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Brother Welcome
Amarr
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.10.16 15:47:00 - [4051]
 

Edited by: Brother Welcome on 16/10/2008 15:48:29
Originally by: Grismar
I can only agree with the decision to fix it in the first place, it's a stupid feature and only supports RMT character farming. But I think it's just plain stupid to have waited this long.

Right now, you leave people no other choice than believing that the only reason you left it in was to inflate the number of people that had active accounts from time to time, to improve the image of the corporation with investors and for purposes of promotion.


You raise an interesting point. Does it seem likely that CCP incorporated the feature to inflate user statistics? My view is that it's tin-foil hattery to believe that, but since they still have ghost-research and ghost-trading some inflation must still apply.

So far as RMT goes, CCP sanctions RMT by selling GTCs and facilitating their conversion to ISK. You might find that objectionable, but ghost-skilling has nothing to do with it.

You could make a solid case suggesting that ghost-skilling exerts a downward pressure on character trade prices, but you also need to show how that matters. Having expressed a distaste for RMT, you contradict yourself if you argue that character trade prices should be higher.

-vk

Velda Chulai
Posted - 2008.10.16 15:52:00 - [4052]
 

I'm not sure what to buy more: That Shar is obviously trolling this thread or that Navigator hasn't caught up to that yet.

There is no rage but emo-rage!

Nate D
Hell's Rejects
The Council.
Posted - 2008.10.16 15:55:00 - [4053]
 

Come on CCP... Call this off already and apologize! Then we can work towards the goal of disabling this, TOGETHER, as a community. It will require change to the game, the way skills and multiple accounts are handled.

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2008.10.16 15:57:00 - [4054]
 

Originally by: Cutesmile
Man you are one realy pesky idiot, who cant bear if anyone said truth.
I enjoyed you calling me an idiot. I mean an NPC corp hugging courier mission running alt is obviously the deliverer of truth.

So sayeth the alts, so sayeth we rabble - rabble.

(Don't these people realize I can't be trolled into getting banned? When I get banned it is because I choose it.Twisted Evil)

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:17:00 - [4055]
 

Originally by: Xhanti
Originally by: Clansworth
Even after the change, I still feel that EVE has the best skill system of any MMO out there, simply because you don't have to Grind for XP. You can spend your playing time actually PLAYING the game, and not worry about focusing on bettering your character. This change is not affecting that at all.


"bettering" your character IS the game, else go to a chat room and play D&D.


I guess you and I are playing a completely different game. I enjoy actually flying the ship. I enjoy combat. I enjoy the logistical challenge of running an industrial process. THIS is what I enjoy about EvE. If all you wanted to do was 'level up', why don't you go play any of the other MMORPG's out there that FOCUS on that?

IronPants
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:23:00 - [4056]
 

Originally by: Xhanti
Originally by: Clansworth
Even after the change, I still feel that EVE has the best skill system of any MMO out there, simply because you don't have to Grind for XP. You can spend your playing time actually PLAYING the game, and not worry about focusing on bettering your character. This change is not affecting that at all.


"bettering" your character IS the game, else go to a chat room and play D&D.



The flip side to this..if you want that shiny capital ship (poor soul) you get to train battleship V and other fun long skills..which are simply the most ingenious time sinks out.Besides buying +5 implants and learning skills (time sink to lessen a greater time sink)... nothing can be done to speed that up. Now your paying for 2-3 months subscription to get that shiney new toy trained..and they know if you want it they got ya by the gonads cash wise.

Sometimes it might be better to grind xp than wait a month-3 months to fly that new toy .

Thymos Anima
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:35:00 - [4057]
 

While I feel mixed about this, new player, I can see why the old veterans of EvE are outraged, since they might have more than 1 accout. If a level 5 takes 1-2 months, puting that account on stand-by and still training was a great feature.

What I never understood as a new player is why I get to create 3 chars per account, but only one char at the time can train his skills? That is like having one char in a sense, not 3. Pay to train your skills sounds reasonable, but limiting the skill train to just one char is like saying "Go buy a new account if you want an alt".

I was a bit surprised to see my second char on the same account saying "Your other char is training XXX skill, do you really want to continue?" lol.

So I guess if you limit the training skill to only subscribed accounts then, at least, let me train an alt at the same time on my 1 account.


Hul'ka
Minmatar
tr0pa de elite
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:36:00 - [4058]
 

Originally by: Clansworth
Originally by: Xhanti
Originally by: Clansworth
Even after the change, I still feel that EVE has the best skill system of any MMO out there, simply because you don't have to Grind for XP. You can spend your playing time actually PLAYING the game, and not worry about focusing on bettering your character. This change is not affecting that at all.


"bettering" your character IS the game, else go to a chat room and play D&D.


I guess you and I are playing a completely different game. I enjoy actually flying the ship. I enjoy combat. I enjoy the logistical challenge of running an industrial process. THIS is what I enjoy about EvE. If all you wanted to do was 'level up', why don't you go play any of the other MMORPG's out there that FOCUS on that?


EVE is not about leveling, but it's essential to learne skills to be able to do new stuff, fly new ships, etc. When i pay for this game i pay to build, to invent, to fly, to shoot...
Me, and few of my friends was using ghost training for few reasons. Either we wanted a brake from the game, or we had some RL issues, or whatever. So, we let our accounts expire while we ware doing what needed to be donne. And I can tell ya, we ware motivated to come back when those skills complete.

But, recent activities (nano nerf and total lack of dev reponce to hundreds and hundreds of player posts) and now this greedy move makes an emo out of me and i'm not willing to pay for a game that is run by that kind of people with that kind of attitude. Still have month and a half until subsscription expires for 2 of my active accounts and that will be it.

I really hope all of this will be sorted out, fixed, hope some people will get fired for doing a bad job and hope I'll see most of you once again in space.

BIind
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:42:00 - [4059]
 

Edited by: BIind on 16/10/2008 16:45:24
I just love how this ~140 page monstrosity disappeared due to "I'm sorry we accidentally the whole thread" under a pile of announcements for medals and vague hints at the next expansion. I'm really curious when and if they'll eventually get around to fixing it or god forbid replying to it.

Demitria Fernir
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:45:00 - [4060]
 

Edited by: Demitria Fernir on 16/10/2008 16:45:22
it's ~140 pages. i think it's getting near of what nanonerf was when it was announced.

EDIT: CCP DIDN'T WANT MY TILDE ANYWAY

Tae'Lin Hynd
Wutzit
Posted - 2008.10.16 16:51:00 - [4061]
 

Originally by: Demitria Fernir
Edited by: Demitria Fernir on 16/10/2008 16:45:22
it's ~140 pages. i think it's getting near of what nanonerf was when it was announced.

EDIT: CCP DIDN'T WANT MY TILDE ANYWAY


Don't forget the other MAIN threads on this announcement that were locked. add those pages in too.

That is why they hid this steamroller, and just letting it roll on into the dusty DB. Supprised it didn't just vanish with the upgrade.

Kheldon Fel
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:01:00 - [4062]
 

Originally by: Grimnir
Originally by: Don Shadow

Show me ANY mmo where you need at least 1(ONE)YEAR of training to be able to use a ****ing armor or sword!


Show my ANY mmo where you can use the biggest and best armor or swords without having to either pay for your account or spend any time at it.


This is a stupid argument. Go google "free mmo"

BravoFox
Bravo Corp
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:08:00 - [4063]
 

Edited by: BravoFox on 16/10/2008 17:10:19

I posted a thread for this in the Game Development Forum because I felt that Skill Training is in fact part of the "Game". Anyway, it was locked of course and now we are all forced to post into this thread with 136+ pages and growing where there is a snowball's chance in hell that the Dev's will actually read it and take it seriously. In a fit of laziness... Copy/Paste

Originally by: BravoFox
Let me start by saying that I am an active Eve player for 3+ years now. I have held 2 paid accounts for the duration of that time. Never once have I let an account lapse and utilized the method of "Ghost Training". I have known others to use the feature because they were either going away for awhile (real life), they were growing tired of Eve but planned to return, or they're real life financial situation was to harsh to justify the monthly subscription fee. I still don't see any fault behind their actions and although I never used the feature, I was never opposed to it.

With that said and this new server patch implemented to essentially ban it, I can't help but see exactly what was stated in Torgi's Dev Blog, "CCP is a greedy money chewing monster". There are literally thousands of computer games out there that you buy once and you have the right to play that game for all eternity, Eve-Online is NOT one of those games. Eve is Pay-To-Play, if you want to play the game, you pay the subscription fee. The price you've paid to play continues to grow and you never reach a point where you've been a subscriber for X amount of time or you've paid a total X amount of dollars so CCP says... "Ok, you've been with us long enough. Your account is now paid for." To date, I've paid CCP a total of $1,124.90(US) to play this game and god damn it, if I want to take a month off to train for something I can't even afford in-game, I think they owe me that right. What's basically being said here is that if someone wants to train a skill, they have to pay CCP, even if they don't actually log into the game and play for 30 seconds the entire month. How can I not see you as being a Greedy Money Chewing Monster?

Ok... so you've eliminated "Ghost Training" making it only possible to train a skill if you're character resides on an Active-Cold-Hard-Cash-Forking-Over-Account. If you're not looking for ways to suck every last penny you can out of your subscribers, IMPLEMENT A SKILL QUEUE. Quite honestly, I'm paying YOU MY CASH. I'm your customer. We, the player base, YOUR CUSTOMERS, want you to implement a Skills Queue so we can train skills without throwing away our hard earned $$$ that we are paying to YOU. When our characters finish training skills and we aren't around or too busy to log into your server to start a new skill, we are wasting money. We're not playing the game and we're not training skills offline (which you are charging us for now) so we're basically just giving you cash because we like you. Sorry, I am a nice guy, but this isn't the case. I need every penny I earn just as most of the other players of Eve probably do.

If you want to make a show of good faith and prove to your customer base that you are not out to just suck them for everything you can, implement a Skill Training Queue. If you do this, neither of us will be leeching off of the other, you'll get paid subscriptions for accounts that are training, and we'll have characters that are constantly training and not wasting unrecoverable time. A fair compromise.


Here's what it boils down to, I don't give two ****s about deleting the possibility of Ghost Training. What I do care about is that you have now made it offical that it does in fact, cost $$$ to train a character. So if I'm paying you my hard earned $$$, I want my toon training for the duration of the subscription. Implement a Skills Queue. Your 100% LOYAL CUSTOMER BASE is asking for it. It's not like you're going to **** someone off by implementing it. With Ghost Training gone, in-active accounts won't be able to abuse.

Redback911
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:15:00 - [4064]
 

Well done CCP.

Crybabies, learn to pay your way.

Lana Ground
Caldari
Galactic Accord State Navy Academy
Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:17:00 - [4065]
 

Edited by: Lana Ground on 16/10/2008 17:17:34
urgh wow LOTS of pages 49 on the other thread that was killed + the 136 (at the time im typing this up) + anyother threads that i cant see :/ CCP get ze idea??Rolling EyesQuestion

Blade Stalker
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:21:00 - [4066]
 

Edited by: Blade Stalker on 16/10/2008 17:23:43
After 5 years of playing this game this one single desperate move to make more money, may be the one thing that makes me leave the game forever.

People rely on taking time outs and coming back (especially people who own like 3-6+ accounts) Its expensive to pay for all those accounts non stop when you go through real life non game playing downtime. The thing is...people DO reactivate those accounts and play them.. this decision may make them no reactivate ever again.

Your fiscal earnings this Quarter may be hurting which is why you did this... but your annual fiscal earnings will be considerably less from this points forward if you don't retract this move. MARK MY WORDS.. I KNOW BUSINESS... 130+ Pages of unhappy customers... bad mistake! Also, this isn't some small in game nerf that effects a limited number of pilots.. it effects everyone in the game so you should heed your customers words.

Tobin Shalim
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:23:00 - [4067]
 

CCP, do you really expect us to believe that this is anything more than just the simple fact that corporate greed is getting to you and you've decided to milk your customers for as much money as they're willing to give? You do know that this will alienate a lot of your more casual customers, of whose revenue you're depending on to grow since us hardcore Eve'ers just aren't going to cut it, right? We know that this is nothing more than a bs move to greedily gain money, so don't insult us by claiming that it's a "bug" fix when you've been advertising it as a "feature" for 5 years now. If it was such a serious problem, it would have been fixed years ago, and NOT advertised as being a "feature".

Furthermore, how can it be a strain on your DB? It's a simple countdown timer which wouldn't even be a strain if the DB was properly done in the first place; it's no different than an active account training if it's not logged in for a month, so don't try to get us to believe that it's a DB strain now. And if your DB can't handle characters that don't login for months at a time (active accounts) and do nothing, then you seriously need to rewrite your DB to handle that. Or just quit lying to us about your greedy reasons and just say it's because you want more money, at least that would be the truth.

10of10
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:26:00 - [4068]
 

Edited by: 10of10 on 16/10/2008 17:30:17
No way CCP can back down now. If they did people would be out of work... the people that implemented this decision. They are going to fight to keep this change alive. The bean counters have already crunched the numbers and convinced them that you are so addicted that you can't quit. Embarassed

Asith
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:30:00 - [4069]
 

Prehap we cant quit MMOs but we can always move to a new one

/me points in the directions of Jumpgate Evo

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:41:00 - [4070]
 

Edited by: Taram Caldar on 16/10/2008 17:43:16
I find it absolutely stunning that a feature that was lauded by CCP as 'one of the FEATURES that keeps vets coming back to the game, even after they initially cancel' is being removed now.

So... instead of keeping SOME revenue coming into the game from alt accounts in training (after all you have to periodically activate the account in order to train it up) they are just going to dissenfranchise those making legitimate alts using this method? Seriously... this was always lauded as one of the FEATURES of EVE... even by Devs.... I find it odd that it's suddenly a 'bug' for some reason.

Doesn't really matter to me other than as an academic observation. Just find it really odd. Guess I'll just leave my alt account cancelled. Probably transfer my carrier pilot over to my main account and then just forget that account exists. So much for the 'power of two'.

It will be interesting to see how this affects the subscription numbers reports that CCP has been so proud of.

10of10
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:45:00 - [4071]
 

Bob needs less lag now and as we all know Bob gets what Bob wants. Seems alliances know how to manage lag better and it's no longer usefull to them. They are saying this will cut down on lag right...ShockedShocked

Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:45:00 - [4072]
 

Originally by: Asith
Prehap we cant quit MMOs but we can always move to a new one

/me points in the directions of Jumpgate Evo


^^ This is a very real possibility TBFH.... depends how the game play is.

Can't wait to get in beta.

Pur3Bl00D
Minmatar
southeast investments corp
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:47:00 - [4073]
 


So it seems they blatantly say to us:

"we know most players in this game have an alt which they purposefully created to train in "ghost" mode from time to time and we want to make some extra cash from that"

Since *our* senior developer is putting it this way let me put it my way:

1. One of the reasons i started this game was exactly that, *ghost training*. In all fairness i am not sure if it was actively advertised anywhere but certainly never ever got the impression that it is a *bug*. I work for a living and even the 20 euro's per month does have a corresponding value. Additionally i want to take a break from eve from time to time, and its good to know that i still progress in the game.

2. Another reason was the GTC for ISK option, in my view it is a very good option, not the *purest* approach to tackle isk sellers, but a practical approach to real needs of players. And even though i never took advantage of this option its good to know that i may be able to either buy IRL time and vice versa.

3. i don't have a second account but with view of this "fix" on this bug. I will not get one. PERIOD. It is too much for me to pay, many ppl will thing like that for sure.






Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:50:00 - [4074]
 

Edited by: Taram Caldar on 16/10/2008 17:51:06
Quote:
We can look at this from a variety of angles, but it all comes down to:

1. There was a way to progress a character in EVE without an active subscription That we advertised as a FEATURE for the past 5 years
2. CCP noticed a surge in the trend and decided to fix the leak So that we can milk our players for more money
3. Players now have to pay a subscription for characters to have them progress

We truly hope that the community will understand our actions and continue to enjoy playing EVE as much as we enjoy making it. Because it would suck if they realised this is just a naked money grab and cancelled all their alt accounts as a result.

Torfi Frans Olafsson
Senior Producer of EVE Online



Fixed it for you Torfi.

PS: My alt acct.... for 1... will now remain permanently cancelled.

Ikathis sihtaki
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:50:00 - [4075]
 

So my other account just lapsed, not matching up with my deposit date..hmm, that two week skill I had going won't be on when I get paid next week, and i will have to wait for myself to be active. A time i would otherwise been in game, that because of BAD TIMING I now have to suffer for it.

THANKS


Aganola
Amarr
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:55:00 - [4076]
 

I know my post will drown in the topic nonetheless I feel compelled to say this:

Help me calculate a 1 year subscription for an alt:

1: pre GTC nerf:
8 x 1 month GTC + 8 x 14 days ghost training
8 x 15$ = 120$

2: post GTC nert (pre ghost nerf):
4 x 2 month GTC + 4 x 14 days ghost training
4 x 35$ = 140$

3: post ghost nerf:
6 x 2 month GTC
6 x 35$ = 210$

And this DOES NOT EVEN INCLUDE THE PAYMENT (+210$!!) FOR THE REAL CHARACTER!!!!

So basicly the cost of maintaining an alt doubled over the course of ONE year!

Lot of people cannot keep up with this (myself included)...

So this is the whine about... not just the screw over... :P

Thank you

Pur3Bl00D
Minmatar
southeast investments corp
Posted - 2008.10.16 17:59:00 - [4077]
 

Now on purely economic terms:

1. CCP will lose a marketing tool, the phrase:
250.000 account will become
100.000....

2. During a financial crisis CCP instead of trying to retain its market share does
exactly the opposite. Do you really expect ppl with all those alts that they purely
started to fit a specific purpose, one that surely requires many long-time skills
to keep paying while having the character parked on a station of a region they don't
even remember the name of?

3. I will, personally at least, accept an increase in fees, a hard limit of e.x. 30 days
maximum "ghost training", but this abrupt halt of ghost will certainly pull players
away from you and make it harder to pull new ones. Gamers know other gamers and we
do discuss these things you know.

4. Content is not the only thing that will pull an MMO player. Support and other
services do the job too. And this "unique" feature of ghost training is just an added
"competitive advantage". you should treat it like that and certainly not as a bug.





Tae'Lin Hynd
Wutzit
Posted - 2008.10.16 18:00:00 - [4078]
 

Edited by: Tae''Lin Hynd on 16/10/2008 18:01:00
Originally by: Aganola
I know my post will drown in the topic nonetheless I feel compelled to say this:

Help me calculate a 1 year subscription for an alt:

1: pre GTC nerf:
8 x 1 month GTC + 8 x 14 days ghost training
8 x 15$ = 120$

2: post GTC nert (pre ghost nerf):
4 x 2 month GTC + 4 x 14 days ghost training
4 x 35$ = 140$

3: post ghost nerf:
6 x 2 month GTC
6 x 35$ = 210$

And this DOES NOT EVEN INCLUDE THE PAYMENT (+210$!!) FOR THE REAL CHARACTER!!!!

So basicly the cost of maintaining an alt doubled over the course of ONE year!

Lot of people cannot keep up with this (myself included)...

So this is the whine about... not just the screw over... :P

Thank you


so like 6 bil isk costs 210 bucks?

Next math you need to figure out, is how much a character costs per skill point in real world value Very Happy

Aganola
Amarr
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.10.16 18:08:00 - [4079]
 

Edited by: Aganola on 16/10/2008 18:08:36
Originally by: Tae'Lin Hynd
Edited by: Tae''Lin Hynd on 16/10/2008 18:01:00
Originally by: Aganola
I know my post will drown in the topic nonetheless I feel compelled to say this:

Help me calculate a 1 year subscription for an alt:

1: pre GTC nerf:
8 x 1 month GTC + 8 x 14 days ghost training
8 x 15$ = 120$

2: post GTC nert (pre ghost nerf):
4 x 2 month GTC + 4 x 14 days ghost training
4 x 35$ = 140$

3: post ghost nerf:
6 x 2 month GTC
6 x 35$ = 210$

And this DOES NOT EVEN INCLUDE THE PAYMENT (+210$!!) FOR THE REAL CHARACTER!!!!

So basicly the cost of maintaining an alt doubled over the course of ONE year!

Lot of people cannot keep up with this (myself included)...

So this is the whine about... not just the screw over... :P

Thank you


so like 6 bil isk costs 210 bucks?

Next math you need to figure out, is how much a character costs per skill point in real world value Very Happy
Learn to write next time... I can't see if you are positive or negative to my post! Confused

This is the real world price of the gtc as you can see here: http://www.shatteredcrystal.com/code.php/eve_online


Tae'Lin Hynd
Wutzit
Posted - 2008.10.16 18:12:00 - [4080]
 

Originally by: Aganola
Edited by: Aganola on 16/10/2008 18:08:36
Originally by: Tae'Lin Hynd
Edited by: Tae''Lin Hynd on 16/10/2008 18:01:00
Originally by: Aganola
I know my post will drown in the topic nonetheless I feel compelled to say this:

Help me calculate a 1 year subscription for an alt:

1: pre GTC nerf:
8 x 1 month GTC + 8 x 14 days ghost training
8 x 15$ = 120$

2: post GTC nert (pre ghost nerf):
4 x 2 month GTC + 4 x 14 days ghost training
4 x 35$ = 140$

3: post ghost nerf:
6 x 2 month GTC
6 x 35$ = 210$

And this DOES NOT EVEN INCLUDE THE PAYMENT (+210$!!) FOR THE REAL CHARACTER!!!!

So basicly the cost of maintaining an alt doubled over the course of ONE year!

Lot of people cannot keep up with this (myself included)...

So this is the whine about... not just the screw over... :P

Thank you


so like 6 bil isk costs 210 bucks?

Next math you need to figure out, is how much a character costs per skill point in real world value Very Happy
Learn to write next time... I can't see if you are positive or negative to my post! Confused

This is the real world price of the gtc as you can see here: http://www.shatteredcrystal.com/code.php/eve_online




EH, I have heard that the value of the GTC was up to 900mil, don't usually visit that forum, maybe i will swing in and look, otherwise 210 bucks will get you 3b (assuming them to be around 500mil isk)

anyone see anything wrong with the realworld wallet buffing the ingame wallet?


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