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blankseplocked [Issue] CSM members banned in forum/game = immediate removal from CSM.
 
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Gramtar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.09 19:55:00 - [151]
 

Voting No on this one.

Forum bans are a joke since they are completely arbitrary. Even for in-game actions, EVE is well known for banning first and asking questions later. CCP then take weeks to do the investigation which some other MMOs do before banning someone.

CSM membership shouldn't be voted on by the other CSMs in any circumstance. If someone does something so horrible they should be removed from the council, I have confidence CCP will act to do so.

Virtuality
Minmatar
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.09 20:01:00 - [152]
 

yeah maybe if the mods weren't idiots and bans weren't completely arbitrary

Breaky Uzumaki
Caldari
Spleen Merchant
Posted - 2008.10.09 20:52:00 - [153]
 

And thus the Jade Constantine legacy is further stamped with its signature trait of using the chair to try to push unpopular pet projects and eliminate members of the council that do not agree.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.09 20:56:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki
And thus the Jade Constantine legacy is further stamped with its signature trait of using the chair to try to push unpopular pet projects and eliminate members of the council that do not agree.


Has anybody yet noticed that this thread was started by Serenity Steele, not Jade Constantine? I mean, I know they tend to be allies on the Council, but they are two different people.

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.09 21:01:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

Has anybody yet noticed that this thread was started by Serenity Steele, not Jade Constantine? I mean, I know they tend to be allies on the Council, but they are two different people.


Anyone who read the OP did. I'm guessing they believe the two are in cahoots as they are buddies. Much like if Bane brought forward something I would be painted under its brush stroke.

Machine Delta
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.09 21:02:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Breaky Uzumaki
And thus the Jade Constantine legacy is further stamped with its signature trait of using the chair to try to push unpopular pet projects and eliminate members of the council that do not agree.


Has anybody yet noticed that this thread was started by Serenity Steele, not Jade Constantine? I mean, I know they tend to be allies on the Council, but they are two different people.


You think Jade isn't pushing this issue? Who has the most posts in this thread?

Fivefold Forgefire
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.09 21:07:00 - [157]
 

This is a ridiculous proposal, going completely against the democratic principles of the CSM.

As elected officials, CSM members should only lose their mandates if they are caught violating the EULA or the CSM agreement, end of story. A "recall" is the only other acceptable possibility, even then, such a provision must be made written and should not be retroactive.

This kind of ad hoc justification for power grabs smacks of authoritarianism, and was certainly not for this kind of fruitless discussion that we put the council in its place.

Shame on whoever agrees with this, if you're willing to give up the power of your vote, you don't deserve the right to a vote in the first place.

thoth foc
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2008.10.09 21:10:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: KIAEddZ

How does your ability to refrain from breaking forum rules directly effect your ability to shape the game into something that is better than it currently is.



Just to be clear, if a character is banned, the character cant post here?

You are asking, does your ability to interact(as specified by CCP) with the community you represent, directly effect your ability to represent them, the CSM and CCP?

jeez..

Daddy's AlmostThere
Posted - 2008.10.09 21:23:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: thoth foc
Originally by: KIAEddZ

How does your ability to refrain from breaking forum rules directly effect your ability to shape the game into something that is better than it currently is.



Just to be clear, if a character is banned, the character cant post here?

You are asking, does your ability to interact(as specified by CCP) with the community you represent, directly effect your ability to represent them, the CSM and CCP?

jeez..


What if the character has another account and his main account gets banned? As long as they have an account associated with them, bravo. Honestly I think part of the responsibility lies of people who vote for candidates. Choose wisely for people who aren't prone to be dramakings.

This concept runs counter to what the CSM was partially formed for to be a quasi-watchdog group to questionable CCP actions. If people are afraid to speak out for fear of bans and then losing their CSM position, we're overall better off having CCP just invest the CSM money to hire new staff.

thoth foc
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2008.10.09 22:00:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Daddy's AlmostThere
Honestly I think part of the responsibility lies of people who vote for candidates. Choose wisely for people who aren't prone to be dramakings.


i disagree, everyone in responsible for their own actions

Originally by: Daddy's AlmostThere
This concept runs counter to what the CSM was partially formed for to be a quasi-watchdog group to questionable CCP actions. If people are afraid to speak out for fear of bans and then losing their CSM position, we're overall better off having CCP just invest the CSM money to hire new staff.


I would agree or disagree with removing someone depending on the reason for the ban. From what I've read this only gives the CSM the option to remove a member, it isn't automatic. This means that both the forum moderation team and a group of the players peers must agree that the behaviour was inappropriate before anything would happen.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.10.09 22:22:00 - [161]
 

No, it means one over-zealous forum moderator and a few CSM members with an axe to grind can kick a legitimately elected CSM member for potentially no reason at all.

I think we all can agree that posting something completely heinous like 2girls1cup should be banned and possibly banned from CSM for being such a douche, but you are forgeting that people get banned from the forums for small infractions and that will be exploited to UNJUSTLY kick someone out of the CSM.

I could go on and on with the holes in this topic. I mean you guys used IRC or some chat program, right? Wasn't LaVista Vista (I forget who) kicked from said chat? Shouldn't he be kicked from the CSM? What if my computer just doesn't like IE/Firefox anymore and I can't log onto the forums for 2 weeks, should I get banned from CSM?

The number of ways CSM members, forum users and CCP itself can abuse the system noted in the OP should not be taken lightly.

Also I'd like to hi5 my GS brosefs.

Daddy's AlmostThere
Posted - 2008.10.09 22:29:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Daddy''s AlmostThere on 09/10/2008 22:29:29
Originally by: thoth foc
Originally by: Daddy's AlmostThere
Honestly I think part of the responsibility lies of people who vote for candidates. Choose wisely for people who aren't prone to be dramakings.


i disagree, everyone in responsible for their own actions


Trudat honkus--I was referring to using this becoming a tool for recalling CSM candidates. If you don't take a little time to research the post history of someone and get overcome by voter's remorse, well tough. Six months is a limited time to suffer the distractions and petty power struggles this could bring.

Your CSM may be a brat or may not always behave or advocate as you would, but hey, you're just getting you indirectly pay/vote for. :)

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.09 22:43:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: thoth foc

Just to be clear, if a character is banned, the character cant post here?

You are asking, does your ability to interact(as specified by CCP) with the community you represent, directly effect your ability to represent them, the CSM and CCP?

jeez..


Posting on the eve-online forums is completely unnecessary to the function of CSM.

Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.09 22:59:00 - [164]
 

It's only not required by CSM members if they choose to not interact and discuss/evolve issues and ideas in the Jita park or Assembly hall forums.I suggest that this interaction is one of the important functions that CSM members should undertake.

The forums are where issues for the CSM meeting agenda must be posted to get requisite number of votes or CSM member support. I find it hard to follow your reasoning that posting in the forums is not needed by a CSM member....

Take care,
Arithron

wrez
Posted - 2008.10.09 22:59:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Serenity Steele
Edited by: Serenity Steele on 06/10/2008 18:13:36
I'm sure I'll need a flame resistant suit for this, however it's a pretty simply Issue;

If CSMs are banned from the forums or banned from EVE, they should be removed from the CSM immediately., gives the CSM members the right to vote on whether the banned CSM member is kicked from the CSM. One vote may be taken per forum banning. This should be the case for both Temporary and Permanent bans.

The issue I can see with this is that it provides CCP with a mechanism for removing CSM members, so it would need to be documented that the person in question has received warnings first, and notified to the whole CSM that this is occuring.

On the other hand - do you really want someone who gets banned representing you?

Note: The situation of what happens when a CSM member gets removed is already dealt with: An Alternate is raised up in their place, in order of max votes received

Vote!

Edit: Revised based on feedback: text removed text added


When the sycophants henchmen of Jade unleash their diabolical plans, the virtuous colorful knights of Goonswarm rise up to defend the innocents good, the fat, and the ugly.

Break Stuff
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:03:00 - [166]
 

Terrible idea. This is nothing more than a backhanded attempt to make the CSM team fit the ideology of a couple of representatives who are looking to water down the aspects of the game that they aren't personally involved in.

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:12:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 09/10/2008 23:15:39
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 09/10/2008 23:14:49
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 09/10/2008 23:13:35
Originally by: Arithron
It's only not required by CSM members if they choose to not interact and discuss/evolve issues and ideas in the Jita park or Assembly hall forums.I suggest that this interaction is one of the important functions that CSM members should undertake.

The forums are where issues for the CSM meeting agenda must be posted to get requisite number of votes or CSM member support. I find it hard to follow your reasoning that posting in the forums is not needed by a CSM member....

Take care,
Arithron


Incorrect. There are a lot of forums on the internet whereby you can interact with people who play eve. Many people detest these forums and the moderation of them and will avoid them. These people are voting eve players. One could make the argument that by focusing so much on these forums you're actually neglecting a large portion of the playerbase. Anyone can post a thread on the assembly hall. It does not need to be a CSM representative. I can say quite definitely from a position of experience that few others, if any, have that it has not been REQUIRED for me, in the least, to be able to post on the Eve-online.com forums. Ever.

:edit: Actually it is required that you not be banned to submit your passport for candidacy. That may or may not be intentional. If you're someone like me you can simply ignore the forums until it comes time to submit your passport, as eventually someone's report clicking will stick.

Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:17:00 - [168]
 

Actually, issues and ideas posted on other forums, AFAIK, aren't binding on the CSM and can't be put onto an agenda unless first posted in the Assembly Hall for 7 days, and then getting a CSM support (posted) or 5% of voter's approval.

However, if you feel that interaction with posters on issues and ideas in the Assembly hall (or Jita park) is not needed as a Player representative on the CSM, fair enough.

We just have obviously diametrically-opposed viewpoints on what CSM members should be doing...

Take care,
Arithron

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:26:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Arithron
Actually, issues and ideas posted on other forums, AFAIK, aren't binding on the CSM and can't be put onto an agenda unless first posted in the Assembly Hall for 7 days, and then getting a CSM support (posted) or 5% of voter's approval.

However, if you feel that interaction with posters on issues and ideas in the Assembly hall (or Jita park) is not needed as a Player representative on the CSM, fair enough.

We just have obviously diametrically-opposed viewpoints on what CSM members should be doing...

Take care,
Arithron


Representing Eve players... I already addressed the assembly hall in that very same post.

"Representing Eve Players" and "Posting on the Eve-online.com forums" are mutually exclusive. Nevermind the slew of other issues that's already been mentioned repeatedly by myself and others in this very thread.

Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:35:00 - [170]
 

I agree that other forums are valuable for CSM members to garner player opinions and the like. However, I must have read your post above before editing...I took it to mean that you didn't think it was needed for a CSM member to interact and post on issues in the Assembly hall at all (despite this being the place that issues must be posted to gather support).

If this isn't what you meant, accept my apologies.

I can see clearly that you are now posting on the forums on eve-o...

Take care,
Arithron

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:42:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Arithron
I agree that other forums are valuable for CSM members to garner player opinions and the like. However, I must have read your post above before editing...I took it to mean that you didn't think it was needed for a CSM member to interact and post on issues in the Assembly hall at all (despite this being the place that issues must be posted to gather support).

If this isn't what you meant, accept my apologies.

I can see clearly that you are now posting on the forums on eve-o...

Take care,
Arithron



Haha touche'! The thing being that I'm posting here out of choice. Not out of necessity. I go very long periods of time without even reading these forums.

Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:49:00 - [172]
 

You should post here more often! Many of your ideas are interesting and show effort and prior thought. In the very least they get discussion going and other player's views and input.

I look forward to working with you on the CSM! (hopefully not from the position of alternate again)

Take care,
Arithron

thoth foc
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2008.10.09 23:56:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Darius JOHNSON

Representing Eve players... I already addressed the assembly hall in that very same post.

"Representing Eve Players" and "Posting on the Eve-online.com forums" are mutually exclusive. Nevermind the slew of other issues that's already been mentioned repeatedly by myself and others in this very thread.


What would you suggest as an alternative? I am very much in favour of a CSM member being removed if they step outside the rules, in a derogatory or detrimental fashion to individuals and/or the community. And to echo Gramtar's sentiment, i believe CCP wouldnt allow someone to be evicted from the council unjustly.


Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.10 00:03:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 10/10/2008 00:04:33
Originally by: thoth foc

What would you suggest as an alternative? I am very much in favour of a CSM member being removed if they step outside the rules, in a derogatory or detrimental fashion to individuals and/or the community. And to echo Gramtar's sentiment, i believe CCP wouldnt allow someone to be evicted from the council unjustly.




As an alternative to what? Posting on the Eve forums? Posting on another forum? ANY other forum? Email? Evemail (When Fixed). Talking in game? There are a slew of alternatives to using the Eve-online.com forums when it comes to communicating with people who play Eve.

re: CCP allowing it... That would need to be addressed internally by CCP. This isn't a thread recommending that CCP be able to intervene and save a CSM member. It's not a thread saying that CCP should be able to remove CSM members. It's a thread requesting that via some magical against-CCP-policies mechanism the CSM discover when a member has been temp banned so that they can then decide to vote them out of the council, based on circumstances for which the representative will have not real ability to defend themselves. It's a thread requesting that the CCP moderation team, which has deemed itself beyond the purview of the CSM in ANY way, be in the position of deciding not just who can post on their awfully moderated forums, but also who can serve as a representative. That's just plain silly.

thoth foc
Arcane Technologies
The Five
Posted - 2008.10.10 00:38:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: thoth foc on 10/10/2008 00:48:39
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON

re: CCP allowing it... That would need to be addressed internally by CCP. This isn't a thread recommending that CCP be able to intervene and save a CSM member. It's not a thread saying that CCP should be able to remove CSM members. It's a thread requesting that via some magical against-CCP-policies mechanism the CSM discover when a member has been temp banned so that they can then decide to vote them out of the council, based on circumstances for which the representative will have not real ability to defend themselves. It's a thread requesting that the CCP moderation team, which has deemed itself beyond the purview of the CSM in ANY way, be in the position of deciding not just who can post on their awfully moderated forums, but also who can serve as a representative. That's just plain silly.


A some what theatrical representation Razz some of which i would actually agree with, unfortunately it's the parts you seem to be deliberately ignoring that would swing my support for the the issue.

Within reason, i wouldnt be in favour of removal of a player representative based on constructive interaction with CCP, i would be in favour of the option of removing a representative who cant interact with other members of the community on E-O within the guidelines given by CCP.

This suggestion so far is the best to this ends, so i'll ask again, do you have a better alternative?

Ioan Metorsky
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.10 01:20:00 - [176]
 

The players elect the CSM representatives, and the players should be the only ones with the power to remove a CSM representative. CCP should have no power to remove CSM reps, because that would completely compromise the entity's independence and ability to provide input without fear of CCP shutting off lines of communication by banning a CSM rep.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.10.10 01:36:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: thoth foc

A some what theatrical representation Razz some of which i would actually agree with, unfortunately it's the parts you seem to be deliberately ignoring that would swing my support for the the issue.

Within reason, i wouldnt be in favour of removal of a player representative based on constructive interaction with CCP, i would be in favour of the option of removing a representative who cant interact with other members of the community on E-O within the guidelines given by CCP.

This suggestion so far is the best to this ends, so i'll ask again, do you have a better alternative?



What is he ignoring?

Why is a forum banned representative a problem?

These questions have still not been answered.

Machine Delta
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.10.10 02:40:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: thoth foc
Edited by: thoth foc on 10/10/2008 00:48:39
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON

re: CCP allowing it... That would need to be addressed internally by CCP. This isn't a thread recommending that CCP be able to intervene and save a CSM member. It's not a thread saying that CCP should be able to remove CSM members. It's a thread requesting that via some magical against-CCP-policies mechanism the CSM discover when a member has been temp banned so that they can then decide to vote them out of the council, based on circumstances for which the representative will have not real ability to defend themselves. It's a thread requesting that the CCP moderation team, which has deemed itself beyond the purview of the CSM in ANY way, be in the position of deciding not just who can post on their awfully moderated forums, but also who can serve as a representative. That's just plain silly.


A some what theatrical representation Razz some of which i would actually agree with, unfortunately it's the parts you seem to be deliberately ignoring that would swing my support for the the issue.

Within reason, i wouldnt be in favour of removal of a player representative based on constructive interaction with CCP, i would be in favour of the option of removing a representative who cant interact with other members of the community on E-O within the guidelines given by CCP.

This suggestion so far is the best to this ends, so i'll ask again, do you have a better alternative?




How bout the alternative is not changing something that works as-is?

Jack Gates
Gallente
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2008.10.10 02:41:00 - [179]
 

I'm not sure I understand why a temp ban on the eve-o fora -which are wholly separate from the game itself- should warrant removal from the CSM. Your idea is beyond idiotic.

Cannibal PLT
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.10.10 05:21:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: thoth foc
This suggestion so far is the best to this ends, so i'll ask again, do you have a better alternative?

A better alternative is nothing. If it 'aint broke, don't fix it.
Originally by: Goumindong
Why is a forum banned representative a problem?

These questions have still not been answered.


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