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Face deBouc
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:35:00 - [1441]
 

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Oh No

My "funky" ghost alt, Now i must pay like other

ZaKma
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:37:00 - [1442]
 

Let's see if you listen to your customers CCP. I think most people have made the point pretty damned clear here. Our input used to be valued and appreciated. I think this is no longer the case. Prove me wrong.

FalconHawk
Amarr
Shadow Rebellion
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:38:00 - [1443]
 

Edited by: FalconHawk on 14/10/2008 11:39:03
to be honest i donīt realy care for ghost training to be shafted, never used it anyway, but i just realy hate how CCP has become a bunch of lying bastards.
No prob when u change something for the greater good of the game, when there is just a reason.
But this time(and it happens more and more) you simply cancel one of the features that u even quote in your own guide and declare it a "bug" ....

well when will be offline skill training declared a bug?
ffs get your facts straight BEFORE you annouce major changes, with this kind of actions you just loose the trust of your long-time customer base.

every 2 months the playerbase asks for more communication until they cry out that loud that major game sites even hear it, then ccp gives out blogs and dev posts for a month and then stop to communicate again ...
i so miss the old times with devs chatting at the forum, explaining stuff etc, now there is just a desert, filled with nothing more than a nerf from time to time and shafted featuers.

When i have started to play eve 3-4 years ago i thought itīs great to play the game, producers that actualy care, now i just login so i can talk to friends and when they leave the game cause of the bull**** you do lately ...well then there is nothing left from the game i have started to play that long time ago.

but seems that noone is listening to that kind of stuff anyway, maybe just one or two trolls Laughing


Mukiri
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:38:00 - [1444]
 

I do not see the reason for all the whining here. CCP is saying if the account is not active it cannot train, big deal. I mean if you turned off the account then what does it matter. CCP currently give more for free to the players than ANY company out there and yet you are complaining becuase you cannot train a character on a dead account?

I think this is a good move for CCP. It means that they keep their revenue stream active when a player wants and account to be viable. It also means that players are not getting for FREE the same thing others get by having to pay.

As for the idea that CCP might move to pay for expansions, THAT would hurt the game a great deal. Right now one of the BIGGEST selling points for CCP to me as a company is the free expansion system. The Ghost training however is a none issue just and excuse for whiners.

Now continue your whining and please pass the cheese.

Pittsburgh2989
Drusus Tech Enterprises
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:39:00 - [1445]
 

Yup...I just had started an alt, unless he pays for GTC's by the time power of two runs out...donezo...

Way to suck at life CCP - that was a huge selling point of this game. Like was mentioned earlier, how can you just remove ghost training but not the rest of the s*** people get while inactive (market orders? share payouts?)....EPIC FAIL

Mjolnirsmith
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:39:00 - [1446]
 

This news is terrible

I have a main, paid account (6 months at a time). In addition, this particular character is an alt, who 'ghost trained' cruisers V but besides that did everything on paid, gtc time. At the time, ghost training was an enticing feature. It made me reorganize the order in which I train skills so that I could set the long skill to train just as the previous gtc expired. Especially with GTC at 60 days now ghost training doesn't come up that much anyways, and was a way of doing an experiment on making a certain kind of character without the massive initial investment (i.e. you could spread it out a little).

When the last power of two offer came about I accepted it to make a third character, with a completely different kind of specialization.

So you can't label me as a non-paying or barely-paying customer. This complaint is coming from someone who already pays CCP about 3x the monthly fee.

NOw recently, just for the hell of it, I rolled a pirate character. I was going to invest at least 2 GTC to see if this interested me, after carefully plotting some dark training to make the investment last as much as possible.

I think the dark training nerf discourages this kind of experimentation. Dark training is a way of dipping your toe in the pool before you dive in. The thing is, a 'dark trained' character is hard to forget about... in the back of one's mind a thought is like "This toon is getting smarter at lasers, on free time as of last sunday! I better be there for him when that skillbook completes". In short you get players who can experiment, who feel ever-so-slightly like they got a nice occasional free perk, yet they eventually come around and add more gtc to those alts. With this nerf, instead of occasional GTC on some alt's in the eve universe as an extra source of revenue to supplement the regular and active player base, you just have revenue from the highly regular subscriptions only.

I suspect this will make ccp LOSE money in the long run.

Braaage
Ministry of Craft
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:40:00 - [1447]
 

Originally by: ZaKma
Let's see if you listen to your customers CCP. I think most people have made the point pretty damned clear here. Our input used to be valued and appreciated. I think this is no longer the case. Prove me wrong.


Unfortunately I think this is one of those decisions that they wont listen to us on. All this negative err feedback is caused by the way it was announced, calling something a bug and then have it documented in their own documents as a feature is just .... shoot foot time.

I can imagine all CCP bigwigs sat in a room thinking HTF are we gonna get out of this one Razz

dorannl
Gallente
little dot
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:43:00 - [1448]
 

I really dont onderstand this move.

Ghost training is used mostly for alts and people who dont have time or money to play eve. Less people will have alts now. And people have less reason to come back to the game.

Isnt it just better to make a 3 month timecard or something.


Todoshi
Caldari
Caldari Logistics and Supplies
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:43:00 - [1449]
 

you'd think perhaps with 2913 posts (or 2914 with this one) spread accross 2 threads and a total of 98 pages so far, in less than a full day...that maybe they'd ****ed alot of people of and perhaps reconsider or atleast give people a little more time before implementing it.

of course ccp don't give a rats ass about the player base thats clear to see now....

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:44:00 - [1450]
 

Here is my problem with this whole thing.

Fundamentally speaking, every company wants money. That's a "duh". Now CCP, look at it this way (blunt for both sides):

People set long skills because they have an account that they want to train on for a period of time without paying. Whether it be the last day they set a 60 day skill or what have you, they're putting down a way of getting something for essentially nothing.

But at what cost? They can have their character train, but they cannot manipulate or use their character ingame in any way. So essentially, even though they get skillpoints, they do not get isk or any way to further themselves in the game other than skilltraining.

SO

Let's look at CCP's side of this: Apparently they think that they can get the money for the accounts RIGHT NOW. Well, you run into this wall.

Not everyone can simultaneously afford how many accounts they have. Some people have up to 10 accounts I am willing to bet, and I am also willing to bet they pay with their credit card instead of GTCs. So, you have a person shelling out over $150 a month just to play a game.

BUT

They're not always going to keep all those accounts active at once, perhaps. But they will reactivate them as they need them.

CCP, the problem you have created may come back to bite you in the butt. Simply speaking, not realizing that you are receiving continued revenue for people who set their characters to afk train while disabled means that THEY WANT TO COME BACK. They'll pay you for the account again.

Other than CCP wanting more money, I see no other reason for this. The only issue about CCP wanting more money is this will hurt them in the interim.

I'm sure we are going to see a lower subscription count for a month or two, then they will surge back up to just below normal rates. But I honestly can't see an increase in revenue coming from this change.

Naruto Hunter
Euphoria Released
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:44:00 - [1451]
 

Originally by: Mjolnirsmith

t this will make ccp LOSE money in the long run.


Apparently CCP isnt interested in the long run. Maybe its time just to keep milking the cash cow until it dies, the game has been around for 5 years, it is bound to start declining and with most of CCP's efforts directed into their new MMO, they are probably trying to get their hands on as much as they can

Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:45:00 - [1452]
 

Heh.

Considering that most of the people complaining have more than one account the amount of people raging is probably less than 1/5th of the characters posting here.

Speak about a vocal minority.

LaughingLaughingLaughing

SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar
Aperture Science inc.
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:45:00 - [1453]
 

I have read the first 5 pages and last 5 pages of this thread.

Though I have to admit I personally did use ghost training to train up for minmatar battleship 5 while I was away on summer vacation, I do not feel strongly against CCP removing this feature from the game.
Ofcourse I agree with most of you guys for stating that CCP is being hypocrit about calling it a bug when it has been listed in the FEATURES page for years now. CCP what's up with that man?
Removed. Navigator

That being said, I welcome all you people with 2+ accounts to get the hell out of my game ^^
Moar isk for me, really. I have ALWAYS just had ONE account, and even only used ONE character on said account.

From a marketing/business point of view.. it is true that CCP seems to be 'reshaping' EVE Online as a business with the GTC thing and ofcourse now this. (yes as someone mentioned, we could have and DID see this coming).

Personally I don't use GTC's, I pay for eve by bank transfer (which is cheaper than GTCs for cash/time btw) so the GTC change didn't really affect me at all. (I do from time to time buy gtcs and sell em for isk to make my wallet go plop though).

Anyway all in all, I would have to say, as a lot of people have said before me...

To all the quitters,

Not constructive. Navigator.

To CCP and the DEVs, I would like to point out not to take too much head to this thread, as is with all things, the people that reply to threads like these are people with personal interrest in it and don't like it. It is always the whiners and people that disagree that comment on patches and fixed and that sort of things. And since these players are the ones CCP is actually trying to weed out, who cares what they sayRolling Eyes. The main consensus reached between posters on this thread does not in any way represent the EVE Community as a whole, and ghost training is definatelly not one of the 'biggest sellers' for EVE Online as much people in here claim it is. I personally started playing eve oblivious to this feature/bug and only found out about it after almost a year of playtime. And I do believe there are much more people out there like me.

Granted this 'fix' does make EVE Online a little bit less attractive to some people, that's fair enough. It will always still beat the crap out of other MMO's like WoW that have way bigger fundamental issues. (in wow's case for instance, the immaturity of the playerbase).

my 2 cents... anyway.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:45:00 - [1454]
 

Unfortunately I can only see this having the opposite effect and costing CCP money. I lost count of how many people I know who reactivated because they had a skill finish that allowed them to do something they couldn't do before they stopped playing. Without this incentive I see CCP denied years worth of subscriptions to save a month. Why come back and start playing if all you can do upon your return is exactly what you could do before ?

And skills, believe it or not, don't effect other players in the slightest. If you're talking about inactive accounts producing things, start talking about passive RP, given they actually effect the economy. I think the nerf bat landed on the wrong thing here.

I wonder how many of the people that stopped their accounts recently were because of the increased GTC prices or their currency dropping ? I don't imagine any stopping of their skills will cause them to reactivate, but it will more than likely cause them to not ever think about reactivating again.

Porto Exul
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:46:00 - [1455]
 

Next step will be SP shop: 1 mil SP = 100USD, even for an unsubscribed char. Why not ?

Face deBouc
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:46:00 - [1456]
 

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

"Ohhh!!! What!! I cant train an alt without pay?"

Skogen Gump
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:47:00 - [1457]
 

I wonder, would CCP be willing to come to a compromise.

If one account is being actively subscribed, would training be allowed to continue on the 'ghost' accounts held by that same subscriber ?

I bet this would surely this would meet the situation of the players who use Ghost training, especially in light of the recent credit crunch; and it would ensure that CCP get the one thing they need, money!

The only people negatively effected would be those who dont play want to play at all for a month or so at a time, but still expect their toons to be levelled as if they did.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but that doesn't really bother me!

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:47:00 - [1458]
 

Originally by: Braaage
Originally by: ZaKma
Let's see if you listen to your customers CCP. I think most people have made the point pretty damned clear here. Our input used to be valued and appreciated. I think this is no longer the case. Prove me wrong.


Unfortunately I think this is one of those decisions that they wont listen to us on. All this negative err feedback is caused by the way it was announced, calling something a bug and then have it documented in their own documents as a feature is just .... shoot foot time.

I can imagine all CCP bigwigs sat in a room thinking HTF are we gonna get out of this one Razz


I do not think that they really sat around and thought that, I think they simply do not care about their former "base" players. They think that just because the subs seem to grow faster, and because so many of the old timers left, or are just doing on again/off again thing they can pull this stunt.

Personally I am deeply disappointed, this used to be one of the features I have told the noobies about, or people who wanted to start playing. This was a feature I used to use too, I mean it actually drew me back into EVE after a burnout a month or two later - knowing that I had that 30 day skill finished and I can hop into a new shiny ship.

Anyway, if there is anyone left at CCP who is not blinded by greed, and who actually gives a damn about the players, do come by your bosses office and explain to them what "customer loyalty" actually means these days.

Zadren Radek
The Scope
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:47:00 - [1459]
 

Wow. I'm pretty speachless at the furore this has caused. Not that I'm surprised though tbh. CCP really should have seen this reaction coming.

Your attempt at passing this off as a bug to be addressed is a pretty cynical move, since you have been advertising it as a feature for eons.

Please don't feed us flannel about this being implemented as a database saving measure either. We are all well aware that characters in inactive accounts are not deleted - they sit in the database almost indefinately anyway.

All this is, CCP, is a pennypinching measure, in the same way that your GTC changes were.

As I'm in the forces, I spend a lot of time away, in hot sandy places, with no internet access and no way to play or flip skills. I usually have for more important things on my mind than maintaining accounts on an internet spaceship game, you know? If my accounts lapse for whatever reason, while I'm away, I lose out. If, as happens quite often, my skill training completes while I'm away, then I lose out DESPITE paying you people. And for what? My toons to sit idle in a database, because you refuse to implement a skill training queue?

Spiteful CCP, very very spiteful!

Medusa d'Mon
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:48:00 - [1460]
 

Originally by: Horny Scientist
Running tally:

Account closure threats: 945
Actual accounts that will be closed: 200
Closed account holders who tries WoW and comes back to Eve after a month: 180
Extra accounts opened by Fanfest goers: 500
Remaining subscribers: 50000+

80% of statistics are made up on the spot. I was going to say 75% but I decided to round it up.

Hypan
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:48:00 - [1461]
 

i currently run 6 accounts. 5 are live, one is offline. at anyone time 4 of my accounts are live and being used in PVP or Industry.
with this change the one offline account wont come back, she was ment to finish bc5 on saturday and start her life as a commandship pilot.
as the other accounts time out i may transfer then to the 2 mains(mine and the gf's) or more than likly consign them to the dust of eve's inactive acount pile.
so from an economic's issue thats 4 accounts that you wont even see 75% of the yearly subs from.
0% of Ģ110 or 75% of Ģ110... odd choice i feel you have made

hypan

Piter deVriend
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:49:00 - [1462]
 

Originally by: Liranan


You guys need to stop accusing CCP of being greedy. CCP might have lost a lot of money when Icelandic banks collapsed, so they might have a hard time ahead of them.

What the real issue is CCP not telling us beforehand and not consulting with the players. The CSM exists for a reason, or maybe not. Another thing is the way they tried to spin this. You guys should be picking a problem with their claims that this is a bug, while they claim it's "A long overdue and much needed change".

Stop the whining about greed. CCP might have hard times ahead of them.


Totally not the point. CCP get's its money via USD and EUR and NOT through ISK. They PAY their people with ISK so in fact they make a HUGE pile of money because ISK <-> EUR has plunged.

CCP lied about it being a bug, while our beloved J.A. Wrangler said it was a feature. CCP should be named after a very nice state: CCCP.

Janine Ramsey
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:49:00 - [1463]
 

epic fail CCP

Ure Doom
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:49:00 - [1464]
 

Reconsider.

The 'excuse' in the original CCP post fails.
The dev blog's attempt at justification fails.
One of my accts expires in a few days, I wont reactivate it if this change
is implimented as planned at such short notice.

Jac Straw
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:51:00 - [1465]
 

I still can't help lol'ing at this Laughing

Please stop ghost Sell/Buy Orders and Research Points too!!!!!!

ju4n1ta
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:54:00 - [1466]
 

Edited by: ju4n1ta on 14/10/2008 11:55:37
Now that we have this behind us... where the **** is my training queue??!?

EDIT: If you'ro going through with this remove ghost trading, remove ghost RP whoring, remove ghost everything (maybe even offline POSes if all corp POS management chars go inactive).
Ghost training is the least of your concerns... you are just money grabbing bastards.

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:54:00 - [1467]
 

When are inactive accounts going to be deleted ? Because unless you have monkey with below average intelligence coding your database, an account with training skills should have no more load than one not training. The very reason 'ghost training' is possible is because of this fact, that you don't have to actually 'check' if the skill is completed until someone logs in.

Suga H
Gallente
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:55:00 - [1468]
 

Originally by: Face deBouc
"Ohhh!!! What!! I cant train an alt without pay?"


Nope. Can't even let the time pass without paying now.

Ghost training accomplishes a whole lot of nothing. It simply gave people a reason to go out and spend some RL time for a month. Or spend time on another account.

You have to pay to use the account. You have to pay to use the skill you ghosted. You have to pay to change skills.

Money makes the world go 'round. And apparently now it's required for time to flow as well.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:55:00 - [1469]
 

Public Relations 4tw.

CCP The idea was sound, but your implementation was utter fail.

Just how many times can you shoot yourself in the foot?

Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2008.10.14 11:56:00 - [1470]
 

About time this happened.

ROFL at all you scrounging turds wanting **** for free!






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