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blankseplocked The novel is canon, right?
 
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Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2008.10.15 21:27:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Stitcher

For "Tomorrow, a Dream", we can assume that the chronicle is the Caldari take on things. The Gallente would likely interpret it as the formation of a dangerous meritocracy, something quite at odds with Federal ideals of self-determination.


I'm not so sure that meritocracy and self-determination (insofar as its the idea that you get where you are by the virtue of your work and ambitions) are opposites.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.15 22:42:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 15/10/2008 22:43:12

Originally by: Stitcher
Can't you just decide that for yourself? I really don't see how it's that difficult to decide which bits of a given chronicle to use, regardless of format.

Honestly, I'd find a little "RP Code" at the top of the chron to be somewhat patronising. We're all intelligent men and women here, surely we're able to survive without being spoon-fed an itemized list of what is IC knowledge and what isn't by CCP?



Do you find The Crystal Boulevard patronizing? How about Dam'Torsad? They have exactly the sort of sourcing I am after. Basically something to tell me if my character has access to this and to tell me where it fits into the IC scheme of things.

Quote:

Hell, a lot of the existing RP knowledge was made up by players anyway. The (loose) framework of rules that allow a players to write Caldanese were all player inventions, as are such things as Intaki plum brandy, a goodly chunk of the Scriptures, the specifics of the Achur faith and pretty much 100% of Naqam's angle.


And how does having chronicles that exist IC prevent things like these? Though you are wrong on the scriptures being player made. Unless you include Revan's stuff.

Quote:

Point is, we're perfectly at liberty to be flexible in our interpretation of the PF. Why would we want CCP to spell it out for us?



I don't want them to spell it out for us. I just want a name of author, or a place of author, or a name of an anthology, or the statement that this is a transcript of a conversation/a piece of IC fiction/ an IC non-fiction book,ect ect, a piece of scripture. Whatever really, just so long as it exists in the universe of EVE and can be interacted with as a part of EVE.

Quote:

For "Tomorrow, a Dream", we can assume that the chronicle is the Caldari take on things. The Gallente would likely interpret it as the formation of a dangerous meritocracy, something quite at odds with Federal ideals of self-determination.


This is too simplistic. Yes, it looks like a caldari bias, but which Caldari bias? It means something completely different if it is an Ishukone version of events rather than the Heth version of events. And as we do not have a source for it, we cannot suggest its impact even OOC, and since it doesnt exist IC we cannot reference it IC.

Basically, it can only be used in the vaguest of senses reliably, which seems silly as if it was an IC document it could spawn masses of in game/forum in character RP in which people deal directly with it rather than coming to some sort of OOC consensus and then forcing that onto the characters.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.15 23:11:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Stitcher on 15/10/2008 23:13:56

My point here was that we don't need 100% accuracy. Leave it up to each player to decide what is IC knowledge and what is not.

Arguing over the tiny tiny details is a bit... well... a bit THIS. What we're doing here is creative live fiction, for fun. Tempting as it may be to (EDIT: "d icker": obscure British slang meaning "to argue in a polite and well-meaning way over something inconsequential", which unfortunately falls foul of this forum's consistently over-zealous word filter) over the minutiae for weeks on end, I reckon that sort of thing just gets in the way of enjoying ourselves. We don't need to strive for absolute precision - we don't need to make mountains from molehills.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if your interpretation of a Chronicle differs from that of another player. Both are probably equally valid (unless it's something outrageous like claiming to have a transcript of the conversation between Heth and Oiritsu, or indeed even the knowledge that such a conversation took place.)

Find your own interpretation, run with it. Somebody else will take a slightly different interpretation. Let them run with that. Given that the universe and everything we're "doing" inside it is entirely fictional, I fail to see why any of us would want to be so utterly concerned with complete factual accuracy, when such a thing is impossible to come by even in real life (unless you're a mathematician.)

Horatius Caul
Amarr
Kitzless
Posted - 2008.10.16 00:11:00 - [94]
 

I have been part of roleplaying communities for several years, and if it's something I know disrupts the co-existence of characters it is freedom of interpretation on a player-level. The way information is presented in EVE (and most other games), there is no clear distinction of what you as a player know and what your character knows. This easily leads to different groups of roleplayers making wildly different interpretations of the source material (like what is "common knowledge"), which in turn makes it difficult for different groups of roleplayers to synch properly.

At the moment, EVE roleplay is heavily centralized, which is good for synchronizing the view of the roleplaying communities. Things are quite glitchy, however.

If all information was sourced IC, it would be infinitely more easy to facilitate roleplay. Not only would the "synch" issues be easier to smooth over, but there would be much more opportunities for conflict and discussion than there already is. As Gaven said, it also offers plenty of room for character development - after all, what version of the truth you adhere to is instrumental to your identity and cultural persona.


Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.16 01:03:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Stitcher on 16/10/2008 01:06:35
well sure, a little bit of centralization is fine. What i'm saying here is that we don't need absolute precision and synchronization of IC information.

I reckon what we have already is fine. Let's not forget that the Chronicles aren't primarily intended as an IC resource for the roleplayers. Some of them are, others are short stories, designed exclusively to entertain.

Is it really that hard to seperate IC from OOC? I don't think it is. And I certainly don't think it's difficult enough to warrant our demanding that Abraxas should limit himself exclusively to one writing style, just because it's more convenient for us. Personally, I find the diversity with which he writes allows all sorts of new and unconsidered perspectives on New Eden - I'd hate to see that creativity suffer because he was being constrained to a smaller selection of tenses and perspectives.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.16 02:13:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 16/10/2008 02:16:20


Why would making a chronicle an IC document and giving it a source limit the writing style of the author in the slightest?

That only holds true if you are also saying that there should not be IC documents designed purely to entertain.

It might limit the material the author can write about. But that would be a good thing. The recent CCP trend to explain plot developments through OOC chrons players cannot access IC is a really really bad thing. If the news picked up the story first and the chrons came later, they would be less annoying. But as is, players are suddenly knowing before the characters that a big event is happening at the very center of caldari politics.

And this entire debate about whether the novel is canon, and therefore how we can deal with the bias in it, as well as every time the novel is mentioned or referenced on IGS or in an IC channel, proves that the current system is not fine.

Avel Kereka
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.10.16 02:37:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Avel Kereka on 16/10/2008 02:37:14
It might solve the issue if all future infodumps were released as a part of a "CONCORD Encyclopedia" (sort of like the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) which is available to all pilots.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.16 02:51:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Stitcher on 16/10/2008 02:51:09
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
It might limit the material the author can write about. But that would be a good thing.


I categorically disagree. This is exactly what I was saying we have no right to expect or demand.

The chronicles exist to entertain the whole EVE playerbase, not just the roleplayers. Sure, it's nice when something comes out that gives us - the RPers - a neutral, more in-depth look at some facet of life in New Eden from which to springboard now in-character ideas... but it's a bit bloody arrogant to assume that everything Abraxas writes is for us, and to demand that he composes all the chronicles in such a way as to make life convenient for the IGS.

He's the author, they're his chronicles. As far as I'm concerned the players have no right whatsoever to demand that restrictions of any description be placed on his creative freedom.

Take the stories as stories, and the "historical documents" if you like as RP resources, and keep them nice and seperate. From the stories, little minutiae - the names of plants and drinks, modes of address, the sort of technology accessible to an ordinary Caldari, or Gallente or whatever. But don't expect every single chronicle to be an in-depth analysis of some new corner of the EVE universe because A) that's unreasonable and B) it's unrealistic.

The stories are good, they are entertaining, and I see no reason whatsoever why they should change. I mean, we've effectively received a free book of short stories over the years. That's not to be sniffed at.

Quote:
And this entire debate about whether the novel is canon, and therefore how we can deal with the bias in it, as well as every time the novel is mentioned or referenced on IGS or in an IC channel, proves that the current system is not fine.


Bearing in mind that I remain unconvinced that there IS any of this so-called "bias" in the novel... would you care to qualify that statement?

How exactly does it prove anything other than the fact that people will happily wade into a visceral argument over something of negligible importance, and make up their own "facts" and "proof" as they go?

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.16 03:37:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 16/10/2008 03:38:38
Quote:
But don't expect every single chronicle to be an in-depth analysis of some new corner of the EVE universe because A) that's unreasonable and B) it's unrealistic.


I am not asking for this, I have never asked for this. There is nothing wrong with creative chronicles. There is also NO REASON that they need to be OOC. All I am asking is that the creative stories and such be written in a way that they exist IC so that the RPers can play with them too.

On the other point: Are you seriously saying its a good thing that CCP is now making its plot developments happen in OOC access only stories? That the chronicles telling the "what really happened" that come out before the news stories and IC information that we have been seeing are a good thing? Because, it has certainly killed what could have been a great deal of interesting RP as people wonder about what is going on in the hierarchy of the state. Instead, we know what happens, and that RP does not happen.

The result: EVE becomes more flat and less immersive.

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2008.10.16 08:58:00 - [100]
 

Im not sure I really see this idea fully. For example, the whole black rise work by Hjalti, this would simply become a "book" written by an author within EVE?


Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.16 12:29:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
On the other point: Are you seriously saying its a good thing that CCP is now making its plot developments happen in OOC access only stories?


Uhm.... yes.

What's stopping us from just ignoring the "unknowable" stuff in the stories? Why is it so difficult?

Take the case of Janus Bravour. We know OOC that he's dead. IC, the official statement (per the news items) is that he's on "indefinite sick leave". The cynical and realistic are certain that means "dead". Others take it at face value.

In the meantime, we're getting a lot of very entertaining, very well-written short stories, for free. I see no reason to complain.

Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2008.10.16 13:21:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: CCP Ginger
Im not sure I really see this idea fully. For example, the whole black rise work by Hjalti, this would simply become a "book" written by an author within EVE?




That's the general idea as I gather it, but I haven't read the Black Mountian chrons so I've no idea how sutable they are for such a thing. Examples of this that do exist are the Cold Wind and Crystal Boulavard chronicles. I wouldn't go so far as to say that all of the chrons can or should have this done for them.

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2008.10.16 16:46:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Faraelle Brightman
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Im not sure I really see this idea fully. For example, the whole black rise work by Hjalti, this would simply become a "book" written by an author within EVE?




That's the general idea as I gather it, but I haven't read the Black Mountian chrons so I've no idea how sutable they are for such a thing. Examples of this that do exist are the Cold Wind and Crystal Boulavard chronicles. I wouldn't go so far as to say that all of the chrons can or should have this done for them.


Well, you see, then you go from "this is a story that happened in the EVE universe" to "this is what some dude in the EVE universe wrote".

People like to read (at least I do) stories that happen within our universe, what goes on behind the scenes and insights into the day to day lives of people. It makes the universe feel more alive to me to read about what happens within it.

Maybe im getting the wrong end of the stick here.

Avel Kereka
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.10.16 19:11:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Avel Kereka on 17/10/2008 19:30:55
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Well, you see, then you go from "this is a story that happened in the EVE universe" to "this is what some dude in the EVE universe wrote".

That's actually a very crucial point... a story like "Wild Earth" wouldn't be possible as an IC story since it's not knowledge pilots are supposed to have. That being said, I think the majority of the chrons should be available IC with the occasional non-IC one looking into the dark corners (which are interesting, but useless for RP).

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.16 19:46:00 - [105]
 

I would not call them useless. Sure, you cannot use the material in a direct way, but in an indirect way it is possible.

For example, one of your character might visit a garden that was created by Hatakan Oiritsuu and wonder about how the plants are arranged. Also the stories give insight into the mindset of those leading the NPC factions and would certainly influence those that work under them.

A Mission Agent a capsuleer has to deal with regulary might act like a miniature Tibus Heth for example.Smile

Silver Night
Caldari
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2008.10.16 22:27:00 - [106]
 

I think both approaches have value. If you are looking at it from the point of view of 'What has direct value to RP' obviously things need to be IC accessible. Dam Torsad is ideal because it has a plain bias but is still informative. It is easy to change the slant because the slant in that article is so obvious.

At the same time, if you want things that give you, as a player, a feel for Eve and satisfy some curiosity about what goes on behind the scenes then fiction that is not accessible is still valuable. It isn't all about what is useful to RP.

I think some of both is ideal really. Especially things like this chronicle, which though it doesn't give you direct insight into anything IC, can still be used to give you an idea about the people in power. There might be dark rumors about the weird stuff the KK CEO does in her garden, for example.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.16 23:45:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 16/10/2008 23:45:17
Originally by: CCP Ginger


Well, you see, then you go from "this is a story that happened in the EVE universe" to "this is what some dude in the EVE universe wrote".



How does the first make universe feel more alive than the second?

Surely Abraxes is capable of writing just as interesting stories about what happens in the EVE universe if they are from in character sources as he can now.

And would a universe more populated with things that characters can directly interact with not be a universe that is more alive than one where things happen in the background and the characters never hear about them?

One of the larger problems with takeing the short stories and the novel as "fact" OOC is that they are written as befits the medium of short stories and novels. This is a problem I have been trying to think a way around since Theodicy. Basically: How do you write interesting stories in the EVE universe that have characters people like and dislike ect, and still keep the shades of grey that are quite possibly the strongest feature of the EVE universe?

The most recent abraxes chronicle has a dark twist at the end to make it a better story to read. It is full of imagery that frankly would not exist in a real transcript of that conversation. Most of the story chronicles have things like this. And if the goal is to make them an interesting story to read, they should have these elements.

But, if we could change them to be prose stories that exist within the universe of EVE, the imagery and plot twists and simplified characters that make them ring false as accurate accountings of the events would be features rather than bugs.

Instead of being things that we have to somehow come to terms with OOC, they become things that we have to come to terms with IC.

The result: In a stroke you kill the problems on IGS where people know the events of the chronicles they do not have access to.

And Stitcher, I asked this, "What's stopping us from just ignoring the "unknowable" stuff in the stories? Why is it so difficult?" for 3 years. It resulted in many arguments with people OOC over what could and could not be used in roleplay. Sometimes a consensus came about, most of the time it did not. The failure of people to keep what they know IC from what they know OOC as characters is writ large over the entire history of the IGS and of the various RP channels in game.

Then I realised that it was futile. The problem was not the players, but the presentation. People will keep RPing that they know things they cannot know as long as there were things available that their characters cannot know.

Yet, the answer that things like the stories need to go would be a horrible decision.

As Ginger pointed out, people like to read them. So what I am proposing is that it is possible to have our cake and eat it too here. It should be possible to both give the people who want to roleplay their characters more material to immerse themselves in the world of EVE, as well as a more impressive world to immerse themselves in, and at the same time keep the chronicles written in more exiting styles.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.17 00:43:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
And Stitcher, I asked this, "What's stopping us from just ignoring the "unknowable" stuff in the stories? Why is it so difficult?" for 3 years. It resulted in many arguments with people OOC over what could and could not be used in roleplay. Sometimes a consensus came about, most of the time it did not. The failure of people to keep what they know IC from what they know OOC as characters is writ large over the entire history of the IGS and of the various RP channels in game.

Then I realised that it was futile. The problem was not the players, but the presentation. People will keep RPing that they know things they cannot know as long as there were things available that their characters cannot know.


People will roleplay all SORTS of stupid s**t, regardless of whether or not you exclusively spoon-feed them nothing but "knowable information". It is not the fault of the presenter - some people are just stupid.

You know: The "I don't use pods, I have a skin-tight suit that does the exact same thing" brigade. The "My character was a slave, and was tortured to death and cloned more than four hundred times before his escape." guys. The "I have a ship that can warp at 14,000 AU/s, Maleatu Shakor's private comm line, and a lightsaber" crew.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that can be done to stop people from pulling out something that is totally pants-on-head reta... uh... "special". Even if you restrict all of the information available to them to stuff that would only be knowable IC, somebody, somewhere, will decide that they have a better idea, or that the PF just doesnt work for them and that they'd rather do something different. You can't stop them, you can't compensate for them, and you can't predict them.

What you CAN do is ignore them. And take it from someone who knows - sometimes the best thing a games designer can do for their fan base is ignore them.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.17 00:59:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 17/10/2008 01:06:36
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 17/10/2008 01:02:55

Many of the people who have been confused from time to time by the current jumbled state of the canon material are not idiots in the slightest. And even if they were, if the chrons existed IC those opinions could be directly refuted without having to go into an OOC mode, non-immersive, side discussion.

The people talking about lightsabers would not be affected, they would still get the "what the heck are you on" responses they already get.

What it would help would be the people who are just slightly off base in their understanding of the world. Characters could attempt to try and correct them in an entirely IC manner and the people using information from the non-accessible canon would no longer result in such a distinct break of immersion into the gameworld.

Basically, the change would be that instead of taking them aside OOC and giving them chronicle links, I could give them those same links entirely in character and immersion would be broken one less time.

Edit: Something else to consider is that the contradictions that exist between different pieces of prime fiction could actually be an advantage rather than a negative.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.17 02:00:00 - [110]
 

Quote:
What it would help would be the people who are just slightly off base in their understanding of the world. Characters could attempt to try and correct them in an entirely IC manner and the people using information from the non-accessible canon would no longer result in such a distinct break of immersion into the gameworld.


They have other players for that though - Players like yourself who are eager and ready to help them, and seem to be quite ingenious indeed at finding ways in which to say things in character, and even if you can't... oh well! OOC exists for a damn good reason, and is a great way of helping a new player integrate into the RPing community. Some players seem to view it as a "necessary evil" to be shunned at all costs except under extreme duress. I personally regard it as the natural flip-side of the RPing coin. What we're doing is playing a game, and OOC stuff is the metagame. OOC discussion allows us to establish the ground rules and behaviours that make the game more entertaining. If somebody says something that you don't think they could have known IC, just say "OOC: I don't think your character could have known that, mate, because blah blah blah. Feel free to start a thread in the Library if you disagree." and move on. It's okay, it's not going to kill the thread.

"Misinterpretation" is always going to be possible even if the person doing the misinterpreting isn't an idiot. Writing of that kind of concise and unconfusing nature is rarely entertaining, making it impractical for the Chronicles - a source of entertainment - to be written in a style that leaves no room for misinterpretation.

If a person's only slightly off base, then the community is ready, willing and able to nudge them back on track. I really fail to see why that duty should instead fall upon CCP. It's certainly not enough of a problem, nor common enough, nor indeed IMPORTANT enough to warrant the community making demands of Abraxas or any other one of CCP's writers.

Because, you know what? I think you're taking this far, FAR too seriously. The chronicles and RPing both are a frivolities - neat little bits of additonal entertainment tacked onto the game. There really is no call to be getting so irritated over something as minor as the way the chronicles might potentially cause some people to be slightly inaccurate in the way they roleplay.

"Inaccurate" how, anyway? Are we going to go off on John Gabriel rants about the tiniest, nit-picking details of a freaking FICTIONAL UNIVERSE every time somebody gets some obscure "fact" wrong? Given that the entire PF is a fictional construct, and everything within it has been made up by somebody at some point or another, it's a bit bloody nonsensical to be chastising people about getting something "wrong" when we're talking about things that only have a conceptual existence. Or indeed, to be chasing up ways to reduce the instances of it happening.

People are going to get things "wrong" every so often anyway - I see no reason to worry and bicker compulsively about it every time it happens, when we could just get on with the game.

I've seen too many games of Warhammer 40,000 devolve into blistering arguments over a fraction of an inch, or some obscure facet of the cover and movement rules, or whatever. Please, let's not do the same thing over the utterly inconsequential details of the EVE PF.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.17 04:27:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 17/10/2008 04:33:58
Quote:

Because, you know what? I think you're taking this far, FAR too seriously. The chronicles and RPing both are a frivolities - neat little bits of additonal entertainment tacked onto the game. There really is no call to be getting so irritated over something as minor as the way the chronicles might potentially cause some people to be slightly inaccurate in the way they roleplay.



First off, It is not a frivolty to me, and I do not think it is a frivolty to the people responsible for writing background material for EVE and advancing its plot.

EVE being the most dynamic game to roleplay in was the only reason I began to play EVE and it and PIE are the only reasons I continue to play. I do not think I am the only person who this is true for.

That said. I am not irritated, not in the slightest. Excited would be the better term.

I do think that what I am arguing is a way to make the game far more fun for those of us interested in Immersionism (and what it has evolved into since the term was coined by that dev blog). I also think that the negatives of doing so would be minimal. That people would most likely not notice the difference in the chronicles unless they RPed, but that for those of us who want to have as much IC interaction in EVE as possible the difference would be as between night and day.

I think the result could make the entire game feel alive in a way no other game could compete with.

CCP Ginger

Posted - 2008.10.17 08:12:00 - [112]
 

But for those that read these things, they would cease to be insights into the world of EVE and simply become, like I said, what some dude wrote.

So there would be no window into the world, just the writings of some authors and that to me is no basis on gaining a deeper understanding of a fictional world through stories that happen in that world?

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.17 10:14:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
I do think that what I am arguing is a way to make the game far more fun for those of us interested in Immersionism (and what it has evolved into since the term was coined by that dev blog). I also think that the negatives of doing so would be minimal. That people would most likely not notice the difference in the chronicles unless they RPed, but that for those of us who want to have as much IC interaction in EVE as possible the difference would be as between night and day.


People read the chronicles whether they RP or not, and a lot - I daresay the majority of players, be they RPers or not - aren't interested in immersionism to that degree: we'd rather have a good story. I roleplay because it typically results in a good story (or at least, an entertainingly bad one).

However, the substantial majority of the EVE community doesn't roleplay, beyond maybe dabbling with the In-Universe news posts. What they get out of the chronicles are stories. "Black Mountain" generated a lot of interest among non-roleplayers because it had a narrative and characters. Those people are less interested in "State factionalism" or "The cult of Tetrimon" precisely because they're geared less towards entertainment and more towards providing an RP resource.

Quote:
First off, It is not a frivolty to me, and I do not think it is a frivolty to the people responsible for writing background material for EVE and advancing its plot.


I'm sorry, mate, but your opinion here is irrelevant - roleplaying IS frivolous. There's no real need or importance to it, after all - thousands of players have plenty of fun with the game without ever speaking a single in-character line. It is unimportant, unnecessary and trivial.

As such, anything that we roleplayers receive is a gift. CCP don't need to give us the roleplaying tools that they have, or are going to (yay ambulation!) but they ARE being given to us regardless because CCP are nice people who love us very much.Wink

There's an old proverb about gift horses, and what you shouldn't do to them.

More to the point, however, you're saying "I take it seriously, I'M interested in Immersionism, CCP should make My life easier, me me me me me!" There are other people playing this game than you, mate, and I would confidently bet on it that the majority of them don't share your values, but WOULD be put out by it if the chronicles abruptly started catering exclusively to the roleplayers.

Horatius Caul
Amarr
Kitzless
Posted - 2008.10.17 10:25:00 - [114]
 

Personally, while I argue for an attempt to IC-source certain chronicles, I don't it should be done indiscriminately. The Scientific Articles have three excellent examples of In Character sourcing, The Chromeaux Memorandum of the cloning market, Department of Behavioral Studies report on Boosters and the text on Jump Gates by "Alain E. Topher".

Does the fact that these are In Character make them less valuable as sources for us players? Are they less of a window into the world of EVE?

To give a few examples of Chronicles I think could be IC-sourced:
Tomorrow A Dream
Masks of Authority
With Acknowledgments to Mad Dogs - I would love to see this one as an article in some sort of underground photo magazine.
The Speakers of Truth
The Crystal Boulevard - which already has a bit of an IC-source, but if it was revealed who the reporter was or where the story was published, that would be a perfect source.

The "story" chronicles, I don't think need to be touched. They already have IC sources through their characters, and even if player characters don't necessarily have access to the information first-hand, a lot of "common knowledge" or absence thereof can often be gleaned from them.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.17 14:54:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: CCP Ginger
But for those that read these things, they would cease to be insights into the world of EVE and simply become, like I said, what some dude wrote.

So there would be no window into the world, just the writings of some authors and that to me is no basis on gaining a deeper understanding of a fictional world through stories that happen in that world?


I actually see it as precisely opposite.

I find the story Chronicles nearly useless for providing windows into the world. Because I see the imprint of the stylistic decisions the author has made as making it very hard to actually treat the stories as unbiased windows into EVE. The foreshadowing, imagery, and plot twists that are designed to make an audience love the story are elements that we like to read, but not elements that actually occur in a real event by event account of something.

On the other hand: If we had examples of the fiction of the EVE world, I think, as well as possibly being good fiction, that it would also provide more of a window into the EVE world. Right now, EVE is fairly lifeless on that front, unless you believe that the only documents being produced are mythological/religious or politcal briefs.

How would a story written in EVE about a power figure in EVE tell you less about EVE than an OOC story about that power figure? Because I think it would tell you more.

Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.10.17 17:00:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 17/10/2008 17:00:23
Quote:

However, the substantial majority of the EVE community doesn't roleplay, beyond maybe dabbling with the In-Universe news posts. What they get out of the chronicles are stories. "Black Mountain" generated a lot of interest among non-roleplayers because it had a narrative and characters. Those people are less interested in "State factionalism" or "The cult of Tetrimon" precisely because they're geared less towards entertainment and more towards providing an RP resource.


When have I asked for more infodump chronicles?

I am not asking for more infodump chronicles, I am asking for more chronicles that exist in an IC setting and I am suggesting that there is nothing fundamentally wrong in the writing style of things like Black Mountain for this.

I am also suggesting that this would make EVE feel more alive, as we would no longer live in a world where everything written is either religious or technical in nature.

Avel Kereka
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.10.17 19:08:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Stitcher
I'm sorry, mate, but your opinion here is irrelevant - roleplaying IS frivolous. There's no real need or importance to it, after all - thousands of players have plenty of fun with the game without ever speaking a single in-character line. It is unimportant, unnecessary and trivial.

This is wildly inaccurate. Something as simple as roleplaying pro-Minmatar and fighting the Amarr affects your entire game experience. Wars are fought over RP issues, and it gives the game alot of depth it wouldn't otherwise have. Even if you don't RP on purpose, there's an old saying about EVE--everything you do in the game is roleplay to some degree. From a financial perspective, CCP wouldn't bother with all the chronicles, events etc. if RP didn't attract people to the game. Either way, RP is vital and will always be there.

Eli Bredeux
Posted - 2008.10.20 03:22:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: CCP Ginger
But for those that read these things, they would cease to be insights into the world of EVE and simply become, like I said, what some dude wrote.

So there would be no window into the world, just the writings of some authors and that to me is no basis on gaining a deeper understanding of a fictional world through stories that happen in that world?


I thoroughly disagree with this. One of the main purposes of the study of literature is to gain an insight into the world in which the piece was written. First year English Lit stuff. Why study Shakespeare if not to gain some understanding of the era - political / satirical / social or otherwise?

Since the chronicles (for the most part) don't exist within the framework of EVE it's impossible to "study" them in character (by active debate or by reference). Making that change wouldn't affect the content to a great extent (i.e. those that read them from a stand-point of EVE fiction wouldn't lose anything simply because there's a by-line and maybe a short biography at the end), but the RP availability of the information would increase significantly.

To go extreme - were TEA not written by Tony Gonzales, but instead was a novel written by "Tony Gonzales - Gallente pulp fiction writer" it would suddenly become possible to debate the various points of the novel fully in-character. Amarrian characters could regard the character of "Tony Gonzales" as a Salman Rushdie-esque character for instance; or the depiction of the Broker could be debated as a plot-device of a fictional novel, or as an exposition of a dark corner of the EVE universe.

As mentioned prior - such a change would also allow CCP Fiction to skate over any discrepancies or outright errors in any produced fiction because it would have been produced in-character, and thus any errors are the product of the fictional author - intentional or not.

It'd be an improvement on the whole without significant degradation of the existing way of things IMO.

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.10.20 11:56:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Avel Kereka
Originally by: Stitcher
I'm sorry, mate, but your opinion here is irrelevant - roleplaying IS frivolous. There's no real need or importance to it, after all - thousands of players have plenty of fun with the game without ever speaking a single in-character line. It is unimportant, unnecessary and trivial.

This is wildly inaccurate. Something as simple as roleplaying pro-Minmatar and fighting the Amarr affects your entire game experience. Wars are fought over RP issues, and it gives the game alot of depth it wouldn't otherwise have. Even if you don't RP on purpose, there's an old saying about EVE--everything you do in the game is roleplay to some degree. From a financial perspective, CCP wouldn't bother with all the chronicles, events etc. if RP didn't attract people to the game. Either way, RP is vital and will always be there.


Fair point, but my contention that roleplay is not in fact necessary in order to play the game still stands.

I'm not aware precisely what percentage of the playerbase roleplay, but I highly doubt we're in the majority. A significant minority, for certain, but ours is not the controlling interest in the game, which means that, even if the roleplayers DID all want the same thing from the chronicles (which, as you can see, we don't) we still wouldn't have any reasonable right to use the will of a minority to overrule the desires of the majority.

What's wrong with just switching off and enjoying the stories, anyway? Does everything HAVE to be an in-character resource? No, of course it doesn't.

Avel Kereka
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.10.20 21:37:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Avel Kereka on 20/10/2008 21:37:28
Originally by: Stitcher
we still wouldn't have any reasonable right to use the will of a minority to overrule the desires of the majority.

I'm not sure what you're referring to--if it's the IC debate, that's a grey area and my personal position is that we do need more IC material, if possible. If you're referring to the complaints about one-sidedness in the recent PF, I'm afraid those who don't think there's a problem are in the minority.


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