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Liranan
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.10.09 11:46:00 - [1]
 

Let's get a few things out of the way first before we start discussing the real issue(s) that plague EVE.

- CCP intend to release ambulation. Ambulation is a fantastic idea, were it not for the fact that they spend more time and money on promoting something that won't be released for quite some time rather than fixing the real problems of EVE. Also ambulation is an experiment, intended to test the mechanics of their WoD MMO.

- What powers does the CSM have other than the power to be ignored? So far we have seen very little concrete evidence that CCP actually will do anything the CSM propose other than pretend they care.

- The CSM have been forbidded from discussing certain issues because CCP want to move on to more 'important' things and don't want to 'dwell' on issues they don't care about. The issues I am talking about are lag and disconnects.

The CSM is, obviously, not a revolutionary idea. The idea was implemented by Sony in an attempt to save them from disaster and look where that led them. SOE has become a company many people avoid simply because of the great work they have done over the years. They are experts at taking successfull MMO's and totally ruining them through lack of support and lack of care. As long as the customer pays Sony are happy.

I am beginning to see that CCP and Sony share one very fundamental aspect, and that's neither care about their customers. How many people have proposed things that would help the game? How many people have asked CCP to solve really important issues rather than concentrate on attracting more players through unwanted expansions? CCP usually have a very good response to these. Either they are very straightforward and say "NO" or have some half baked excuse that the mechanic that has been proposed would break the game, prevent people from logging in, ruin experience, etc. Of course these are ridiculous excuses and we all know this.

The question is what future does the CSM have? I know many people who never voted and will not vote because the CSM has no power and CCP aren't listening. There are many people who can't play and CCP don't care about paying customers who NEED the help, so who are the CSM for CCP to take time, effort and energy to lend an ear to?

My point is not whining about CCP's utter contempt for us as players but to ask what future EVE, the CSM and our relationship with CCP have. Do we need CCP to go down the path of SOE and lose millions, possibly billions, before they learn players will punish them or are there ways we, the players, can make CCP listen? If not then what options do we have? If none then we can simply disband the CSM as some failed experiment and accept that we are running around in a mill while CCP watch and take notes.

I obviously trust CCP to show the same amount of care they have in the past and continue on their path of self-destruct, the same path Sony took. But I would like to hear from the rest of the CSM and all players in regards to this matter.

Triest
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.10.09 14:47:00 - [2]
 

Nope. This thread will still be locked for trolling, though.

CSMs were a sop to the community (and in particular to impress the mainstream media) after the various developer scandals, it was never intended to have actual power. All they can do is suggest changes, and CCP are free to act on them, one way or another, on their own discretion.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.10.09 14:59:00 - [3]
 


It doesn't really need to be locked for trolling - it does however need to be moved to Jita park because its not an ISSUE thread and shouldn't be in AH.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.10.09 16:51:00 - [4]
 

Personally I think the poster should be banned.
But that's me.

/me thumbs down

NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:42:00 - [5]
 

Did the notion of it becoming in style to bash the CSM suddenly infuse those with 5% of the courage to outright get it done that the forum wind was finally blowing into their whine-sails and that the rest of Eve would recognize their trendiness?

A lot of half-hearted only-stating-the-fact's have been coming out of the woods lately. Maybe it's time for a "CSM bashers have completely failed" kind of fad.

Moon Kitten
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2008.10.09 17:52:00 - [6]
 

Quote:
- The CSM have been forbidden from discussing certain issues because CCP want to move on to more 'important' things and don't want to 'dwell' on issues they don't care about. The issues I am talking about are lag and disconnects.

Your statement is incorrect. CCP are already working on reducing lag, they are in fact and have been dwelling on lag for a very long time. CCP has stated that they believe that lag is an important issue for them.

This thread is pointless and telling CCP to do something they are already doing is also a waste of time.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.09 18:03:00 - [7]
 

This whole line of argument is old, tired, and pretty clearly false. Yes, CCP is a business, and yes their marketing department has some influence over what happens. But what precisely is the alternative you want to see - would you prefer that the game is silky-smooth and lag-free with no players and a bankrupt company running it? Because from here, that looks like the alternative. I'll criticize some of their past decisions in a lot of fields, but I'm not such a fool as to believe that they can just overturn all of those decisions instantly and with no ill consequences.

Just because you don't want to make tough decisions does not prevent CCP from being required to make them. Look at the issue of reloading all ammo at once, for example - I started the thread that the CSM brought forward, so I think we can all agree that I'm for it. I regard their argument that it'll increase lag as a bit unlikely, but I don't fault CCP for making it. It's really easy to snipe from the sidelines, and to complain about not living in the best of all possible worlds. I think they're being too cautious and are making a bad decision because of it, but I won't be the one getting the "FIX TEH LAGZ!" whines if it turns out that they're not.

Just because you aren't getting what you want when you want it does not mean that their rationale for not giving it to you is bad. Your whines don't have limitations, but their programmers do. The fact that CCP is working within those limitations does not mean that the CSM has failed - quite the contrary, those limitations are the reason that the CSM could possibly be successful. If CCP could make a game spring fully-formed from Hammer's forehead, then they wouldn't need us to tell them what to do, they'd just do it. But because they have development cycles, limited manpower, and all the rest of that stuff, they can't do everything, and so they need to set priorities.

This is the primary function of the CSM in many ways - it sorts out the signal from the noise, and says "Players genuinely care about X, but Y and Z are just being flogged by a handful of loudmouths, ignore them" to CCP. A year from now(i.e., a development cycle), we'll see the results of that. I'd like it faster, but I know that's either impossible or likely to give us another boot.ini issue from lack of testing. Patience - all good things will come to those who wait.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.10.09 18:15:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Drake Draconis on 09/10/2008 23:53:50
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
This whole line of argument is old, tired, and pretty clearly false. Yes, CCP is a business, and yes their marketing department has some influence over what happens. But what precisely is the alternative you want to see - would you prefer that the game is silky-smooth and lag-free with no players and a bankrupt company running it? Because from here, that looks like the alternative. I'll criticize some of their past decisions in a lot of fields, but I'm not such a fool as to believe that they can just overturn all of those decisions instantly and with no ill consequences.

Just because you don't want to make tough decisions does not prevent CCP from being required to make them. Look at the issue of reloading all ammo at once, for example - I started the thread that the CSM brought forward, so I think we can all agree that I'm for it. I regard their argument that it'll increase lag as a bit unlikely, but I don't fault CCP for making it. It's really easy to snipe from the sidelines, and to complain about not living in the best of all possible worlds. I think they're being too cautious and are making a bad decision because of it, but I won't be the one getting the "FIX TEH LAGZ!" whines if it turns out that they're not.

Just because you aren't getting what you want when you want it does not mean that their rationale for not giving it to you is bad. Your whines don't have limitations, but their programmers do. The fact that CCP is working within those limitations does not mean that the CSM has failed - quite the contrary, those limitations are the reason that the CSM could possibly be successful. If CCP could make a game spring fully-formed from Hammer's forehead, then they wouldn't need us to tell them what to do, they'd just do it. But because they have development cycles, limited manpower, and all the rest of that stuff, they can't do everything, and so they need to set priorities.

This is the primary function of the CSM in many ways - it sorts out the signal from the noise, and says "Players genuinely care about X, but Y and Z are just being flogged by a handful of loudmouths, ignore them" to CCP. A year from now(i.e., a development cycle), we'll see the results of that. I'd like it faster, but I know that's either impossible or likely to give us another boot.ini issue from lack of testing. Patience - all good things will come to those who wait.


That is exactly... what I'm trying to hammer into these people's infernal thick skulls.
Stop whining and shut the frick up.... if you want to help then be constructive or gtfo and gb2wow.

The CSM are human beings just like the rest of us... they make mistakes just like the rest of us.. but at least they give a damn about us... and that's why the bother to put up with our whines and complaints and gnashing of teeth.

Heck I'd been tempted to dig in (except for my lack of age and time put into EVE) but I couldn't tolerate half the stupidity I see that gets flung all over the place.

People who sign up for the CSM should be given a solid pat on the back for tolerating the trash that gets thrown around... agenda or not.. at least they are trying.
Give im credit for that.

PS: Herschel you runnin? I'd vote for yah ; O )

Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:29:00 - [9]
 

The CSM is makin a difference. Thing is, given development schedules, we won't see the fruits of this until next year. I am heartened by the responses from CCP about the value of the CSM (and ultimately players submitting on Assmbly hall) input.

CCP are a company providing an enjoyable game for us to play. It's in their best interests (financially) to implement ideas that will enrich gameplay and make players stick about for more than 3 months paying subscriptions. Since players might have ideas about what some good features are, it makes sense to give them a conduit (the CSM) to express these to CCP.

The CSM acts as a clearing house for these ideas. Those with merit are put forward for the consideration of CCP. It was clear from the last meeting that CCP was taking these ideas and using them to shape future expansions and development paths.

One of the additional functions that the CSM serves is to make sure that ideas and issues that reach an agenda are well constructed/defined and meet the criteria to be considered (player support/CSM member support). An essential function in this is CSM members interacting with players in the Assembly hall and Jita park (and additionally via other forums and channels).

Take care,
Arithron

Lia Gaeren
Caldari
Pole Dancing Vixens
Posted - 2008.10.10 00:04:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Liranan
I know many people who never voted and will not vote because the CSM has no power and CCP aren't listening.
Then they are short-sighted and foolish. The more people who vote, the more power the CSM has because it is clearly representing a larger portion of the player base. If 90% of the player base voted and brought in candidates who advocated no PvE content, that EVE should be 100% PvP - then CCP would seriously need to sit down and make some decisions about the direction of the game or risk alienating a massive percentage of the player base... who might then choose to take their entertainment euro/dollar elsewhere.

Of course the issues are never quite that cut and dried. But the fact remains that in EVE as well as in RL, the more people who vote, the more representative is the result. If you don't vote then you don't really have a leg to stand on if you say that the elected individuals don't have power or don't represent you.

Liranan
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.10.10 03:29:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Liranan on 10/10/2008 03:30:07
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Personally I think the poster should be banned.
But that's me.

/me thumbs down


I agree, I should be banned. I'm only trolling. Please ban me together with
Poor MM guyasking the exact same I'm asking but in a different way going to get banned for trolling.
TrollingI wholeheartedly support.
TrollingI do not support.
Walls of textin chat channels.
Who cares?I don't fly these ships.

So, when are we ALL going to get banned? Most of the things posted by the CSM themselves can be seen as troll because they create angry arguments by people who on either side. Make Drake Draconis a GM, he will solve all the flaming in CAOD!

As we can see lag is NOT, and I repeat NOT, a tired old discussion. If it is and people deserve to be banned for it then I recommend we start with the 'trolls' in the 2 page thread started by Praetor Novak.

What you missed was me asking whether the CSM had any effect on CCP's policies. I am not complaining about lag but feel free to whine about it anyway. I want to know what the CSM have, will and could achieve. The only thing Sony achieved was nothing, is that what has been achieved so far or has more? Drake Draconis spare me your flaming. Your pointless ranting is unwanted as my thick skull just found loads of people needing a ban under your wise guidance.

Also if we are to 'shut up' and let CCP do their job then why does the CSM exist? I assume that is something that was never thought about prior to poasting.

In all fairness I am angry and frustrated but this is a serious question. For example, when it comes to the nano nerf, how much of an effect did the CSM have on CCP's decision to nerf what?

P.S. If all you can do is troll, please go to CAOD, trolling is welcome there and be a little child and poast with your 'main' instead of hiding behind some veil pretending your opinion means anything when you are scared of revealing who you actually are.

Liranan
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.10.10 03:35:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: NanDe YaNen
Did the notion of it becoming in style to bash the CSM suddenly infuse those with 5% of the courage to outright get it done that the forum wind was finally blowing into their whine-sails and that the rest of Eve would recognize their trendiness?

A lot of half-hearted only-stating-the-fact's have been coming out of the woods lately. Maybe it's time for a "CSM bashers have completely failed" kind of fad.


Are you intending to run for the CSM or are you trying to get the CSM's attention in regards to an issue?

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.10 04:50:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Liranan
I agree, I should be banned. I'm only trolling. Please ban me together with
Poor MM guyasking the exact same I'm asking but in a different way going to get banned for trolling.
TrollingI wholeheartedly support.
TrollingI do not support.
Walls of textin chat channels.
Who cares?I don't fly these ships.


The poll threads are hardly "trolling", they're a patch on a forum mechanic that has only been implemented partially, and they're a very useful one at that. It was, and is(albeit on the back burner) the biggest issue to most players, and having a concrete method of telling what people thought about it was a massively valuable thing. And your last example is just juvenile.

I think Drake is being a bit of jerk asking for your ban, but if those are the worst other threads you can find, maybe he's right.

Originally by: Liranan
What you missed was me asking whether the CSM had any effect on CCP's policies. I am not complaining about lag but feel free to whine about it anyway. I want to know what the CSM have, will and could achieve. The only thing Sony achieved was nothing, is that what has been achieved so far or has more? Drake Draconis spare me your flaming. Your pointless ranting is unwanted as my thick skull just found loads of people needing a ban under your wise guidance.


What they have achieved at this point is minor - as I said, a typical development cycle is a year long, and their first submission to CCP was three months ago. As for what they will and could achieve, that's obviously much greater. I expect the CSM to have a major role in shaping CCP's vision of what players want and how we want it, as well as providing a useful vector for cool new ideas on how things could work. CCP has taken player suggestions and put them into the game before - I believe that they directly attributed the stab nerf to a player, for example - but this provides a mechanism for them to do so in a better fashion.

Originally by: Liranan
Also if we are to 'shut up' and let CCP do their job then why does the CSM exist? I assume that is something that was never thought about prior to poasting.

In all fairness I am angry and frustrated but this is a serious question. For example, when it comes to the nano nerf, how much of an effect did the CSM have on CCP's decision to nerf what?


Who said anything about shutting up? I said to have a bit of faith and a bit of patience. I'm certainly not opposed to complaining(just look at my forum history), just to complaining done ignorantly.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.10.10 18:44:00 - [14]
 

I'm being a jerk because I'm sick and tired of seeing morons who just go around whining and being deconstructive when they should be getting off there fat lazy asses and actually helping out instead of throwing a fit and doing not a damn thing about it.

All your doing is repeating the same thing for the thousandth time... not to mention annoying the CCP by having them move this thread if that's any evidence.

So forgive me for being annoyed at the foolishness of some individuals.
Not to mention the fact that you ranting about me being made GM so I can go ban the whole lot of you folks is only proving my case in light of your attitude on the manner.

And even then I wouldn't take the job... a little too much pressure for that kind of standard.
Few could even meet it as it is.... even myself.

As far as you complaining about the actual progress of the CSM... if you had bothered to pay attention and think things through before you even started flapping your gums you'd see that this is not a "do it right now" type scenario... this stuff takes time for CCP to resolve.

Most people here always assume its a quick fix... yet they completely forget that they have no idea what really makes EVE Work... the programming... the development... the research.. the loads.
All you do is just complain and whine and what not.

The CSM's purpose is to filter the noise down to a few people as opposed to a few thousand.
Its easier to get information... this means you need to VOTE.... to insure to make sure you get the right people for the right job.

As far as you throwing a fit and hinting/implying that the CSM is a waste of time... think about where that would go next... CSM gets shut down.. now you have nothing... except a bunch of annoyed Dev's who dont have the time to read every-single-stinking-post on these boards.
Let alone to listen to people who THINK they know best and have it made in the shade when only a small portion do.

So yes... I am that jerk.... the guy who shines spotlights in your face to say HEY.... knock it off.

Sorry if you took offense to the "you should be banned".

Because honestly.... your just 1 more to the pile of noise that has nothing better to do then to kick dirt in the face of CSM.

Like I've been saying.. you want it fixed? Get involved... stop complaining..and do something about it.
And don't expect it to be done over night.
It could very well be a year.... better that..then nothing at all.

So I'm sorry if I seem harsh... but you kinda get tired of seeing the repetitiveness of "OMGWTHCSMSUXKTHXBAI"

Cool


Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2008.10.10 20:56:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Drake Draconis
EMO rant



Well with that type of attitude no one, and I mean no one one will want to respond with a constructive post. If you are going to be all emo about a video game you need a break. Your posts and threads just brings out the trolls and flames. You are creating the problem.

As to the OP. Dude you need to understand what the CSM is for. It is to filter out the noise to have a couple good ideas that actually would make things a bit better than sifting through thousands of EMO rants and ADD enhanced misfits to get an idea what to do next.

The lag, they know, they get it. They are working on it.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.10.10 22:57:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: Drake Draconis
EMO rant



Well with that type of attitude no one, and I mean no one one will want to respond with a constructive post. If you are going to be all emo about a video game you need a break. Your posts and threads just brings out the trolls and flames. You are creating the problem.


You posted didn't you? Constructively and you read my post. Cool
Guess I don't scare the "thinkers" away. ^_^

I have a life by the way.... full time job... good one at that.... taking care of my parents whom suffer much in this world (health wise). If I took this game too seriously.. I'd play it 24/7 and be posting up a storm.

If you can think of a better way to get the point across and to rally the people who just "read" and don't say much... be my guest.

Small talk is cheap.... I guess that's why I tend to be long winded.
Sorry if that bugs you... but that's who I am.

Nice to see someone gives a rip tho.. so you have my respect..and my regards.
o7

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.10.12 04:12:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Liranan
- The CSM have been forbidded from discussing certain issues because CCP want to move on to more 'important' things and don't want to 'dwell' on issues they don't care about. The issues I am talking about are lag and disconnects.


What exactly is the CSM saying "remove lag plz" going to accomplish? CCP is well aware of the lag issues, and those lag issues are an inevitable consequence of trying to have 500+ people involved in a battle. This isn't some simple issue of turning the lag switch off where all the CSM needs to do is ask for it. No amount of whining is going to make the hardware issues go away, and even if/when CCP manages to find a solution to the current lag, players will simply start bringing bigger and bigger blobs until they hit the NEW server limit.


As for useful or not, the real test will be the nano nerf. If the CSM gets an alternate idea for the final nerf, it will have done its job. If CCP just ignores their advice (as I suspect they will), it will be painfully obvious that it's nothing more than a publicity stunt.

Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2008.10.12 06:00:00 - [18]
 

the amount of whine is too much to go with my cheese in this thread, tbh.

The CSM, whilst having flaws in its first ever run, did its job, and that is bringing issues in front of CCP that matter to players, instead of them having to sift through tons of crap whine posts like this to get to actual, good info they could use.

Does it mean I like the CSM now? Not really.

Oh, so that means I DONT like the idea of the CSM and that it should just be thrown away since its useless. No either.

The CSM is a far better option than having CCP getting the wrong idea from the stupid amounts of noise and whines on the forum.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.10.12 08:20:00 - [19]
 

I already see a massive response to the second CSM. Maybe we'll get actually 400 people to vote.

Lia Gaeren
Caldari
Pole Dancing Vixens
Posted - 2008.10.12 10:00:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
I already see a massive response to the second CSM. Maybe we'll get actually 400 people to vote.
Patience, grasshopper. I don't think CCP has approved the candidacies yet - when that happens I would expect to see a lot more campaigns begun in earnest...

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.12 14:10:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
I already see a massive response to the second CSM. Maybe we'll get actually 400 people to vote.


Originally by: Mid-January 2007
Just look at the terrible response to the Democratic primaries. We've got Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, John Edwards, Mike Gravel, Dennis Kucinich, and Tom Vilsack. With this list of candidates, we'll be lucky if we get 400 delegates to show up to the convention, never mind actually winning the Presidency.


Of course, a month later, Clinton and Obama had both launched. It's a rule of elections - the no-names launch first, because they need to make a splash to stand out from the crowd, because they're hoping to use the extra weeks or months to build momentum, or because they don't understand how easy it is to be forgotten when you're talking before anybody is listening. Look again in a week or two and tell me that there's no response.

elric gallach
Posted - 2008.10.12 16:54:00 - [22]
 

The problem with the csm as i see it.
Isn't that it hasn't done anything.Exclamation
But that it hasn't been seen to have done anything.
CCP has not given it a chance to validate itself.
And as such needs to do something visual, for the rank and file.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.18 12:42:00 - [23]
 

Look at how stupid the OP is

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.10.18 16:10:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Look at how stupid the OP is


That's nothing... its going to get much worse in the next few days.
Guaranteed.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.18 16:32:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Look at how stupid the OP is


You guys in GoonSwarm should copyright that remark, I have never seen it bandied around to discredit bad, as well as good posts, until Goons came to the game.




Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.18 16:33:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Jinx Barker on 18/10/2008 16:34:25
Originally by: Drake Draconis
That's nothing... its going to get much worse in the next few days.
Guaranteed.


How does it feel to be a cheerleader? At least OP is talking, and raised some valid points. All I see from you are one-liners, like you are on stage performing a comedy act, or just bumping that certain aspect....

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.10.18 16:43:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Jinx Barker
Edited by: Jinx Barker on 18/10/2008 16:34:25
Originally by: Drake Draconis
That's nothing... its going to get much worse in the next few days.
Guaranteed.


How does it feel to be a cheerleader? At least OP is talking, and raised some valid points. All I see from you are one-liners, like you are on stage performing a comedy act, or just bumping that certain aspect....


Is it a crime to agree with a goon?
Oh wait... your typecasting and applying stereotypes... I'm sorry... I guess I assumed you had the intelligence and rationality to look beyond that.

I'll have to watch what I say in the future then.

Epic Fail

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.10.18 16:49:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Drake Draconis
Is it a crime to agree with a goon?
Oh wait... your typecasting and applying stereotypes... I'm sorry... I guess I assumed you had the intelligence and rationality to look beyond that.

I'll have to watch what I say in the future then.

Epic Fail


No actually, it is not, even though I do not like Goons in general, I find myself agreeing with many of them quite often. Well, we can leave the "herd behaviour" out of it for a moment. I do think it is a crime to pretend not to have an opinion! Which what you seem to have shown in your last couple of posts.

Just posting a quip and glib remark does not cut it. I personally want to hear what you think - rather than a quote of something relatively amusing.

And you know why I want to know what you think? Even though you are a complete stranger to me? Because I think that for the most part part last CSM was not very effective, because I think this is last time I will give CSM idea benefit of the doubt, and I want to see how they do on the second session, and because I think it really affects everyone in game, including you....

So do not pretend to be an idiot, and actually give your opinion out.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.10.18 17:30:00 - [29]
 

For me to express my opinion in such terms you could understand... would be a waste of my time... not to mention everyone else.

You already made your mind up... your beating your war drum.

Why bother?


 

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