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Materia Hunter
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:27:00 - [31]
 

Quote:
Ghost Training was an unintended feature where unpaid accounts of EVE Online were able to continue training skills. While this allowed players to run multiple characters on a shoestring budget, in all effect, this was a bug.


A bug that took you 5 years to fix?

Quote:
Now a single customer that doesn't log into the servers may not weigh heavily on our database infrastructure, just as a single snowflake isn't that heavy, hardly a measurable quantity. But it's hard not to notice an avalanche if it hits you. And that's what was starting to happen in our database.


If your database is having issues managing something as basic as skill training, you have serious internal issues that need to be addressed.
If it really is a database problem - fix the database.


Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:28:00 - [32]
 

Thank you for stopping the army of alts who ran 5-8 accounts by dark training them in rotation.

As I said before, I pay for 3 accounts 100% of the time, even when I'm called away for a month or more. I don't mind as I set a long skill and when I come back I have gained more skill points. Same when I burn out, I take a few months off but never do I stop paying. The way I see it is I have the right to play this way as I pay for it, but others have gotten away with robbing CCP and the player base by dark training.

Now with this fixed, can CCP look in to setting up a queue for skills?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:28:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Phyridean
You don't suppose the recent surge you saw in this was people not having the extra cash for a game subscription hoping to come back in after the worldwide financial difficulties?

Doing this won't gain those players back, it will lose them. Irrevocably.


oooh, wait till next month's blog. Rolling Eyes

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:28:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 13/10/2008 23:28:21
/paranoia on
I haven't seen this big of a fallout for an online game since the NGE SOE pulled on people.

/paranoia off
/tinfoilhat
/cowers and awaits the possible outcome.

Aganola
Amarr
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:28:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Aganola on 13/10/2008 23:28:16
back:

at least they are a bit more honest now: "We figure out how to maximize our returns. "

"But recently we have seen a surge in this behavior in a way that we were essentially supporting and maintaining a large number of customers that weren't paying us regular subscriptions. That's not fair towards CCP as a service provider and it's not fair towards other players that pay a subscription but don't make use of this bug."

two things:

1: something that has been IN the game for more than 4 years is not a bug anymore it's a feature


2: while being AFK you DO NOT provide any service for us... API update is disabled (EVEMON anyone?), can't log on, can't do jack just to watch a JavaScript timer count down to zero... that is 'A' service?


Deco Beco
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:28:00 - [36]
 

CCP has probably never had as much income as of right now because of weak Icelandic Krona vs. Euro or US dollar. Why is did you announce this change now if it wasn't suppose to be like this? It has been like this for 5 years so I betting you're getting greedy.

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:28:00 - [37]
 

I would seriously suggest that CCP look into some form of skill queue now, considering there's no reason not to (you can't skill queue for the next year and go away-from-game to have everything trained for <insert ship class here>)

Oddly enough, I have ghost training to thank for Logistics V and BSV, so hey

Inanna Zuni
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:29:00 - [38]
 

It will be interesting in a few months to check the status of all the people who have gone "OHNOES!!!11!!!! I'M QUITTING" and see just how many are still in game.

This is a long overdue closing of a loophole that let people benefit unfairly and I for one am very happy with it.

IZ

Ivor Gunn
No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:29:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Avon
If you weren't paying for them all at the same time anyway, who cares?


Becauise now it'll go from 4 accounts active for 6 months of the year to 1 account active at the most. Best case scnario is that CCP have halved their income from that player.

To use the analogy from the blog: snowflakes. expand that to 1000 players and ccp's income has just taken a sizable hit.

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:29:00 - [40]
 

So uh how exactly is this going to work, will skills stop where they are on wednesday on inactive accounts or get reset back to what they were when account ran out ?

You guys do realize you're going to lose a few thousand accounts solely because of this right ?

If you want more money which is the only message I can see in the devblog you're going about it the wrong way.

LordSwift
Caldari
The Riot Act
Sacra Cupola
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:29:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
Its final then.

Either give us easier skill-training methods (like the already-demanded-for skill queue, even 1 skill deep would suffice) or expect the massive drop of customer satisfaction and the effect of lost subscriptions.

I myself will shout my dissatisfaction by not renewing my only account. Thank you for the time CCP, but your decision basically killed off one of the few great things about EVE to me, personally.


One of the main reasons you played this game was so you could sit on your ass not pay for this game while ur character trains. Good bye, their is the door. have fun with WoW.
CCP wants their player base to PLAY the game and PAY for it, like any other business. get used to it.

Suga H
Gallente
Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium
Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:29:00 - [42]
 

"maintaining a large number of customers that weren't paying us regular subscriptions."

Except that they had to pay if they wanted to use the character at any point in the future. Meaning people could take breaks and not be screwed out of time or money.

"There was a way to progress a character in EVE without an active subscription"

Ghosting Gal BS V didn't get me anything. I didn't advance any further in the game. Training the skill didn't buy me any capital ship skills. It didn't buy me a Kronos. It didn't earn me anything, it simply saved me time, and money, and allowed me to afford to be active on a second account.
When I resubbed with the first account, I didn't log on with anything new, other than the ability to train another skill (however without the ability to afford it, having not been active on that account).

"Players now have to pay a subscription for characters to have them progress"

They had to anyway. Now they have to pay to allow time to pass.

Fastercart
Gallente
Ornery Cantankerous Curmudgeons
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:29:00 - [43]
 

I still say this should have been done before your current (even though it was supposed to end on the 10th) Power of 2 promotion, and not during the end. A lot of people would not have accepted the offer had they known this was coming. In turn, this would have eased the strain on CCP's database.

FalconBayerskt
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:29:00 - [44]
 

"We truly hope that the community will understand our actions and continue to enjoy playing EVE as much as we enjoy making it."

I do understand the effect of yor action however I will not continue to play this game anymore. I have to draw my line somehwere, IT ENDS HERE, Mr. Torfi Frans Olafsson

-1 account = less money for CCP




Midge Mo'yb
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:29:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler
As the recent news stated, we will disable the ability to train skills on a suspended account. Since this has caused a lot of debate we've decided to explain why we are making this change in a new Dev Blog by t0rfifrans: Why ghost training was disabled.



money grab, Everyone has been affected by the "credit crunch" this may have forced alot of people to cut expenditure.

and all out cut on inactive = canceled skill is ****e i never ever have my account on auto renew as my visa debit card isnt my main bank account and if i forget to put the cash into it, and ccp bill me i end up with stupid overdraft fees (15 overdraft + 15 a day overdrawn, takes 2 days for letter to arrive....) i think a 2-4 week leaway would be more appropriate than a instant cutoff....

but this is going to cost you more than its gonna make you, can see that much coming, as my on and off 3rd alt if now getting transfered to my main's account

LordSwift
Caldari
The Riot Act
Sacra Cupola
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:30:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: dropouthighschoolteacher
Hi.

Unsubbed all my accounts.

I truly hope that CCP will understand my actions.


Please contract all your stuff to me. Good bye

Maconha
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:30:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Edited by: Ivor Gunn on 13/10/2008 23:26:13
Edited by: Ivor Gunn on 13/10/2008 23:25:43
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Quote:
Ghost Training was an unintended feature


No it wasn't. You've sold this game on that feature, and endorsed it in posts dozens, if not hundreds of times.

Pure hypocrisy.


CCP now u lie to your custumers???? OH my god...you really must be desperated

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:30:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: Avon
If you weren't paying for them all at the same time anyway, who cares?


Becauise now it'll go from 4 accounts active for 6 months of the year to 1 account active at the most. Best case scnario is that CCP have halved their income from that player.

To use the analogy from the blog: snowflakes. expand that to 1000 players and ccp's income has just taken a sizable hit.


A loophole that CCP devs have referred to as a feature...

Booomer
Micro Laboratories
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:30:00 - [49]
 

OMG IT WAZ A BUG

.... I mean, seriously, hire a guy that will write the smart stuff for you, mr. Olaffson. You're pretty bad at this.

Jaxxon Voers
The Scope
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:30:00 - [50]
 

Quote:
But recently we have seen a surge in this behavior in a way that we were essentially supporting and maintaining a large number of customers that weren't paying us regular subscriptions



You mean your servers were calulating a few more digits each day in the database, while it was doing its normal calculations? Don't compound the lie about balance with this new and even more insulting lie. In fact, people who train while expired are no different than people who train while offline. They dont use any resources at all other than some math inside the database.

Its money. Period. Be men and just say, "It's all about the money, we need more, so we are gonna tighten the ship up"

At least then we would be having an honest discussion about the changes.

Ted's Slave
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:30:00 - [51]
 

Torfi Frans Olafsson you are a star! you are the first person to find that the server logs showed something.....shame it took over five years to find it though.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:32:00 - [52]
 

Hey, your bug...

Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive

I found it in the player guide.

You guys better get in there and ninja-edit it.

Tappits
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:32:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk

You guys do realize you're going to lose a few thousand accounts solely because of this right ?


a few thousand out of 250k does not sound bad will just get rid of all the inactive alts training titan 5

LordSwift
Caldari
The Riot Act
Sacra Cupola
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:32:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Bloody Rabbit
Thank you for stopping the army of alts who ran 5-8 accounts by dark training them in rotation.

As I said before, I pay for 3 accounts 100% of the time, even when I'm called away for a month or more. I don't mind as I set a long skill and when I come back I have gained more skill points. Same when I burn out, I take a few months off but never do I stop paying. The way I see it is I have the right to play this way as I pay for it, but others have gotten away with robbing CCP and the player base by dark training.

Now with this fixed, can CCP look in to setting up a queue for skills?


Exactly how i feel. i do exactly the same. With only one account.

Col Carter
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:32:00 - [55]
 

Well, I should slap myself for having a read on these forums, bumping into this amazing example of product marketing and raising an eyebrow or two. And this blog is an even greater insult to intelligence.


EVE's a pretty mature game these days, one where even if some of the old crowd are gone there is a visible continuation of care for the game, and not just for the product. Over the years we have seen some amazing marketing hickups, which is normal in any company, but this is getting to a point where the trend of care is taking a nosedive.

Not so much because of the dynamics of this change, though any virtual product marketeer can name a few dozen hands on examples of the high value of nurturing product bonuses beyond the basic attributes, but because of the methods involved and the rapid succession of several other critical changes.

I've spent the last 3 weeks travelling between my own country, the UK and iceland, after having been asked to come of retirement to assist as a financial auditor and advisor, and regardless of the difference in markets and niches I am a bit shocked to observe the same schools of marketing and financial prospect management which are visible in what was once this wonderful EVE as in the recently "traditional" but oh so dangerous schools of economic thought outside of this particular virtual market.

Combined with the GTC product changes, and now tapping into the value elements of the product "EVE", it's a pretty neat case of how a school of thought can initiate a grand move in the wrong direction. Almost funny, when the GTC changes were announced I predicted folks this very change, and even though personally ghost training or its absence makes little difference to me, the manner and form of the change - once more - confirms the trend of the past 11 months.

Long term product streamlining is one thing, separating the product from the subscriber is perhaps a means of crowd control, but it is a method ill suited for long term continuation of a product where the product and the subscriber cannot be seperated from a marketing perspective.

In earlier days the same attempt to remove ghost training was made, a long time ago now. A time where it would have been possible, in contrast to these days where the bonus value elements of a virtual subscription product are so essential to make the product itself both stand out as well as keep the subscribers at an extremely low treshold to always come back.

I can see the financial prospects, such projections are not too difficult nor is the reasoning behind it. I can also see the short term view, as well as the long term view, and I think CCP is very wise to not explore those two topics too much and instead take it on in a step by step fashion.

But these and coming changes will make EVE a game among a sea of others, without the low tresholds that lets people come back, without the foundation for trust of subscribers in the product they come to adore and appreciate alike over time, and the company making that experience in the same breath.

This is hardly a change made because of a distorted view of equality or balance, providing that as an argument is an insult to the intelligence of any subscriber with a little bit of economics education I must admit. In financial terms this will not damage CCP, far from, it will be another step to a changed service model, unfortunately just not the type of service model which people value so much. But a model far more in tune with the rest of the industry, away from the EVE as it is in many, many aspects.

Thomas Jay
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:33:00 - [56]
 

Good Job CCP I don't see how your going to maximize money when half your player base is telling you BYE BYE to there alt accounts.

1. You screwed us over with the GTC's
2. Your Losing at the minimum 1 account per player.
3. I have no idea how this is "max out your income" you will be losing money.

Amazing Marketing Idea.

Maria Huana
Caldari
Pact Of Honour
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:34:00 - [57]
 

http://www.eve-online.com/features/

??????

Itzena
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:34:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Avon
Hey, your bug...

Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive

I found it in the player guide.

You guys better get in there and ninja-edit it.

P Lansdale
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:35:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Avon
Hey, your bug...

Skills continue training even if you are logged off or if your account is inactive

I found it in the player guide.

You guys better get in there and ninja-edit it.


QFE

LordSwift
Caldari
The Riot Act
Sacra Cupola
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:35:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Suga H
"maintaining a large number of customers that weren't paying us regular subscriptions."

Except that they had to pay if they wanted to use the character at any point in the future. Meaning people could take breaks and not be screwed out of time or money.

"There was a way to progress a character in EVE without an active subscription"

Ghosting Gal BS V didn't get me anything. I didn't advance any further in the game. Training the skill didn't buy me any capital ship skills. It didn't buy me a Kronos. It didn't earn me anything, it simply saved me time, and money, and allowed me to afford to be active on a second account.
When I resubbed with the first account, I didn't log on with anything new, other than the ability to train another skill (however without the ability to afford it, having not been active on that account).

"Players now have to pay a subscription for characters to have them progress"

They had to anyway. Now they have to pay to allow time to pass.


And that is how it should be. Pay to train. You dont pay your character does not train skills.


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