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blankseplocked [ Vote]Saying ' No' to the end of so called 'Ghost Training'
 
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Khwalik
Ghetto Kings
Posted - 2008.10.13 17:39:00 - [1]
 

I do not see how the ability to train skill during account inactivity is a so called advantage. I strongly incourage a rethinking of this idea.

Leto Becken
Blue Cloud Industries
Posted - 2008.10.13 18:15:00 - [2]
 

It's not advantageous to train a 30+ day skill without having to pay for the game?

Skill training is part of the game. To play the game, you pay. To train skills, you pay.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.13 18:17:00 - [3]
 

Good change, pay if you want to train your skills. Use your alt in a blackbird till you got him trained up for falcon Wink


Orion Moonstar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.13 18:30:00 - [4]
 

**** ccp, if they take this feature out I'm not playing this game anymore

Leto Becken
Blue Cloud Industries
Posted - 2008.10.13 18:32:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Orion Moonstar
**** ccp, if they take this feature out I'm not playing this game anymore


Thank you CCP.

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.10.13 19:03:00 - [6]
 

Removing ghost training is a good thing.

People pay to play, why should people be rewarded for not paying? It makes no sense.

The change is good in my opinion.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.10.13 19:03:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 14/10/2008 12:11:23
Edited by: Malcanis on 13/10/2008 19:06:38
Edited by: Malcanis on 13/10/2008 19:04:10
This change will lose CCP some of my money. Ghost training isn't something I and most others do instead of playing, it's something we did as well as playing.

The exception is people who HAVE to be away from EvE for a while. That consoling phrase "Oh well... at least you can set a long skill mate" will no longer be there to encourage them to return.

They can have my cash for 2 accounts or the can have my cash for 2 accounts + 2 ghost training accounts = about 50% more. Their choice, really.

EDIT: as for the mythical and never proven "character farming" - what the eff? They just spent a year giving ISK farmers every possible buff and protection, now we're supposed to think they care so much about character farming?

Praxis1452
The Illuminatii
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2008.10.13 19:17:00 - [8]
 

just because it's refreshing to come back into the game with a nice new skill when you've taken a break for a couple months.

Damien Cerverus
Deep Core Mining Inc.

Posted - 2008.10.13 19:22:00 - [9]
 

its ok ccp, make sure that people who quit the game stay quit :)

Triest
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.13 19:33:00 - [10]
 

I'm sure they'll get right on reversing the changes due to this thread.

Praxis1452
The Illuminatii
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2008.10.13 20:44:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Triest
I'm sure they'll get right on reversing the changes due to this thread.
Well.. just for the record. for the good it does.Rolling Eyes

Etien Aldragoran
Legitimate Corporation

Posted - 2008.10.13 20:45:00 - [12]
 

I will no renew my subscription to my third account if this goes through.

Qeng Nuwen
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.13 20:46:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Triest
I'm sure they'll get right on reversing the changes due to this thread.

But but but, the CSM isnt just a powerless circlejerk right? RIGHT!?!?!

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.10.13 21:30:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Drake Draconis on 13/10/2008 21:30:25
I can clearly see why its a serious advantage of training up your char while not paying for your account.


Heck I'd call it an exploit.

CCP loses money over such things.... because your ganking them out of there hard earned money in supporting this game.

That's like saying I'll train _____ level V which takes over 30 days and not pay for one month of EVE online.

And then come back and reactivate the account and start paying for it but they dont get the one month back.

That's cheating the system.

Convenient or not.... I support CCP in there decision.
If your not going to pay for your account... there should be a count down timer then everything on your account should just flat freeze. (Glorified pause button)

When re-activated the account should pick up where it left off.

As for the timer? 48 hours or something... not too long to make it abuse-able... but long enough for someone to figure out where to get the cash to pay for it again.

Sorry folks... but putting a stop to an exploitable feature is something I want to see.
People who pay for this game pay to play it and train there char's on it.
If your not going to play the game just to train up your char... you shouldn't be able to train up your char by NOT playing the game for extended periods of time.

/me emphatic thumbs down

Cosy Ceaon
Posted - 2008.10.13 22:13:00 - [15]
 

4 days left until account canceled
still left 33 days skill training

SysFin
Amarr
Posted - 2008.10.13 22:37:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
as for the mythical and never proven "character farming" - what the eff? They just spent a year giving ISK farmers every possible buff and protection, now we're supposed to think they care so much about character farming?


Originally by: Praxis1452
just because it's refreshing to come back into the game with a nice new skill when you've taken a break for a couple months.


Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.10.13 23:03:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Cosy Ceaon
4 days left until account canceled
still left 4 days skill training

Corrected that for you.

I see nothing wrong with this change. Why should people who aren't playing the game benefit equally to those who actually pay to play? Makes sense that if an account goes inactive, training should too.

rycar
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:07:00 - [18]
 

/support

seriously, wtf CCP

Moustache McGee
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:21:00 - [19]
 

Ok Imma sum up all the reasons why ending "Ghost Training" is dumb right here so people can refer to them all in one big tl;dr:

1. It has been referred to as a feature of the game.

See any of the twenty posts in the first pages of the Dev Blog discussion thread for a link to the Player Guide. Obviously, in addition to being a contributing factor to people subscribing to the game (the cancellation of which will obviously result in canceled accounts and possible loss of future customers), this also spells out that CCP is being intentionally deceitful as to their reasons for terminating "Ghost Training."

2. Because a player works in Eve to make money, not to gain skill points, there is no undue advantage provided to inactive accounts.

In Eve, skill points are acquired by clicking a button, then coming back in a few days to click another button and train a different skill. There is no hard work involved. Instead, work in Eve is used to acquire ISK, which can even be used to bypass the timesink that is skill training by purchasing more advanced characters. A good metaphor is that of two players, Todd and Frank. Todd lets his account lapse training Carrier V, while Frank keeps it subscribed while training the same skill. However, over the course of a month, Frank works hard to earn Isk. At the end of the month, both characters can fly a carrier, but Frank, having worked hard and paid his subscription, actually has the carrier.

3. CCP gains more money from the subscriptions of multiple sporadically subscribed "Ghost Training" accounts than a single perpetually subscribed account.

This one is simple math: let's return to Todd and Frank. Todd runs two accounts over a year, both of which are lapsed and "Ghost Training" for three months out of the year, while Frank runs a single account subscribed for the entire year. Assuming they both pay in one month intervals of 14.99 per month:

Todd's Accounts: 179.40 * 0.75 * 2 = 269.10
Frank's Account: 179.40 * 1.00 * 1 = 179.40

Therefore, in addition to not being played for three months out of the year (thus reducing strain on CCP's servers, however little), Todd's two "Ghost Training" accounts bring in more money than Frank's single perma-subscribed account.

There are other reasons, but most of them are on a case-by-case basis, and I figure three massively glaring flaws should be enough to warrant a change of plans.

Further TL;DR:

Preventing "Ghost Training" is bad for CCP. Many accounts are cancelled and some accounts are never created at all, resulting in less money.

Preventing "Ghost Training" is bad for players. The true advantage in "Ghost Training" is given to permanently subscribed players, who are constantly earning Isk and making more money than "Ghost Training" players, while gaining skill points at the same rate.

Moustache McGee
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:33:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Moustache McGee on 14/10/2008 00:33:14
Originally by: Becq Starforged
Originally by: Cosy Ceaon
4 days left until account canceled
still left 4 days skill training

Corrected that for you.

I see nothing wrong with this change. Why should people who aren't playing the game benefit equally to those who actually pay to play? Makes sense that if an account goes inactive, training should too.



And a quick counterpoint: people who pay to play the game have one massive, distinct benefit over someone who isn't paying: They get to play the game. I pay to play Spaceships Online, not ProgressBar Online. It's not as equal as one would think.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:35:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Leto Becken

Skill training is part of the game. To play the game, you pay. To train skills, you pay.


This.

Also, I read the player guide as this is the how the game works, NOT "This is how it is intended" or "This is not a bug".

CCP has ALWAYS reserved the right to change anything about their game.

For example: I will use POS bowling, as it was ok then declared illegal. If POS bowling was in a player guide, it wouldn't mean that POS bowling was intended, but merely that is how people played the game and that is was doable and a normal tactic. When POS bowling was declared illegal, said hypothetical POS bowling player guide entry would be amended or deleted. Seems like a normal thing to do.

Once again, you are twisting a simple factual statement in the player guide and making assumptions on it. It is simply stating what is possible, not what is supposed to be.

Moustache McGee
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:40:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Moustache McGee on 14/10/2008 00:47:12
Edited by: Moustache McGee on 14/10/2008 00:42:58
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Leto Becken

Skill training is part of the game. To play the game, you pay. To train skills, you pay.


This.

Also, I read the player guide as this is the how the game works, NOT "This is how it is intended" or "This is not a bug".

CCP has ALWAYS reserved the right to change anything about their game.

For example: I will use POS bowling, as it was ok then declared illegal. If POS bowling was in a player guide, it wouldn't mean that POS bowling was intended, but merely that is how people played the game and that is was doable and a normal tactic. When POS bowling was declared illegal, said hypothetical POS bowling player guide entry would be amended or deleted. Seems like a normal thing to do.

Once again, you are twisting a simple factual statement in the player guide and making assumptions on it. It is simply stating what is possible, not what is supposed to be.


I'd say it's a pretty reasonable assumption that, when CCP lists information in a Player Guide, it's done so so that players can then use it. As it stands, CCP is suggesting that "Ghost Training" was always an unintended bug - essentially, an exploit, in the same vein as POS Bowling. However, unlike "Ghost Training," POS Bowling has never been used to sell accounts, nor has it been specifically cited in a Player Guide.

Which is the bigger leap: that information is there with the intention of being used and cataloged as a feature, or that a known exploit would be listed for years?

Edit: Looking back on my post I see it's a lot of circular-reasoning words based on the fact that Vaal's assumption is completely unfounded, here let me sum it up better:

"No guys we're just writing all about it here so you know what it is no we don't want you actually to use it NO STOP WHAT HAVE YOU DONE *ignores it for a few years*"

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:43:00 - [23]
 

This was a change that needed to be made, and I say that as someone who exploited the hell out of the old system(Gallente Cruiser V, Drone Interfacing V, Gallente Battleship V, and Advanced Weapon Upgrades V were all trained by me while unpaid). It was a system I used to good effect, but that doesn't change that it was a bad system.

The one thing I look forward to especially is that this removes one(dumb, but still frequently used) argument against skill queues. No, skill queues will not allow a player to come back to a maxed-out dreadnought pilot after a one-month subscription and three years of waiting.

Moustache McGee
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:45:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Moustache McGee on 14/10/2008 00:45:41
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

The one thing I look forward to especially is that this removes one(dumb, but still frequently used) argument against skill queues. No, skill queues will not allow a player to come back to a maxed-out dreadnought pilot after a one-month subscription and three years of waiting.


The thing is that the only reason skill queues may be added after the removal of Ghost Training is to appease an angry player base, not because removing Ghost Training was a prerequisite of establishing a queue (hint: clear the queue when an account is canceled, problem solved). If an argument is dumb, CCP shouldn't even think about using it as justification.

Vladina Krematoria
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:45:00 - [25]
 

when you can sell a character for billions of isk that you have been training forever without having to pay is well broken. i do understand that for those people who simply cant pay for whhatever reason..well it could be worse..you could altogether lose that character..it would be within ccp's rights to do so..The fact that ccp has allowed this for 5 years and almost promoted it as a desirable feature is the real problem here.

Biscuit0
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:50:00 - [26]
 

I don't want to see this go and I approve of Moustache McGee's message.

Sarin Adler
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:52:00 - [27]
 

This change is useless and unnecessary.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.14 00:53:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Moustache McGee
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
The one thing I look forward to especially is that this removes one(dumb, but still frequently used) argument against skill queues. No, skill queues will not allow a player to come back to a maxed-out dreadnought pilot after a one-month subscription and three years of waiting.


The thing is that the only reason skill queues may be added after the removal of Ghost Training is to appease an angry player base, not because removing Ghost Training was a prerequisite of establishing a queue (hint: clear the queue when an account is canceled, problem solved). If an argument is dumb, CCP shouldn't even think about using it as justification.


I didn't claim CCP used the argument. I don't recall them ever doing so. Fools on the forums used that argument. It doesn't make a huge difference that they can't, but it's nice to see it go away nonetheless.

And I'd like to see queues be implemented on the grounds that they should have been there since beta, but I'll take what I can get.

Moustache McGee
Posted - 2008.10.14 01:04:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Moustache McGee on 14/10/2008 01:04:37
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Moustache McGee
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
The one thing I look forward to especially is that this removes one(dumb, but still frequently used) argument against skill queues. No, skill queues will not allow a player to come back to a maxed-out dreadnought pilot after a one-month subscription and three years of waiting.


The thing is that the only reason skill queues may be added after the removal of Ghost Training is to appease an angry player base, not because removing Ghost Training was a prerequisite of establishing a queue (hint: clear the queue when an account is canceled, problem solved). If an argument is dumb, CCP shouldn't even think about using it as justification.


I didn't claim CCP used the argument. I don't recall them ever doing so. Fools on the forums used that argument. It doesn't make a huge difference that they can't, but it's nice to see it go away nonetheless.

And I'd like to see queues be implemented on the grounds that they should have been there since beta, but I'll take what I can get.


To quote Wrangler in the stickied CSM meeting thread:

Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Noah (CCP) indicated CCP’s awareness of the player frustrations with the ~6 hour duration skill trainings. However, CCP strongly believes that switching skill training is an activity that encourages players to log into the game and play. A skill queue would be a possible solution, if there would be limitations, such as a limited amount of skills being trained, or that only skills of a total up to a certain duration can be stacked into the queue.


So I don't think you're gonna be getting that queue any time soon regardless, seeing as how you logging in and working hard to get those skills switched is one of the reasons subscribers are supposed to have an advantage over Ghost Trainers. If CCP's been unable to find a good system for implementing a queue, Ghost Training's removal will have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Joss Sparq
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.

Posted - 2008.10.14 01:22:00 - [30]
 

After reading the blog and both related threads, I'm against the change.


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