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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2008.10.09 15:44:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 09/10/2008 15:45:28
I just gave yesterdays devs blog a listen and was very interested in what they had to say. Things are about to change and we will need to adapt accordingly.


What I would like to talk about is the comparable differences between EW frigs and Recons post speed change. Looks like frigs will be faster and will be able to hold there own much better then they can now. So where do all of you think this will put recons….will they still be the preferable option over their counterparts?


BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.10.09 16:13:00 - [2]
 

EW frigs cant claok+warp, therefore still insta-pop imo :s
Combat recons will be more or less the same, long range ewar is nicer now, but less mobility is more dangerous so pretty much neutral loss/gain.
Force recons are still the best imo...

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.09 16:24:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Esmenet on 09/10/2008 16:24:45
I'm guessing you will see a lot more falcons(until the inevitable ecm nerf) and a lot less rapiers. Maybe we see a bit more arazus while the ewar frigs are about the same.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2008.10.09 16:30:00 - [4]
 

Are not dedicated ECM ships being buffed in the process?

Something about an ECM amplifier that takes up a low slot?


Unless I have mistaken its the ECM on non-dedicated ECM ships that will be nerfed.


Incorrect?

Rajere
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2008.10.09 18:01:00 - [5]
 

you're talking about the kitsune specifically it seems. Don't recall anything about them specifically in speed changes, so generally speaking I don't think much is changing for them. The kistune has less mids, less lock range, and less strength than say a falcon, so the limitations it has aren't changing, you'll still need a MWD/SB leaving you at most 3 jammers, but even with SB you're not going to be able to lock things at racial optimal on top of not being able to fit atleast 1 of each racial, which screams "go with multispecs" which brings your lower strength down even lower.

The changes to its speed I don't think will matter in regards to how it's fit. While the thought process may be "it'll be naturally faster since its a frigate, so it can start to fit sig distortion amps in it's lows instead of speed mods." I'm not sure I'd agree with the logic. You're still slower than interceptors, t1 frigates, and other EAS frigates, and if you stop fitting speed mods in your lows you will be even slower therefore worse against them, relatively speaking, than you are currently. The very limited range still puts you in Geddon's scorch optimal without SB and an Apoc's with a SB fitted, basically the problems of the ship and the reason why you need more speed won't be affected by the speed nerf.

Knawt Ongrid
Posted - 2008.10.09 18:16:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Knawt Ongrid on 09/10/2008 18:16:46
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Are not dedicated ECM ships being buffed in the process?

Something about an ECM amplifier that takes up a low slot?


Unless I have mistaken its the ECM on non-dedicated ECM ships that will be nerfed.


Incorrect?


lol, yeah, maybe they can give the poor falcons/rooks/scorpions 40% bonuses, (20% just not enough for ecm ships after the last ecm nerf). meanwhile back in the batcave where it forever shall sit lies the arazu with 5% bonuse to damps and the pilgrim with no range on it's tackling ew Razz

Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Navigators of the Abyss
Posted - 2008.10.09 18:20:00 - [7]
 

If I remember correctly the Electronic Attack ships are getting slower not faster......

Sad panda is sad...

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2008.10.09 19:34:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 09/10/2008 19:34:18
That was just an ECM question I added in here. I believe I read it off of a dev blog and I should have stayed more on topic. But anyways....


Back to post speed change EW frig Vs Recon.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.10.09 20:17:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Rajere
you're talking about the kitsune specifically it seems. Don't recall anything about them specifically in speed changes, so generally speaking I don't think much is changing for them. The kistune has less mids, less lock range, and less strength than say a falcon, so the limitations it has aren't changing, you'll still need a MWD/SB leaving you at most 3 jammers, but even with SB you're not going to be able to lock things at racial optimal on top of not being able to fit atleast 1 of each racial, which screams "go with multispecs" which brings your lower strength down even lower.

The changes to its speed I don't think will matter in regards to how it's fit. While the thought process may be "it'll be naturally faster since its a frigate, so it can start to fit sig distortion amps in it's lows instead of speed mods." I'm not sure I'd agree with the logic. You're still slower than interceptors, t1 frigates, and other EAS frigates, and if you stop fitting speed mods in your lows you will be even slower therefore worse against them, relatively speaking, than you are currently. The very limited range still puts you in Geddon's scorch optimal without SB and an Apoc's with a SB fitted, basically the problems of the ship and the reason why you need more speed won't be affected by the speed nerf.


Kitsune has same ecm strength as falcon/rook. +20% per frig level.

Still locks at short range though.

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.10.10 02:28:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Knawt Ongrid
Edited by: Knawt Ongrid on 09/10/2008 18:16:46
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Are not dedicated ECM ships being buffed in the process?

Something about an ECM amplifier that takes up a low slot?


Unless I have mistaken its the ECM on non-dedicated ECM ships that will be nerfed.


Incorrect?


lol, yeah, maybe they can give the poor falcons/rooks/scorpions 40% bonuses, (20% just not enough for ecm ships after the last ecm nerf). meanwhile back in the batcave where it forever shall sit lies the arazu with 5% bonuse to damps and the pilgrim with no range on it's tackling ew Razz


I lol'd Laughing

P'uck
Posted - 2008.10.10 02:35:00 - [11]
 

I'm not sure, I think we can mostly really comment only after we saw the changes... but I have the sneaking suspicion warriors (and in some cases hobgoblins or even valkyries) will eat everything frigsized alive...

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.10.10 03:40:00 - [12]
 

EAS will continue to be newbie-only ships, obsolete the moment you undock your first force recon. Their problem is pathetic ewar compared to recons, and has nothing to do with speed.

Dirtee Girl
Rage of Inferno
Minor Threat.
Posted - 2008.10.10 04:26:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: P'uck
I'm not sure, I think we can mostly really comment only after we saw the changes... but I have the sneaking suspicion warriors (and in some cases hobgoblins or even valkyries) will eat everything frigsized alive...


i have the same feeling . frigs will be death traps . if i were starting eve rigth now i would train past frigs and not look back .

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.10.10 13:34:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin
EAS will continue to be newbie-only ships, obsolete the moment you undock your first force recon. Their problem is pathetic ewar compared to recons, and has nothing to do with speed.


Couldn't the same be said of T2 frigs vs. T2 cruisers?

I can't think of a reason to fly an EAS over a recon either, but I suppose if you had to have a frig only gang it would be fun.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.10.10 13:36:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: P'uck
I'm not sure, I think we can mostly really comment only after we saw the changes... but I have the sneaking suspicion warriors (and in some cases hobgoblins or even valkyries) will eat everything frigsized alive...


I trained a lot of pvp in frigates a year ago, and they teach you a lot. Their low HP forces you to think quick (fights are over fast). One thing I always learned in a frig was to have drones on overview and kill hostile drones attacking me first - then attack the bigger ships.

Derek Sigres
Posted - 2008.10.10 15:05:00 - [16]
 

My only experience is with the Kitsune, and as far as I can tell nothing meaningful is going to change there.

A fairly common mistake is to assume the Kitsune is a mini falcon when in fact it's more like a Blackbird in it's operational effectiveness. It has fewer jammers but they can be substantialy more powerful, and like the BB you are forced to make painful concessions regarding range (only it's worse in this case) versus the number of jammers.

The Kitusne does have some benefits of course - all of which relate to the simple fact that it's a frigate. It certainly has low EHP but it's a fairly hard target for some ships to hit. It has a short lock range (that can be offset with sensor boosters), but it can also get a lock quicker than any other ECM ship out there. It's also incredibly mobile compared to it's kin (both in terms of align times/warping speed and it's actual tactical speed).

In spite of all of this it's still generally better to use a BB rather than the Kitsune.

Kurt Gergard
Caldari
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.10 15:43:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Kurt Gergard on 10/10/2008 15:43:53
I flew the kitsune quite a lot and think about it as a sucide ship. On the positive side it can run a mwd and jammers for quite a long time is small agile short lock time and quite pretty. On the negative side: short lock range speed is not that great after all not enough med slots and it costs quite a lot (flying an unrigged kitsune is just pointless).

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2008.10.11 02:11:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Dex Nederland on 11/10/2008 02:15:26
1) don't fit an SB on the EASs, if you are engaging at ranges higher than 50 km you are likely no longer roaming and EASs are not the best stationary vehicles around. They will however lock faster than a cruiser with a Sensor Booster with targeting script. A Blackbird has to give up 3 mid slots to lock faster than Kitsune with out any SBs. Go with an AB and 4 multis on a Kitsune, str 8+ is achievable with 4s in most of jamming skills and a few 5s in core ones. Yes this isn't as great as the 12 you can get off the racials, but it lets you consistently jam 2 cruisers (other than Recons) 75% of the time.

2) ABs should work pretty well on EASs, they will get over 1 km/s that way. The Hyena should probably have a MWD, because it has bonuses for it, the others can probably do with out to conserve capacitor for their other mid slots.

3) None of the EASs really use cloaks, however if they find themselves about to be pounced upon by something they can't handle they can align and warp away within 1-2 seconds.

4) Four fitted EASs cost about as much as one fitted Recon.

Alright so that being said lets look at some interesting combos that would make life hell on a target.

Keres and Kitsune: These two can warp disrupt a battleship, jam it, and then when the Kitsune misses a jam cycle or 2 slow down the speed that the battleship is able to lock a non-MWDing Frigate (50s lock times suck :) ). All from 30+ kms with decent skills. All fitted cost less than the hull of the Battleship.

Kazang
Wrecking Shots
Posted - 2008.10.11 10:26:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
Edited by: Dex Nederland on 11/10/2008 02:15:26
1) don't fit an SB on the EASs, if you are engaging at ranges higher than 50 km you are likely no longer roaming and EASs are not the best stationary vehicles around. They will however lock faster than a cruiser with a Sensor Booster with targeting script. A Blackbird has to give up 3 mid slots to lock faster than Kitsune with out any SBs. Go with an AB and 4 multis on a Kitsune, str 8+ is achievable with 4s in most of jamming skills and a few 5s in core ones. Yes this isn't as great as the 12 you can get off the racials, but it lets you consistently jam 2 cruisers (other than Recons) 75% of the time.

2) ABs should work pretty well on EASs, they will get over 1 km/s that way. The Hyena should probably have a MWD, because it has bonuses for it, the others can probably do with out to conserve capacitor for their other mid slots.

3) None of the EASs really use cloaks, however if they find themselves about to be pounced upon by something they can't handle they can align and warp away within 1-2 seconds.

4) Four fitted EASs cost about as much as one fitted Recon.

Alright so that being said lets look at some interesting combos that would make life hell on a target.

Keres and Kitsune: These two can warp disrupt a battleship, jam it, and then when the Kitsune misses a jam cycle or 2 slow down the speed that the battleship is able to lock a non-MWDing Frigate (50s lock times suck :) ). All from 30+ kms with decent skills. All fitted cost less than the hull of the Battleship.


This, the main advantage that the EAS have is that they are frigates they move fast, they align fast, they lock fast, it take ages for a BS to lock one of them and they are cheap. They excel in small gangs attacking larger slower targets. Falcons are obv better but they cost so much more.


 

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