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Siona Windweaver
Placeholder Holdings
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:27:00 - [1531]
 

Originally by: Dmian
I only want to remember you all this:
Originally by: EULA, 10.E "New Releases of the Software"
CCP may update, upgrade or otherwise enhance the Software at any time, in its sole discretion, without obligation to you.


Originally by: TOS
CCP MAY FIND IT NECESSARY ON OCCASION TO MAKE CHANGES TO OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS OF THE PERSISTENT GAME WORLD MECHANICS, INTERFACE OR FEATURES OF EVE ONLINE IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN GAME BALANCE AND ENHANCE PLAYABILITY OR PERFORMANCE FOR ITS SUBSCRIBERS. THESE CHANGES MAY AFFECT OR CAUSE SETBACKS FOR THE CHARACTERS YOU’VE CREATED.

You've agreed to this terms. You should respect what you've agreed to.


Just because its in the TOS/EULA doesn't mean it is right. TOS/EULA is more like a failsafe system in case there are some legal issues.

Everyone knows MMO developers acts with the community in mind.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:27:00 - [1532]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 14/10/2008 12:29:32
Originally by: Jinx Barker
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
About time this happened.
ROFL at all you scrounging turds wanting **** for free!



Right, so all the guys who are going to Afghanistan and Iraq for deployments are scrounging turds?
Or the kids going to school away from home that actively blocks EVE and game content, scrounging turds, or people with RL obligations like extended travel, are scrounging turds?

Nice one...


I don't know. I don't have to do anything to keep my account subscribed (takes cash off credit card automatically) and it takes only half a minute to swap skills.

So you are just wanting skill training for free. It's definitely not a matter of "RL obligations". And for one account, paying 15$ or 15 euros a month IS peanuts, not "power payer" as someone said.

LOL a the people quitting EvE because he cannot train his alts for 1/2 (or less) the price. Can I have your stuff?


Getting skill training while you're not paying is basically getting free stuff. It worked for a long time, now it doesn't. Claiming you've got 'rights' as a non-paying customer is silly.

Edit: the stupid part is how the ghost training removal is handled PR wise.

Dmian
Gallente
Gallenterrorisme
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:28:00 - [1533]
 

Originally by: Janine Ramsey
they say its a bug - nope they advertised it and could simply say we change it , instead they lie

What they say is irrelevant. They can change the game as they see fit, without giving explanations.

Piter deVriend
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:28:00 - [1534]
 

Originally by: Victriferusianus
It's a good thing that ghost training will be disabled. Cycling through accounts to get more skills trained is broken and should be fixed. I don't really see why a character in an inactive account should advance in any way. Also, if the only thing that makes you come back to EVE is that you have some skill one level higher waiting for you, maybe you shouldn't come back to EVE. The announcement was worded badly, but that's about it.


In the normal world, when you work you achieve something. Eve's idiotic skill system prevents you from doing that. That's why this was a small compensation for this dreadfull skilling system.

Siona Windweaver
Placeholder Holdings
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:29:00 - [1535]
 

Originally by: Dmian
Originally by: Janine Ramsey
they say its a bug - nope they advertised it and could simply say we change it , instead they lie

What they say is irrelevant. They can change the game as they see fit, without giving explanations.


NGE?

yeah right...

Bytad
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:29:00 - [1536]
 

Ghost training was not a feature for me to play eve but because of this brilliant idea of canceling it there wont be anybody to play eve with

there goes your player run market

Janine Ramsey
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:29:00 - [1537]
 

Originally by: Dmian
Originally by: Janine Ramsey
they say its a bug - nope they advertised it and could simply say we change it , instead they lie

What they say is irrelevant. They can change the game as they see fit, without giving explanations.


a lie stays a lie

Dmian
Gallente
Gallenterrorisme
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:29:00 - [1538]
 

Originally by: Siona Windweaver
Just because its in the TOS/EULA doesn't mean it is right. TOS/EULA is more like a failsafe system in case there are some legal issues.

Everyone knows MMO developers acts with the community in mind.

Go to a lawyer, tell him/her exactly that. Watch his/her reaction.

Simmith
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:29:00 - [1539]
 

Originally by: Proud American
Because you are a producer I can see why you care more about money than your companies image or your customers.


Customer:

1. a person who purchases goods or services from another; buyer; patron.

Leech:

2. a person who clings to another for personal gain, esp. without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.

The proposed change gets rid of leeches, not customers. Which are you?

Janine Ramsey
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:31:00 - [1540]
 

Originally by: Simmith
Originally by: Proud American
Because you are a producer I can see why you care more about money than your companies image or your customers.


Customer:

1. a person who purchases goods or services from another; buyer; patron.

Leech:

2. a person who clings to another for personal gain, esp. without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.

The proposed change gets rid of leeches, not customers. Which are you?

so a payed feature of the game makes u a leecher now? wow

WaiKin Beldar
Tormentum Insomniae
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:32:00 - [1541]
 

It's hard to believe that the same company that included an Economist to supervise and assess on the game market in its staff (brilliant, imho)has taken this kind of decision.
You did not have anyone who told you, seriously, this is not going to do any good to CCP's economy (taking for granted that the customer's economy will be hit) before making an official announcement to the world?

Ghost training is a unique feature that gives me the option to gain SPs (=ability of doing new or better things in this game)if, for instance, I have to focus my time to other chars,stay away in RL from EVE for long periods, or just chilling out for really long skill times.

Skipping this feature is, in no way, making more attractive this game to the old players.

Exactly the same reason why a lot of new players are coming to play EVE looking for something different from the rest of MMORPGs.

Very bad move. Worst strategy.Sad


Amaron Ghant
Caldari
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:33:00 - [1542]
 

Try as I might, I can't blame CCP for this move.


Siona Windweaver
Placeholder Holdings
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:34:00 - [1543]
 

Originally by: Dmian
Originally by: Siona Windweaver
Just because its in the TOS/EULA doesn't mean it is right. TOS/EULA is more like a failsafe system in case there are some legal issues.

Everyone knows MMO developers acts with the community in mind.

Go to a lawyer, tell him/her exactly that. Watch his/her reaction.


Yes, just because EULA permits it, ****ing off your paying customers that can cancel their account without a warning, is right.

There are lots of examples of this in MMO history, best one is NGE with SWG. MMO's got one rule imo, don't **** off your customers.

Confuzer
Volition Cult
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:34:00 - [1544]
 

Ooh hell what replies.

Most of you people talk about things you know NOTHING about.
Greedy? Don't they have alot of costs too? Development is EXPENSIVE.

I pay 12 euro's a month, and it's NOTHING compared to what I get back.

I miss alot of respect here. Don't you think they haven't talked about this in the CCP office? Maybe they do need the money, but you know why? Not for expensive cars, but for costs, development and expansion.

They aren't WoW with milions of users.

cuculet
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:34:00 - [1545]
 

Originally by: Xen Gin
Edited by: Xen Gin on 14/10/2008 12:24:19
Man, all you people "quitting" EvE will allow me to fly around without having to listen to you smacktalk in local ever again!?

I'm so in favour of this change you cheapskates!

Also why are you still here? Quitting? Then actually do it, instead of smacktalking in the forums.


I smell the whines of noobs crying out because momma no likes to breast feed ya anymore!

i smell an idiot! Shocked

Kortalis Hellion
Gallente
Solarian Order
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:34:00 - [1546]
 

Seriously guys? After all these &^%$ing disappointing patches I am starting to wonder why I stay on this game.

-45$ a month if this sticks

DealsOnWheels
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:35:00 - [1547]
 

This is just stupid from ccp. All it is doing is putting more money into there wallet at the expensive of people playing the game.

Amaron Ghant
Caldari
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:35:00 - [1548]
 

Originally by: WaiKin Beldar

Ghost training is a unique feature that gives me the option to gain SPs (=ability of doing new or better things in this game)if, for instance, I have to focus my time to other chars,stay away in RL from EVE for long periods, or just chilling out for really long skill times.

Very bad move. Worst strategy.Sad




translation. I like the fact that I can skill for free and spend that subscription money on something else

Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:35:00 - [1549]
 

Originally by: Simmith
Customer:

1. a person who purchases goods or services from another; buyer; patron.

Leech:

2. a person who clings to another for personal gain, esp. without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.

The proposed change gets rid of leeches, not customers. Which are you?

You still need to pay to make use of the trained skill...

Cheers,
Arrs

Kortalis Hellion
Gallente
Solarian Order
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:36:00 - [1550]
 

Also on a side note, if they pull the idea and be like "O nevermind guys, we apologise that was uncalled for we take it back"

and seriously did use that as a deterent of the speed nerf coming, tbh hats off and well played lol

Little help
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:36:00 - [1551]
 

Originally by: Simmith
Originally by: Proud American
Because you are a producer I can see why you care more about money than your companies image or your customers.


Customer:

1. a person who purchases goods or services from another; buyer; patron.

Leech:

2. a person who clings to another for personal gain, esp. without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.

The proposed change gets rid of leeches, not customers. Which are you?


I acknowledge that CCP has the complete freedom to do as they see fit. I am a customer using my right to demand the terms I prefer.

If we can not agree, I won't choose the service.
Out of respect as a long term customer I point out the things that I don't like.

But you, you FAIL.

Victriferusianus
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:36:00 - [1552]
 

Originally by: Piter deVriend

In the normal world, when you work you achieve something. Eve's idiotic skill system prevents you from doing that. That's why this was a small compensation for this dreadfull skilling system.


I think EVEs skill system is very good. You don't need boring grinding to advance skills. I think there is no need for any compensation and definetly no need for a loophole to gain skill advantage over players that don't want to exploit the loophole.

Last Flower
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:37:00 - [1553]
 

Edited by: Last Flower on 14/10/2008 12:41:31
Originally by: Seth Ruin
Originally by: Last Flower
Edited by: Last Flower on 14/10/2008 12:14:45
.

Of course it would be more fair and appreciated by CCP's customers if CCP would just say "cause we need money". That will never happen, however, and let me explain you why are we being fed lies, it's for a reason.

Due to "credit crush" and actual economical hole all countries of the world feel to one extent or another, any "virtual" money (credit, loans etc.) or would-be-money deteriorate in value, cause it(money) exist not NOW, that is, in the present. Every company that is at stake now tries to accumulate as much REAL money at this given moment as possible. Yes, this "ghost training" nerf will cause CCP to loose players in long run, loose revenue in long run, but hey, they can deal with that later, by firing-off a new marketing campaign to bring folks back. Thus they employ "oh snap, we'll figure out something!(later)" tactics at the moment, and do this premeditated and smart move to get as much REAL money as they can as fast as possible. How this is achieved? First of, you analyze the situation, the data you have, and you see that there is a large number of "would-be-money-in-a-near-future" but it ain't "real money now", so how do you make the aforementioned into the other and fast? You cut-off "ghost training" and what you get is a vast number of people resubscribing into their accounts for whatever reasons they got (prolly main accounts on "vacation") in 2 days time! <-- HENCE THE SHORT TIME NOTICE. So, the immediate effect is the immediate real money flow and hey, the right immediate upt to date and fresh numbers to show to your business partners ("hey, it's all ok on our end! it's safe to invest").

Now why the "bug" scam? What a self respecting company with common business sense would admit to it's customers that it's finances are bit on the edge? Admitting to your customers, you would also admit to your investors, to your business partners and anyone related to your business. Now we wouldn't want to let that happen, do we?
It's way more easier to lie to your customers by saying it's a bug,
than to try to negotiate a future business deal with your investor by saying "you know, we're a bit low..."

It's simple as that logic not everyone manages to perceive.
SO here are your reasons for "why do they tell lies" drama.


So they'd rather tell investors they've ****ed off their player base (y'know, loyal customers) with a blatant lie than tell them they're hard up on cash?


That derives from a fact that players are expendable, at the given need and time, it's the numbers of real money that matter for the company to be able to not to go bankrupt/loan (in the worst case scenario) now. Some leave , some cancel alts, but still ,you'll get more money TODAY, you need it now, so you could have a stable base to plan ahead, not a month after... In the "After" you might have lost all your partners and future deals already.

Siona Windweaver
Placeholder Holdings
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:37:00 - [1554]
 

Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 14/10/2008 12:37:15
Originally by: Amaron Ghant
Originally by: WaiKin Beldar

Ghost training is a unique feature that gives me the option to gain SPs (=ability of doing new or better things in this game)if, for instance, I have to focus my time to other chars,stay away in RL from EVE for long periods, or just chilling out for really long skill times.

Very bad move. Worst strategy.Sad




translation. I like the fact that I can skill for free and spend that subscription money on something else


Wrong, correct translation: I like the fact that i can get a "welcome back present" when i come back. I like it so much, i usually come back just for that "present". Otherwise i wouldn't bother paying for an account.

Gregor Nine
Caldari
Shocky Industries Ltd.
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:37:00 - [1555]
 

so i c this is time to say bye bye and make go go to another mmo. this acc expires and no new subscryptions, and sec...why bother making it active...

bad...i just startin love this game...but as i c market panic makes ur brain damaged ccp and u just doin dumbest thing ever to player community

such a shame

Piter deVriend
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:37:00 - [1556]
 

Originally by: Amaron Ghant
Originally by: WaiKin Beldar

Ghost training is a unique feature that gives me the option to gain SPs (=ability of doing new or better things in this game)if, for instance, I have to focus my time to other chars,stay away in RL from EVE for long periods, or just chilling out for really long skill times.

Very bad move. Worst strategy.Sad




translation. I like the fact that I can skill for free and spend that subscription money on something else


It's not about the money *snip*, it's about the fact they LIE.

Rev Russ
Caldari
Nanoprints
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:37:00 - [1557]
 

Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 13/10/2008 23:33:51
Edited by: Avon on 13/10/2008 23:22:50
I don't mind this change at all as my accounts have always been active, but...

..you'd better be real quick cleaning out the forums of historical CCP posts about this "feature" as it was, before you try to make out it is now a "bug".


Added from my later post:
Hey, your bug...

Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive

I found it in the player guide.

You guys better get in there and ninja-edit it.


Hilarious!! Take ownership CCP, just call it a change within the terms of service. Don't be a bunch of chickens and call it a "bug fix".

Rinaldo Titano
Caldari
Caldari Elite Force
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:39:00 - [1558]
 

Originally by: Simmith
Originally by: Proud American
Because you are a producer I can see why you care more about money than your companies image or your customers.


Customer:

1. a person who purchases goods or services from another; buyer; patron.

Leech:

2. a person who clings to another for personal gain, esp. without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.

The proposed change gets rid of leeches, not customers. Which are you?


I see lot of peoples which here defending DEVS argue that this was free training and should be eliminated.

Agree

The most of the peoples agree with this and are not angry about this(like me) because like me never used this thing and never intend to use.

The problem is not changing rules, not changig prices, not changing the whole game...

THE PROBLEM IS BAD CARE OF CUSTOMERS AND LOT OF LIES

cuculet
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:39:00 - [1559]
 

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We are sorry for any inconvenience caused.
ShockedShockedShocked
i was thinking the patch is suposed to be tomorow...dmg ctrl? Rolling Eyes

Ratio Legis
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.14 12:39:00 - [1560]
 

Originally by: Simmith


Customer:

1. a person who purchases goods or services from another; buyer; patron.

Leech:

2. a person who clings to another for personal gain, esp. without giving anything in return, and usually with the implication or effect of exhausting the other's resources; parasite.

The proposed change gets rid of leeches, not customers. Which are you?

A customer, definitely. Because the game mechanics as they are make sure I *do* give something in return, when I pay a subscription to reactivate the account to switch skills or actually use it, since none of us have alts just so we can capitalize on CCP's much-constrained database space. People are currently taking advantage of a helpful benefit, which is being removed. While nobody disputes CCP's ability to enforce this change, arguing that wanting to have use of the benefit is leeching is logically unsound. Arguing the change is somehow ethical is absurd.


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