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Fiona Appletart
Minmatar
Invisible Menace
Posted - 2008.10.09 16:46:00 - [1]
 

The issue of blackops being prenerfed has been covered before, but the issue of the gallente Sin should be addressed as well.

It's a drone boat which cloaks. When cloaking your drones (main, if not only form of DPS) die in space.

It would make more sense for the Blackops to be a Megathron frame, god knows a Blasterthron that gets a speed bonus while cloaked would make more sense then the current setup.

Even though the Widow's missiles also have a disadvantage, none are quite as gimped as the Gallente one.

Couple of things that could resolve this?


  • Replace it with the Mega frame - did this once with the covops ships...

  • Give the Sin a bonus to allow it to keep control of drones while cloaked, i.e. agressive Sentry drones

  • Boost the Drone hold to support a larger supply of drones for those lost on the field - explains the missing high slots

  • Remove the cloak/recloak delay i.e. bomber delays so the risk of picking up drones is slightly dropped



Thoughts or other ideas to improve the viability of this ship?

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2008.10.09 16:56:00 - [2]
 

Um..... when do you cloak in combat?

Fiona Appletart
Minmatar
Invisible Menace
Posted - 2008.10.09 16:58:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
Um..... when do you cloak in combat?


EW ships, hostiles warp out, etc etc.

A Sin has to wait for drones to return, every other cloaking ship can just cloak without losing all their weapons...

Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:46:00 - [4]
 

then you just cause another problem, you have the sin launching drones and then cloaking so no one can kill the source of the damage being dealt to them, which is also laughably unbalanced.

As for switching frames, then you'd have another cross the board issue with the rest of the blackops not to mention butting into marauder territory.

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:49:00 - [5]
 

So let me get this straight. You want to be able to put out your drones, tell them to attack, and then damp or ecm your target and recloak, all the while your drones continue to tear up your target?

You know that a stealth bomber's missiles in flight do no damage if the bomber warps or cloaks before they hit the target right?

Asno Malo
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:50:00 - [6]
 

Greetings,
Originally by: Fiona Appletart
A Sin has to wait for drones to return, every other cloaking ship can just cloak without losing all their weapons...

Huh??? Not even close;

Arazu's primary damage is drones, Lachesis' primary damage is drones, Rapier's primary damage is drones, Pilgrim's and Curse's only damage is drones, and all of these ships are Recon's.

Aramova
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:51:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Nnamuachs
then you just cause another problem, you have the sin launching drones and then cloaking so no one can kill the source of the damage being dealt to them, which is also laughably unbalanced.

Since you couldn't target while cloaked, they would only continue to attack and could be killed off themselves... Though I agree.. :)

Originally by: Nnamuachs
As for switching frames, then you'd have another cross the board issue with the rest of the blackops not to mention butting into marauder territory.
Not really, we're not talking about the equivlent to 8x Blasters or rails, it would be fine with 6x blaster setups, a cloak and jump portal gen... Not as powerful as a megathron alone, but not as gimped as a domi frame while still not nearly as strong as the marauder.


Verys
I Heart Chaos
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:51:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Verys on 09/10/2008 17:51:36
Currently the black ops is as useless as it comes, its a blown up stealth bomber with a jumpdrive but without the usefulness of being very small and getting around fast. Especially since most of them are just slightly gimped up versions of they're t1 hulls with a jumpdrive (which is totally useless on itself 4ly on jump cal 4 is not enough it should be more like 6-8). In my opinion to make the black ops actually worth flying they should be long range very versatile cloaking ships (snipers), although covert cloaking ability might be a bit over the top since it already has a jumpdrive.

So yes the droneboat should be a railgun boat and all the black ops ships should get a range bonus to they're sniping weapons (only widow has this right now with the cruise missile velocity bonus). Next to that they should get a bonus to warp speed to get around quickly.

This would all end up on the idea of a quickly moving stealthy sniper, with a bit of Ewar capabilities, being deployable in a system in quick timespan.

All in all the black ops needs a good overhaul it isnt worth its 600 mil+ pricetag atm.

Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:55:00 - [9]
 

As far as i'm concerned the purpose of the black ops isnt to be the stealthy sniper.. its to be the somewhat stealthy powerhouse backing up the recons that its intended to travel with.. the recons are for lockdown while the black ops is for the damage. While i agree that a majority of the black ops are gimped, i do fly a widow.. and it certainly can dish out a chunk of DPS, not to mention is overwhelming in a 1v1.

Lijhal
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:55:00 - [10]
 

hey, i love my little CNR carebear buster ...ergh ... i mean Widow !!!
Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy


Fiona Appletart
Minmatar
Invisible Menace
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:56:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Asno Malo
Arazu's primary damage is drones, Lachesis' primary damage is drones, Rapier's primary damage is drones, Pilgrim's and Curse's only damage is drones, and all of these ships are Recon's.



Lachesis' is drones? 3x heavy missiles, 2x medium rails. I think not.

It's rare that I've ever seen a Rapier launch drones, and the Arazu can fit 3 medium drones and a small...

Pilgrim can warp while cloaked so it has that advantage, and the curse's tank/nos bonus makes up for that fact, the Sin has no such bonus to make up for it's risk/reward.

The only two real drone boats in your list are the Amarr Recons, and they have nos/neut bonuses to complement them. The sin dosn't.


Fiona Appletart
Minmatar
Invisible Menace
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:58:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Nnamuachs
As far as i'm concerned the purpose of the black ops isnt to be the stealthy sniper.. its to be the somewhat stealthy powerhouse backing up the recons that its intended to travel with.. the recons are for lockdown while the black ops is for the damage. While i agree that a majority of the black ops are gimped, i do fly a widow.. and it certainly can dish out a chunk of DPS, not to mention is overwhelming in a 1v1.


No doubt, the Widow is an awesome ship. The Sin is the one that's been hurt the most...

Fiona Appletart
Minmatar
Invisible Menace
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:58:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Aramova
Not really, we're not talking about the equivlent to 8x Blasters or rails, it would be fine with 6x blaster setups, a cloak and jump portal gen... Not as powerful as a megathron alone, but not as gimped as a domi frame while still not nearly as strong as the marauder.




Exactly!

Asno Malo
Posted - 2008.10.09 19:12:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Fiona Appletart
Lachesis' is drones? 3x heavy missiles, 2x medium rails. I think not.

It's rare that I've ever seen a Rapier launch drones, and the Arazu can fit 3 medium drones and a small...

FAIL!!!!

Arazu can fit 4 mediums, which will far outdamage the 3 x 250mm rails.

Lachesis can fit 4 mediums, which will again out damage what ever 3 x and 2 x combo you do with the high slots, assuming you have near parity in skills that is.

Quote:
The only two real drone boats in your list are the Amarr Recons, and they have nos/neut bonuses to complement them. The sin dosn't.

And the Sin has large Hybrid bonuses to complement them.

I am not saying the Sin, and all Black Ops for that matter, doesn't need help, however, you stated 'every other cloaking ship can just cloak without losing all their weapons...'. And I am simply pointing out that you are wrong. I specifically chose recon ships, which like the Sin, are supposed to be covert and cloaked, but the fact is that EVERY ship with drones out lose them if they to cloak.

Manfred Rickenbocker
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:14:00 - [15]
 

Its the bonuses that the black ops get that are really silly. The widow is BY FAR the only one that gets a useful bonus: ECM. The sin gets an agility bonus? wtf? The domi hull is slow, granted, but even an agility bonus doesnt help it in combat. The Panther's bonus is speed (also 'meh', but might prove interesting after the speed nerf) and the Amarr one gets a ROF or tracking bonus (useless). ALL the ships need some form of EWar... if they are stealthy, they need to be able to disengage!

Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:43:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Manfred Rickenbocker
Its the bonuses that the black ops get that are really silly. The widow is BY FAR the only one that gets a useful bonus: ECM. The sin gets an agility bonus? wtf? The domi hull is slow, granted, but even an agility bonus doesnt help it in combat. The Panther's bonus is speed (also 'meh', but might prove interesting after the speed nerf) and the Amarr one gets a ROF or tracking bonus (useless). ALL the ships need some form of EWar... if they are stealthy, they need to be able to disengage!


The original problem is that Caldari is the only race with an E-War battleship, so its the only one that really has anything to go on from its tech 1 counterpart to balance it into its ewar.. as opposed to the other black ops basically having to be "brand new" in respects to what they are and not just variants.

CCP Atropos

Posted - 2008.10.10 01:10:00 - [17]
 

You can't just swap the hull to one that you prefer; all of them are based around the Tier I battleship hull (Typhoon > Panther, Armageddon > redeemer, Dominix > Sin, Scorpion > Widow)

But please, continue the discussion Smile

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2008.10.10 01:45:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 10/10/2008 01:48:08
I think the OP just want's to whine about not having a cloaking thron, but this discussion might be worth continuing.

I think the Scorp is the best BO ship because of it's E-war bonus. I kinda like the Panther speed bonus, but I'm not sure how useful it is. The agility bonus on the Sin lets it get into warp faster, or up to speed quicker with a mwd, but I'm thinkin damps would be better. Nos/Nuet bonus might be overpowered, but I'm thinkin a tracking disruption bonus might work with range scripts and a web. Maybe not after the nerf.

Not sure what to do with the Panther. Target painters are rather limited most of the time. Webs?

Rassad
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.10.10 03:19:00 - [19]
 

The bonus's are not the big problem with Blackops ships.

Its jumprange, and fuel are the big problems.
Also making covert cyno in Cyno jammed systems would make it sexy, yet not overpowered, becuase you cant do too much damage with a bunch of cloakers.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.10.10 03:27:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
You can't just swap the hull to one that you prefer; all of them are based around the Tier I battleship hull (Typhoon > Panther, Armageddon > redeemer, Dominix > Sin, Scorpion > Widow)

But please, continue the discussion Smile



Guess what this means: it's time to scrap the now-obsolete tier system. You wouldn't have this problem if you just balanced all ships in a class evenly.



Oh, and the Widow is arguably the WORST black ops, once the fuel issue is fixed. Why? Because you can jump Falcons, a ship that does everything the Widow does and does it much, much better. On the other hand, what a recon gang needs is dps, and the Widow simply sucks for that.

Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.10 05:39:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: CCP Atropos
You can't just swap the hull to one that you prefer; all of them are based around the Tier I battleship hull (Typhoon > Panther, Armageddon > redeemer, Dominix > Sin, Scorpion > Widow)

But please, continue the discussion Smile



Guess what this means: it's time to scrap the now-obsolete tier system. You wouldn't have this problem if you just balanced all ships in a class evenly.





Oh, and the Widow is arguably the WORST black ops, once the fuel issue is fixed. Why? Because you can jump Falcons, a ship that does everything the Widow does and does it much, much better. On the other hand, what a recon gang needs is dps, and the Widow simply sucks for that.


yes yes.. lets make all the ships the same so that theres no such thing as ship type advantages, while we're at it.. lets just make one ship and make everyone use it.. that way no one is under/overpowered compared with anyone else... um no.. i personally dont consider the tier system outdated. It provides a level of flexibility with ship types, abilities and affordability.

700+ dps on a widow isnt all that bad when using no ballistic controls whatsoever.. i will admit that the redeemer at a little over 760, panther 730,and the sin at 800... all without the damage modifiers for the weapons (does include drones).. not to mention in a fight the "gimped tank" of the black ops doesnt effect the widow since ECM should be its primary tank anyways as opposed to the rest of them that lose base shield/armor/hull, so of course i'd have to disagree with you on the widow being the worst of them since they all class around the same level damage wise.

Strill
Posted - 2008.10.10 06:06:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Strill on 10/10/2008 06:44:36
What I wanna know is what the purpose of black ops is supposed to be. What kind of vulnerable, valuable targets are there in jump range of a black ops that the black ops would be worth risking to take out?

Originally by: CCP Atropos
You can't just swap the hull to one that you prefer; all of them are based around the Tier I battleship hull (Typhoon > Panther, Armageddon > redeemer, Dominix > Sin, Scorpion > Widow)

But please, continue the discussion Smile

Furthermore, how do those hulls fit the role of Black Ops? All the tier 1 battleships favor drones more than their higher tier counterparts, which as mentioned by the OP is a poor choice for stealth attacks. Black ops should be focused on long-range hit-and-run tactics.

With the current layout of cov-ops type ships, long range damage is favored. ECM ships have long range and no tank, so they prefer to stay at range. Other EWAR might as well be useless, but I'll mention it anyway. Sensor Dampener ships are only useful at long range since it's the only way they can prevent target locks. Target painter ships are built with the big falloff on minmatar guns in mind, and thus are there to allow minmatar ships to shoot from farther away. Tracking disruptors can be useful at long or short range, but you can only really outrun the tracking of one enemy at a time, so long range is more favorable. Then we come to Stealth bombers, which are obviously geared towards long range.

So the conclusion is that every single cov-ops type combat ship is focused on long range combat. That's convenient since it gives you ample opportunity to run away if things don't go your way. But shouldn't Black Ops ships go along with this trend as well? The dominix is obviously a blaster ship, which is a terrible setup to base a black ops on. With blasters, you have no way to escape if reinforcements arrive before you finish your attack since you're immediately in scrambler range. It also clashes with the long-range tendencies of all the other cov-ops ships. It's focus on drones means you have to wait to recall your drones before you can escape, which is bad for a ship that wants to be sneaky and quick.

Then you have the fact that the whole philosophy of blasters clashes with Cov Ops. Blasters are based around getting to the target as quick as possible so you can out-damage them. If you don't get there quick enough, you die. If you do get there quick enough, they die. Designing a fragile expensive ship around a hull that's built for a reckless all-or-nothing attack style just doesn't work.

What people want are designs that have meaningful and synergistic bonuses and focus the original role of the ship to something specific. They don't want ships with completely different roles that clash with their original ones.

Strill
Posted - 2008.10.10 06:52:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Strill on 10/10/2008 06:53:05
Originally by: Nnamuachs
yes yes.. lets make all the ships the same so that theres no such thing as ship type advantages, while we're at it.. lets just make one ship and make everyone use it.. that way no one is under/overpowered compared with anyone else... um no.. i personally dont consider the tier system outdated. It provides a level of flexibility with ship types, abilities and affordability.

With insurance there's really no difference in cost. The lower tier battleships make up what damage they lose from guns in their drone damage, and the base hp differences between a tier 1 and tier 3 ship very rarely make a very big difference in the final ehp values after you fit a tank.

They're all pretty much the same. There really isn't any point in binding yourself to using the tier system.

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2008.10.10 07:42:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
You can't just swap the hull to one that you prefer; all of them are based around the Tier I battleship hull (Typhoon > Panther, Armageddon > redeemer, Dominix > Sin, Scorpion > Widow)

But please, continue the discussion Smile

That does make me wonder why the Panther has the Tempest bonuses then Wink. If it was based on the Typhoon hull it would have split weapons Question.

Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.10 07:43:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Reatu Krentor

That does make me wonder why the Panther has the Tempest bonuses then Wink. If it was based on the Typhoon hull it would have split weapons Question.


Yes but if you'll notice, the widow gets the raven bonuses for missiles, ROF and range.

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2008.10.10 11:05:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Nnamuachs
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
...


Yes but if you'll notice, the widow gets the raven bonuses for missiles, ROF and range.

Exactly my point, why base the blackops hull on the tier 1 but then go ahead and give it the bonuses inherent of tier 2 hulls in the case of the Panther and the Widow.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.10 11:46:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
You can't just swap the hull to one that you prefer; all of them are based around the Tier I battleship hull (Typhoon > Panther, Armageddon > redeemer, Dominix > Sin, Scorpion > Widow)

But please, continue the discussion Smile


Then just keep the domi hull but switch the bonuses like you did with the caldari version.

Yaturi
Posted - 2008.10.10 12:45:00 - [28]
 

But why cant the hulls for the gallente marauder and black ops be switched. A domi hull for the Kronos would make more sense since its a good mission ship anyway. Megathron's hull would not only look better but be better suited towards blackops ops

Yaturi
Posted - 2008.10.10 12:48:00 - [29]
 

Quote:
you have the sin launching drones and then cloaking so no one can kill the source of the damage being dealt to them, which is also laughably unbalanced.

How? You're only having drones to deal with. You take them out with your drones or just enough till few are left. Then you just have to contend with droneless ship once it goes uncloaked. Whats to laugh about?

Reptzo
Channel 4 News Team
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2008.10.10 15:58:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Yaturi
Quote:
you have the sin launching drones and then cloaking so no one can kill the source of the damage being dealt to them, which is also laughably unbalanced.

How? You're only having drones to deal with. You take them out with your drones or just enough till few are left. Then you just have to contend with droneless ship once it goes uncloaked. Whats to laugh about?


Also, cloaking automatically abandons your drones, so that doesn't really work, the cloak and let drones attack.


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