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No seriously
Posted - 2008.10.08 04:47:00 - [1]
 

This isn't a whine thread, just a "huh?" thread... in fact I don't yet fly the Harb OR the Hurricane.

Initially the Hurricane and Harbinger look similar in a lot of ways.

The hurricane can still put out DPS when it's neuted out, so it has an advantage there. It can also dictate some range.

The Harbinger clearly has more damage opportunity though, and it doesn't really need to dictate range because it uses lasers. It also has a better opportunity for a passive armor tank. (More base armor, and more PG.)

Nonetheless, you look around killboards and videos and what do you see? Hurricane, hurricane, hurricane. Hurricanes everywhere! They're one of the non-nanoed ships of wtfpwnage.

I'm not claiming that Hurricanes are overpowered btw. I'm sure they're just fine.

But I do wonder: where's the praise for the Harbinger? Or... is there some reason that they suck? Looking at fittings, etc, I can't imagine they suck. In fact, I fly Gallente and Caldar, and I WISH I had a gunship as awesome as the Harbinger.

So what gives?

Where's the praise and videos of Harbinger ownage?

Gram Hellfire
Priory Of The Lemon
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.10.08 04:58:00 - [2]
 

Love for the 'binger is limited due to the low cost of the geddon. The geddon's pure kill/isk ratio owns the harbinger's completely. Also, a heavy pulse MWD harbinger cannot fit a plate, iirc.

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:06:00 - [3]
 

and have you seen how SEXY the cane is?

its just hot baby. HOT HOT HOT Razz

you are correct. the harbinger is a badass though and the above makes sense that the small isk increase to step up to the even more badass geddon has a lot to do with it

to step up from the cane we get the phoon, while very nice, isn't quite the same thing and required much more SP to be as effective.

Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:09:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Gram Hellfire
Love for the 'binger is limited due to the low cost of the geddon. The geddon's pure kill/isk ratio owns the harbinger's completely. Also, a heavy pulse MWD harbinger cannot fit a plate, iirc.


it can with awu 4, and a reactor control II, but its mids are mwd, web, scram, cap recharger (named one too for cpu)

I would pick harb over cane most of the time, I dont know why I dont fly harb's more tbh, only bad thing about it is I think it looks bad.

No seriously
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:11:00 - [5]
 

Yeah actually I was wondering about that. Hurricane = one of the best looking kali ships, imo.

Harb = blech... like the Domi. Solid ship, and fugly.

Kerdrak
GreenSwarm
Black Legion.
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:19:00 - [6]
 

I used to fly the harbinger very often when focused medium pulses II were at 300k/u. Now I prefer to use a Geddon.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:34:00 - [7]
 

With AWU4 the harb can fit 800mm plate + mwd + 7 heavy pulse II + small cap booster.

Vanthropy
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:37:00 - [8]
 

they both rock absolute ballz tbh

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:41:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 08/10/2008 05:41:49
1) The Hurricane just looks awesome. It's pretty mediocre stats-wise, but style has some value to people.

2) There are a lot of people who have Minmatar skills, whether because they trained Minmatar before the metagame shifts and haven't switched to Amarr/Caldari, or because they fly/want to fly a Vagabond/Rapier/Sleipnir/Broadsword. The Hurricane gives them a decent BC without having to spend all the time getting T2 lasers to improve a ship class that really isn't their end goal in EVE.


As for which is better, Harbinger in every way. This just isn't even a close fight, the only BC that can give the Harbinger any serious competition for "best BC" is the Drake, and even there, the Harbinger is a pretty close second.

Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:45:00 - [10]
 

I am FOTMing for the 'geddon (ex-Mega pilot, recently reactivated the account). I'm personally looking forward to flying the Harbinger.

Though, right before I quit I had trained medium projectile 5 because midsize Minmatar ships rock.

Yeah, my philosophy is fly everything, then you're nerfproof. Laughing

Vanthropy
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:45:00 - [11]
 

lol, hurricane is my endgame ship after my deimos :D.. i only fly what looks ****ing sick.. and they both do. and my skill tree isn't massive either. Hmm gotta love amarr though, what are you into merin? Hvy missile drake or Ham drake?

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:49:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Vanthropy
lol, hurricane is my endgame ship after my deimos :D.. i only fly what looks ****ing sick.. and they both do. and my skill tree isn't massive either. Hmm gotta love amarr though, what are you into merin? Hvy missile drake or Ham drake?


Heavy missile. HAM Drake ends up switching to javelin HAMs so often that you might as well take advantage of the lower grid and FoFs from heavy launchers. Of course I love my Falcon and 250km HML Cerberus better than either...

Cmndr Griff
Viziam
Posted - 2008.10.08 05:50:00 - [13]
 

Harbingers are awesome! If you can cope with a bit less DPS then drop down to FMPs and a 1600mm. Not as ganky, but it isn't that much less for the EHP you get, and tank is usually king these days. You could use a 'geddon sure but with two or three 1600mm plates you are about as agile as Lisa Riley.

I put both ships in the same league, though the Harbinger has that versatile range to hit out too with Scorch so for me it is just that bit better. Bad thing is that damn 7th turret location, sort it out CCP and the fact that ***drakes are better.


HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2008.10.08 06:19:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

As for which is better, Harbinger in every way. This just isn't even a close fight, the only BC that can give the Harbinger any serious competition for "best BC" is the Drake, and even there, the Harbinger is a pretty close second.


thats a fairly ignorant comment, no offense.
eft warrioring, sure whatever.

its all about 3 things. setup, pilot and scenario. you cant just stamp one as hands down better than the other between these 2 ships.

harbinger is a great ship. but i have yet to see a harbinger stand up to my cane.

Gneeznow
Minmatar
Ship spinners inc
Posted - 2008.10.08 06:21:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: HankMurphy
Originally by: Merin Ryskin

As for which is better, Harbinger in every way. This just isn't even a close fight, the only BC that can give the Harbinger any serious competition for "best BC" is the Drake, and even there, the Harbinger is a pretty close second.


thats a fairly ignorant comment, no offense.
eft warrioring, sure whatever.

its all about 3 things. setup, pilot and scenario. you cant just stamp one as hands down better than the other between these 2 ships.

harbinger is a great ship. but i have yet to see a harbinger stand up to my cane.


hank speaketh the truth, setup, pilot, and scenario mean everything

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.10.08 06:30:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Gneeznow
hank speaketh the truth, setup, pilot, and scenario mean everything


I won't disagree, but some favorable scenarios are exceedingly difficult to engineer - and that should factor into any discussion.

-Liang

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.10.08 06:53:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: HankMurphy
harbinger is a great ship. but i have yet to see a harbinger stand up to my cane.
\

How exactly is a Hurricane supposed to beat a Harbinger? Both ships have essentially the same dps with identical tanks, but the Harbinger's optimal range is better than the Hurricane's optimal + falloff. Even if you start off at point-blank range, the Harbinger stands a pretty good chance of just slugging it out and winning, while if the Harbinger gets any range advantage at the beginning, it's just going to be a massacre.

Sure, you can beat a Harbinger if the Harbinger pilot sucks, but that just means your skillpoint advantage is enough to overcome the superiority of the other guy's ship.

And we won't even begin to comment on the Harbinger/Drake's massive advantage in anything other than a 1v1...

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.08 07:07:00 - [18]
 

Dual neut on hurricane + higher resists to damage from harb than harb has resists to cane damage.

Pilot Abilene
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.10.08 07:15:00 - [19]
 

Most of those Harby kills, dare I say, would be the FOTM crew jumping into laserboats thinking they can fly them effectively with support skills at 3 ^.^ With this in mind and the increased popularity of Amarr ships it's only logical that we see more dead.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.10.08 07:24:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Dual neut on hurricane + higher resists to damage from harb than harb has resists to cane damage.


Neuts, I'll grant, if the Hurricane starts out point-blank, but better damage type? Think again. If the Hurricane is tanked significantly, it probably has an explosive hardener, and EM will actualy be lower than explosive. If the Hurricane is un-tanked, the high EM resist on armor is offset by the zero EM resist on shields, since both are essentially the same.

Vanthropy
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.08 07:43:00 - [21]
 

well.. cuz the harby's optimal is actually a hindrance at point blank range (see tracking) the hurricane pilot (you know, if he's good like me) will melt the harby's face by like.. orbiting..

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.10.08 07:53:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Vanthropy
well.. cuz the harby's optimal is actually a hindrance at point blank range (see tracking) the hurricane pilot (you know, if he's good like me) will melt the harby's face by like.. orbiting..


You have to orbit within 500 meters to really have a good chance of outtracking his guns. Webs are a *****.

-Liang

Cmndr Griff
Viziam
Posted - 2008.10.08 07:58:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Vanthropy
well.. cuz the harby's optimal is actually a hindrance at point blank range (see tracking) the hurricane pilot (you know, if he's good like me) will melt the harby's face by like.. orbiting..


You have to orbit within 500 meters to really have a good chance of outtracking his guns. Webs are a *****.

-Liang


Yeah I have never had an issue with that to be honest, a sensible Harby pilot would be trying to move away, or if both had ECM drones (which I don't think unreasonable) then the Harby is more likely to get a jam and again MWD out of the cane optimal.

Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.10.08 08:37:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 08/10/2008 08:39:11
Originally by: Pilot Abilene
Most of those Harby kills, dare I say, would be the FOTM crew jumping into laserboats thinking they can fly them effectively with support skills at 3 ^.^ With this in mind and the increased popularity of Amarr ships it's only logical that we see more dead.

Oi! I'm a FOTM chaser, and my controlled bursts, energy management, and eng. systems op. are all at 5 TYVM >:D

... and I won't bother hopping into my harby until my medium pulse spec is at 4 ~_~

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.10.08 09:58:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Terianna Eri on 08/10/2008 09:59:56
Originally by: Vanthropy
well.. cuz the harby's optimal is actually a hindrance at point blank range (see tracking) the hurricane pilot (you know, if he's good like me) will melt the harby's face by like.. orbiting..

Larger optimal doesn't make you mysteriously track worse at close range, and medium-size pulse lasers track really quite phenominally well.

Also...
Originally by: Gram Hellfire
Love for the 'binger is limited due to the low cost of the geddon. The geddon's pure kill/isk ratio owns the harbinger's completely. Also, a heavy pulse MWD harbinger cannot fit a plate, iirc.

Quote:
[Harbinger, Gank]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Faint Warp Prohibitor I
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M
Salvager I /OFFLINE
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Hammerhead II x5

It needs a little bit of extra CPU - there's several things you can do about it. I have a cpu reduction implant.

No seriously
Posted - 2008.10.08 11:46:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: No seriously on 08/10/2008 11:51:45
Hmm, a little EFT warring seems like the hurricane's dps is better AND has a better tank... and that's just with 6 guns, not even considering missiles etc. (I've discounted drones, since I assume both will be carrying chickenout/wishiwassoloinginafalcon drones Laughing)

Eh, nvm!

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.08 12:50:00 - [27]
 

Harb got larger drone bay...

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.10.08 12:53:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: No seriously
Edited by: No seriously on 08/10/2008 11:51:45
Hmm, a little EFT warring seems like the hurricane's dps is better AND has a better tank... and that's just with 6 guns, not even considering missiles etc. (I've discounted drones, since I assume both will be carrying chickenout/wishiwassoloinginafalcon drones Laughing)

Eh, nvm!

poast setups plx

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2008.10.08 13:15:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: No seriously
Edited by: No seriously on 08/10/2008 11:51:45
Hmm, a little EFT warring seems like the hurricane's dps is better AND has a better tank... and that's just with 6 guns, not even considering missiles etc. (I've discounted drones, since I assume both will be carrying chickenout/wishiwassoloinginafalcon drones Laughing)

Eh, nvm!


Take out Hail from your guns unless you have two webs.

Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Posted - 2008.10.08 13:22:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Diomidis on 08/10/2008 13:22:22
I can fly Drake, Cane and Harbi with T2 speced weapons pretty decently. All of those are underutilized in my hangar, simply because I seem to preffer nano-hacs/recons and BSs more.

EFT wise the Drake and the Harbi are pretty awesome: very good EHPs, strong dps, large drone bay for the Harbi etc...in fact the Harbi seams like the only BC that a HAM-Drake should fear - considering it's dmg type, range and ECM drone capabilities.

Yet the Harbi seems to work on plated setups, while RR is not much of an option in smaller gangs. Notice that I think FMP IIs + 1600mm RT is the way to go for the Harbi. Add some Armor Rigs for flavour (resistance, trimarks, whatever) and that adds up to make it considerably slower than the opposition in it's class. When you are roaming and the possibility for thing to go ugly rises, fast align time is your friend.

Thus, the faster and more agile Cane surpasses the Harbi, as it's easier for it to be fitted with either dual MARs or a decent shield buffer tank. Due to range and EHP limitations, such a Cane might not be able to take down in a 1vs1 fight either a strong HAM Drake, nor a Harbi. Still it can outrun them in most cases and evade unfavorable engagements, while still being fast enough to catch up against smaller prey.

It's also a tad cheaper to fit a decent Cane for small roaming gangs, cause it's not based on expensive EHP armor/shield rigs, unlike both HAM-Drake and Harbi respectively.

Don't take me wrong: the Harbi is an excellent BC - one of the best. Still it's caught between the awesomeness of both Amarrian HASs which are faster, more agile and decently ganky (+ range for both the Zealot's range, and Sac' if you like the Javelin option), and the Geddon's cheap yet uber range + dps combo. Perhaps things will change in favour to the Harbi and the rest BCs when/if the Speed Nerf comes alive, yet time will show. The sad part is, that even if that happens, the Harbi will remain way inferior to the Geddon, as it’s difficult not to see the performance gain: even with T1 weapons, a Geddon provides “more” in most cases…

Minmatar have way fewer gank-oriented ships than those found in the Amarrian arsenal: HASes are too fragile to move into their weapons' optimal and tho the Typhoon can be built up to an extremely powerful roaming BS, it’s way more skill intensive than a Geddon – price aside when you are counting in nano-fits etc.
That leaves the Hurricane as the best out of a few viable options for a pretty capable, yet relatively cheap after insurance flying machines. That’s how it’s used most of the times: in roaming small-to-med sized, single-digit-member ganks/packs (even solo), that go into enemy territory for some fun, knowing that they will probably return home in their pods – or even worse.


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