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ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:45:00 - [1231]
 

Originally by: NereSky
Originally by: Delos Korelian
Originally by: Jinx Barker

... ever since the "old" guard of the developers left active EVE online roles CCP customer service, CCP customer attunes, and general CCP attitude toward its player base has gone to ****.




Aint that the truth


Qft

/signed
things havnt been the same since old devs left.
the new ones just dont seem to have the same understanding of the game

Kcahrah
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:46:00 - [1232]
 

Money Money Money

the difference between us dollard and euro that CCP don't care about it,
after that the 60 Day GTC, for make more money because guys buy card one month after one month

now the ghost training ^^, NO it's not for money claim CCP it's just a bug fixing

5 year for a bug fixing ?? don't lie to your customer you just want us to pay in continue

in other game dual account is forbiden maybe you can fix this bug too ??

want to win money ?
now you lose one more customer THX CCP

maya ibuki2
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:46:00 - [1233]
 

/me wonders if ccp are ever gonna be honest about this batch of frakking pathetic lies their trying to fool us all with. as an aside, i, like others, have taken a screendump of the FAQ, which states that training while accounts are inactive is a feature of this game, and is infact one of teh selling points; so that when ccp do get round to ninja'ing the FAQ, well all have plenty of copies of the truth to spam them with.

i dont personally care about the training thing, its the utter bullsh*t were getting fed about it thats got me hacked right off: ccp need to learn to treat its playerbase with the respect it deserves!!

James Marshalll
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:47:00 - [1234]
 

Originally by: Hamlin Brown
So you have to pay to play the game, thats the idea stupid.

If you want to train skills then pay for it, don't cry like a baby when a bug is fixed. What happens if the whole player base starts doing this? We won't have a game ? Do you think the programmers work for free ?

The best things in life are free, eve is not one of them.


before you call people "stupid" you should think further then the edge of your seat about what you are saying.

What Ghost training did for a lot of players was give them incentive to come BACK to the game after a month hiatus for whatever reason. What this did was allow people who were burnt out, couldn't afford it for a month, or just wanted to go outside to still keep up while knowing full well in a month they would be coming back.

For example: I used to play eq, I worked at SCEA. When we would have a new title in production I would be gone for a month or two at a time because I put in 15+ hours a day 7 days a week. When I came back to the game I was so far behind in flags, gear, and levels I quit.

EQ2: Same thing, not as harsh since EQ2 leveling is pretty simple and I had exp potions from my vet status rewards. After a week of realizing I wasn't keeping pace I quit.

WoW: well, lets be honest, I never played =P I can call a ****ty game when I see one haha.

You know the only game that ever had me coming back after release of whatever project I happened to be working on at the time? Eve. Know why? Because while I was gone I was still able to advance. There would be 3 months where I would train for 2 and only pay for one, but in the end over 4-5 years of playing I ALWAYS came back.

now, knowing me, and knowing my past I doubt I will ever resub if I need to take an extended break.

I also wanted to add, the tired excuse of you have to pay to play is used and old. I am not "playing" the game while training the skill, even when I am subbed. I am not taking up bandwith on my inactive account, I am not participating in any large scale battles, and I was a reliable source of income for multiple accounts over a given year. Sure maybe not 12 months out of the year, but a good portion of it. Now? I may stick to one account, and if I do ever have to quit for a month there will be the thought of just not coming back. Am I threatening to leave? Nope not right now, but after you get kicked in the teeth so many times, pretty soon there is no teeth left to kick.

Clone 1
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:48:00 - [1235]
 

You can **** off your customers only so many times CCP. This time it's different.

LIES, and MONEY do not go down well.

Enjoy the drama.

Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:50:00 - [1236]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer

That is the first time ccp is bloody lying into my face and I'm really really angry about that.



No it's not. That's only the first time it's that obvious.

Skogen Gump
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:52:00 - [1237]
 

Originally by: rens research

IT IS NOT A BUG

CCP even sell it as a feature of the game as per the players guide


It may just be that it wasn't enough of a bug to just not be fixed at first, so they said it was a feature - like Jet can Mining and the other things that have happened in Eves time.
It does sound like its just hit critical mass now.

That said, I'm only for this change if it benefits my gameplay somehow. I'm a developer in real life and I know well enough that you shouldn't change stuff just for the hell of it. That way, bugs lays!

RedRage88
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:52:00 - [1238]
 

From bad to worse, i really hope this doesn't kill eve.

Johnny Gurkha
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:52:00 - [1239]
 

As my post on page 1 was removed I'll remove the profanity and say it again, CCP you fail

Pallidum Treponema
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:54:00 - [1240]
 

CCP. I'm a tech. I work in IT. I'm a bloody good tech, which means that I not only know how to produce a good product, but I also know how to make my customers happy. But enough about that.

Here's how this used to work (in pseudocode):

skill = lastUpdate + timeSinceLastUpdate * skillTrainingSpeed

To fix this "bug", you would simply need to do the following:

if accountExpiredSinceLastSkillUpdate() then
skill = lastUpdate + (timeUntilAccountExpired + timeSinceAccountWasRenewed) * skillTrainingSpeed
else
skill = lastUpdate + timeSinceLastUpdate * skillTrainingSpeed
endif

A change like that takes what? One minute? Let's say it has to go through peer review, version control, branching, planning etc. Total time, what? Half an hour?

How long did it take you to write the announcements and devblogs about it? Half an hour? More? ;)


I also don't buy the fact that this was a bug. Sorry, I don't. For it to have been a bug, the original developers would've had to COMPLETELY mess up their design of the skill system. This is not a "feature" that you miss for a total of five years. If it was a bug, it would've been fixed the FIRST time you spotted it. And, as I just proved, a change like that would take what? An hour tops? Heck, let's say one day since I know how development works at times.

One single day to fix a bug, over the course of five years? Assuming you've had 20 developers on average for the past 5 years, it would've been a single day out of 36500, to fix a bug that so badly affected not only the game balance, but CCP as a business.

The fact that your own new players guide, as well as responses by CCP Wrangler on the forums state that you've been aware of this "bug" for quite a while without doing anything about it, further proves my claim that this was never a bug in the first place.

Stoffl
The Executives
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:55:00 - [1241]
 

Edited by: Stoffl on 14/10/2008 08:57:34
Edited by: Stoffl on 14/10/2008 08:56:32
OH NOES! IT'S A BUG! LETS PUT UP A DEVBLOG CLAIMING THAT 5 YEARS LATER! AND LETs NINJA THE EVE-GUIDE FOR GOOD.

Someone make a Ragequitcounter for this new feature. Twisted Evil
*ImaginePicardFacepalm*

rens research
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:56:00 - [1242]
 

Originally by: Skogen Gump
Originally by: rens research

IT IS NOT A BUG

CCP even sell it as a feature of the game as per the players guide


It may just be that it wasn't enough of a bug to just not be fixed at first, so they said it was a feature - like Jet can Mining and the other things that have happened in Eves time.
It does sound like its just hit critical mass now.

That said, I'm only for this change if it benefits my gameplay somehow. I'm a developer in real life and I know well enough that you shouldn't change stuff just for the hell of it. That way, bugs lays!


I very much doubt that, can you name any other time a bug or problem with a program is sold as a "FEATURE" only later to be removed.

Its an obvious ploy for CCP to attempt to make more money ( as a business thats fine ), but up front telling BS about the reason is not.

Im sure that if they said they were just removing it and not trying to make out some BS about it being a bug, a lot of people wouldnt be as mad as they are.

I for one have now cancelled 6 paid accounts based, not on the ghost training coming in, but CCP lieing through their teeth

Jasqar
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:56:00 - [1243]
 

Well this does not make sense to me.

Talking of costing you money:)

This last stint i paid you 2 (for 2 accounts) back to back 3 month subs. Was going to take a 36 day or so break while marauder 5 trained on both accounts.

Would of re subbed then for both accounts for 3 months each.

Now? You get 0 from me ever again. Make sense to you?

I have not even logged in other than to change skills for months, so not like i was costing you much in bandwidth either:)

So long EVE, no reason to come back this way again.

Oh -2 accounts if anyone bothering to keep count. Yes they were sporadic in paying you at times, but always came back in the end...till now.



Cyrus Ageis
Pytheas search
Exodus Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:59:00 - [1244]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker

... ever since the "old" guard of the developers left active EVE online roles CCP customer service, CCP customer attunes, and general CCP attitude toward its player base has gone to ****.




QFT...

Where's Kieron when you need him? Sad

Todoshi
Caldari
Caldari Logistics and Supplies
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:59:00 - [1245]
 

Pyramid quote removed. Navigator

QFT

on the plus side it means never again will i be paying out for 3 subs at any one time, both my alts that have been worked on will be resigned to the pit of inactivity forever....perhaps even my main will too

ATARI BABY
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.10.14 08:59:00 - [1246]
 

player guide still same Shocked

Seeker Ash
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:00:00 - [1247]
 

Edited by: Seeker Ash on 14/10/2008 09:28:56
Edited by: Seeker Ash on 14/10/2008 09:25:24
Edited by: Seeker Ash on 14/10/2008 09:24:36
Edited by: Seeker Ash on 14/10/2008 09:12:22
I'm worried about the ferocity with which people argue if ghost training should be allowed or not. (It should, too bad for you if you like playing the game so much that you keep playing even when it gets boring to us lesser players and you just can't stand that, but it's a unique perk that sets the game apart and makes players happy and a happy playerbase keeps the game online.)

The real issue as I see it is if the game has a future, or if it will continue to provide less content for more money until not enough players remain. I've lost all interest in playing now because I can't trust if the time, money and emotional commitment I put into the game will come to nothing a few years from now. Maybe I'm alone in this.

Sidenote: Just so you all know, "Lose" is the opposite of "Gain", "Loose" is the opposite of "Tight". I've seen this mistake like 20 times in this thread and the old one, they can't all be spelling errors.
Originally by: Rinaldo Titano
but i hope u loose so many subscribers that u need to close

Come on. . .
Originally by: Glengrant
ISK BUYER = LOOSER

Jeez, you put it in your sig.
Originally by: Llywellyn
loose
Quote:
It's like a plague. :(7

Skogen Gump
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:01:00 - [1248]
 

Originally by: rens research


I for one have now cancelled 6 paid accounts based, not on the ghost training coming in, but CCP lieing through their teeth


Post their names or it didn't happen ;)

Mike Vandenberg
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:01:00 - [1249]
 

Right now I run 3 accounts. By the end of this year it will be only 1. Why? Because I cannot Ghost-Train anymore.

-2 accounts

Mike Vandenberg

Rinaldo Titano
Caldari
Caldari Elite Force
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:05:00 - [1250]
 

The 60day GTC was not important for me. I can afford for isk even if would double the price, or just buy it in eu, so not a big change for me.
I never used ghost training, because i liked to play my characters

But by every time u want more money u lying to us is unacceptable to me.
U dont fixing lag(or at least not successfull) u dont fixing ships which are broken. u dont fixing things which the playerbase want to be fixed.

U make shiny new features like FW or walking on station which are unmportant for the older playerbase and are just shiny for new customers.
So u make just changes which get u more money from existing customers or get new customers. All other changes can wait.....

And than u even LIAING about.....

This changes dont touch me, but i lost my interest in eve and lost my belive in devs, so after my subscription is done im out of this game.

P.S. and not u cant get my stuff. and be happy because if i would give u would play more and devs would get more money and would lie to u again and again.

I liked eve, and im sorry for the playerbase, but i hope u loose so many subscribers that u need to close

Horny Scientist
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:06:00 - [1251]
 

Yes yes!!!!!!!! You will all cancel your accounts!!! Thats right, ALL the inactive ghost training accounts!!!!!!!!

Niraco79
Gallente
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:07:00 - [1252]
 

i do not ghost training at all as i have too few accounts but yeah i laugh at your marketing guys. They need a little lesson in psychology of the customer before making a decision.

Rinaldo Titano
Caldari
Caldari Elite Force
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:10:00 - [1253]
 

Originally by: Horny Scientist
Yes yes!!!!!!!! You will all cancel your accounts!!! Thats right, ALL the inactive ghost training accounts!!!!!!!!


No. For example i cancel 2 accounts which was fully played and payed in last 2 years. Never tried ghost training and never inactivated the accounts.

Just too much LIES

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:13:00 - [1254]
 

Oh well. I kept all my accounts active through the last years, even while a long skill was being trained.

I think I will emoragequit... 0 accounts.

Grojar Flesp
Gallente
SQS Group
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:13:00 - [1255]
 

Edited by: Grojar Flesp on 14/10/2008 09:16:56
Don't do the ghost training, but.... it still is a bit silly to revoke this feature. As seen on the other pages in this thread, it is indeed a feature, not a bug.

Thing is, is it necessary for CCP to revoke it? Does it need the ‘extra’ money or does it need to purge its databases? I don’t know, the message from the Dev’s was a bit dodgy and therefore I’m against this ‘improvement’. On the database bit, if it can't handle 100K+ subscribers, you need to redesign it, not purge it. Or do you intend to stay at the same account numbers (and thus not grow in the future)?

Finally some advice: Don't implement this, it doesn't do you any good CCP.

Edit:
2 more things:
1st. Why did you not communicate this earlier (to give people time to reactivate their account and move their char's, or sell them)?
2nd. Why not decrease the speed of training for inactive accounts? People still will have a choice and can decide if they want to activate the account, or accept that training a e.g. BS5 skill takes a bit longer, say twice as long?



rens research
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:14:00 - [1256]
 

Originally by: Skogen Gump
Originally by: rens research


I for one have now cancelled 6 paid accounts based, not on the ghost training coming in, but CCP lieing through their teeth


Post their names or it didn't happen ;)


CCP can trace the accounts from this toon, they will know if they check, thats all that matters

Karma
Vortex Incorporated
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:14:00 - [1257]
 

Originally by: Horny Scientist
Yes yes!!!!!!!! You will all cancel your accounts!!! Thats right, ALL the inactive ghost training accounts!!!!!!!!

they went active whenever they wanted to change their skill-training... and then they were actively playing for a month, sometimes more.

no more. that's revenue lost. pure and simple.

Maranthoric
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:16:00 - [1258]
 

Been playing for 4 years now and wanted to finally start a new character. As I don't have the patience to re-train the learning skills (that already robbed me of 5 weeks of training from my original character thanks to introduction of lower requirements without compensation of those who had to train all the bases to 5 before *that* patch) I was planning on ghosting them all up to 5 over the next few months before activating the account full-time. Guess I can just let that one go out the door then as I refuse to pay $60 to simply have *1* single character that can now start training skills again.

Also, about this being because it isn't fair to the players who don't use this method ... how exactly does it make it better by then punishing them ? Now we have to pay a greater fee for multiple accounts than those who did this for the past 5 years ?

If you're going to stop a "bug" because there is a breach in the game mechanics then you should compensate those that were victims of it's "exploitation" in the first place. If this has been going on since release, then why shouldn't I have access to another character with 70,000,000 skill points as that is what I should have if I was exploiting the system as you claim everyone else was doing while you were aware of this bug.

Hell if y'all are gonna take that route, mind as well limit the amount of SP's on characters to around 30M so that people will have to have an account for every ship class or job they would ever want to do in EVE, imagine the profits that you would turn out! Rolling Eyes

... Is it just me, or does it seem like every year it gets easier and easier to not play this game anymore ?

ThunderGodThor
KIA Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:16:00 - [1259]
 

Originally by: Pallidum Treponema
The fact that your own new players guide, as well as responses by CCP Wrangler on the forums state that you've been aware of this "bug" for quite a while without doing anything about it, further proves my claim that this was never a bug in the first place.


/me waves at Pallidum excorp mate.

Just for the record CCP fixed this on the china server what year and half or 2 years ago. The statements at the time were this was to remain a feacher on this server. If any one wants to be post ****s feel free to go looking back through it all. But if ccp want to commit suicide in this let them there own stupidity. I do suspect that it wont remain too long as from what happened last time. after all it was a messup on the patch notes missing the note taht it only was for china caused a **** storm last time.

Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2008.10.14 09:17:00 - [1260]
 

Originally by: Lijhal
i do not understand, why after 5 years, they are changing this "feature" of EvE-Online into a "bug" ... 5 god damned years !!!


Tolerating rare use is different from seeing this become more common.
Of course if that bug/feature never existed there would be 0 whines about it now. And I don't believe anybody who claims that ghost training made him start playing EVE. And if GT was all that kept someone in game - bye bye.

Originally by: Lijhal

So, if you are going to change this, please consider to give the player base following options:

1. movement of characters for FREE onto other accounts, for, lets say, a month


Might be a good idea.

Originally by: Lijhal

2. the option to merge existing characters into one



Bad idea for several reasons - main one being that it is too troublesome to begin with.

Originally by: Lijhal
3. Skill Queque


Won't happen - and for good reasons. Main one being that skill queues make it way too efficient for char farmers to mass produce chars for sale.
Also this is way overestimated. So your skill finishes in the middle of the night and you loose a couple hours before you start the next skill - big deal (not).
People talk like it is important to have trained every single hour - it really is not.

Originally by: Lijhal
4. All characters on one Account can learn Skills


Again makes it too easy to mass produce chars for sale.
Also would encourage people to fill all char slots so they can reap maximum SP per account. EVE does not need more alts.

Originally by: Lijhal

1. More content, more ships



There's plenty of ships already. I'd like them to concentrate on some other stuff for a few patches.
More content - always good. But the main content of EVE is and always was - other people. NPCs can't really compete with that.

Originally by: Lijhal
more missions


Rather make the current number more clever and varied.

Originally by: Lijhal

more 0.0



Not much point - will all be claimed on day 1.

Originally by: Lijhal
please stay unique and no not become something similiar like SoE ... goddamned!

is this so hard ?



CCP/EVE is nothing like SoE/SWG.

Threads like this one is just your regular whine threadnaught. The change is not evil. It won't destroy the game. Half the guys who say they will cancel all accounts won't. Most of those that do won't be missed.

I'm with those who wondered why this didn't happen sooner.
This could/should have happened 2004 - so just be happy about the up to 4 years of extra time of ghost training you had.

Anybody who quits over this - good riddance. The game will be better without your type.


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