no one can have my stuff. I'll send it all to my other account :P

- K

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:57:00 - [1586]
 

Doesn't this give more credence to the crowd that want to be reimbursed for lost training over extended downtimes, I mean, before we were supposedly paying for the right to maybe be allowed to login, now they're saying it's the right to be training something ?

Leilla Mac
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:58:00 - [1587]
 

What are the odds on this "bug fix" borking the skill training continuing during DT. How many fixes have worked as intended without being pushed onto a test server first.Rolling Eyes
I'd hope CCP have got this code worked out properly or the forums are likely to explode and a large maintenance bill will ensue.ugh
I sense a large LOL in the pipeline.Laughing

fcydo
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:58:00 - [1588]
 

If you, CCP, need money -- say so, make it clear and we will help.

There are more intelligent ways of making some buck on your playerbase, for intance, introduce some charity stations where you can donate money and get some unique stuff (snowball launchers, or something like that -- cool useless stuff that you cannot buy on market). Or paint shop where you can get something cool paints on your ships, like: "EVE thanks you", or etc. Or even some unique storyline missions.

I do thing ghost training is good feature. I never used it, but it is very economic for long skills. It do not generate payload on server, there is virtually no lag from ghosts.

And still, I vote for "one account per one gamer". Just do something about cyno.

It's too reckless to announce such big changes in 2 days. Being rude and silent -- won't give you any credit. I completly undestand your motivation, but your implementation is just dirty and awful.

Many people take SP very personally. Keep it in mind.

Zinnn
Posted - 2008.10.14 13:00:00 - [1589]
 

I hope CCP has the balls to go through with this and see in 6 months time how this has affected their bottom line. Why not just eliminate multi-accounts while you're at it too. Most games consider multi-accounts to be illegal.

CCP, make it fair to everyone by allowing only one person an account, these multiple accounts are killing us! IT'S ONLY FAIR FOR THE SAKE OF BALANCE!!! .. Seriously, do it, because that's just as absurd as what you're proposing.

Kyoudai Ichata
Posted - 2008.10.14 13:00:00 - [1590]
 

Originally by: Hades In'aMiniskirt
than at least give us SKILL QUEING, ffs we are paying for it anywayRolling Eyes

qft, I'm glad I cancelled both my accounts.


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