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Basic Miner
Caldari Navy II
Posted - 2008.10.05 05:28:00 - [31]
 

Yes, give better invented BPC, or start reseeding t2 bpos.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2008.10.05 05:47:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff
Quote:

Pre-Invention whine: T2 BPO owners are a cartel! They are selling at unnaturally high prices! Something must be done.

Post-Invention whine: T2 BPO owners are a cartel! They are selling at unnaturally low prices! Something must be done.


This is perfect.


Got it in one. Well spoken, well said.



Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2008.10.05 09:02:00 - [33]
 

There's another aspect to all this: the BPOs themselves have acquired cult status and a lot of them are ridiculously over-valued, in many cases to the point where you'd get a better return on your investment from putting the isk in EBANK or doing any number of other things instead.

It hardly seems fair, to a lot of people, that someone should arbitrarily have obtained something so valuable, with no chance of anyone else ever getting one the same way again.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2008.10.05 09:17:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Misanth on 05/10/2008 09:17:40
Originally by: Korizan
Actually it is not the BPO's that are the problem.

I will admit a T2 BPO holder can undercut a invention builder.
BUT

THere are NOT enough T2 BPO builders out there to keep up with demand.
Has everyone forgot the waiting lists and just searching for certain T2 ships ?
The prices were high because they held the monopoly.

Now comes invention.
T2 floods the market and prices go through the floor.
T2 now has as much competition as T1 and look @ the profit margins in T1 items.

THe T2 BPO holders production amounts did NOT go up they can't produce any more then they could before so were are all the items coming from ? Invention.

And as far as the T2 BPO holders ?
Well I can't see them being happy about all there profits going down either.

THere really is no mystery here , simple supply and demand.
And right now T2 items are now just like T1 items they are exceeding demands and prices have dropped.


What he said.

Just to verify my own point; I don't own t2 BPO's, and I don't want them removed out of the game either. Having them as 'endgame' for industrialists would be awsome as well. Now, put that in perspective what the guy wrote above, and you remember the 20mil+ modules, the 75mil+ cov ops cloak, the alliances/corporations monopolizing a certain market, etc.

It's all down to supply and demand, as he said above. The system pre-invention wasn't ideal. The system post-invention isn't ideal. It's hard to break a balance, but in my eyes, it's better now than it used to be. (i.e. t2 BPO's are still very useful/valuable, while the market isn't going bananas for t2 items)

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2008.10.05 09:35:00 - [35]
 

Point is that once T2 bpo of some item is distributed in game no one can get a new one, ever.

There is no real game mechanics which would make it more risky to build t2 stuff out of bpo once you get one. You just stuff it into some npc station and go ahead with building. No one can really steal it from you or destroy your production facility with the bpo. Sure there's very (very) small chance that if you're stupid enough and put it on POS or corp hangar...

Invention surely made it more fair, but t2 bpo's are still unfair as they are. You just happened to be there once they were distributed and got lucky in lottery... Now if those bpo's could be actually destroyed, like you could only use them in your pos in 0.0 etc... :/ Those items are certainly not relics... Comparing t2 bpo to silver magnate isn't really good example. Ship can be destroyed if used...




Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.10.05 09:37:00 - [36]
 

In terms of volume I very much doubt that BPO's have much of an effect on the market, they are just an easy target for producers who didn't think invention through very much.
It was obvious from the start that invention would pretty much make T2 industry the same as T1 industry. As profit is only the value the producer puts on their time and effort, margins were always going to drop to a similar level.
When T2 supply was very limited prices were inflated - not just by the producers, but also by reselling. However, when volumes increased to the kind we see today, large scale market control through reselling became almost impossible, and probably too risky financially to be worth the effort.

Sure T2 BPO producers might make a bit of a premium for anything the sell on they open market, but volumes are low and restricted.
Also, lots of BPO's are in alliance hands anyway and the stuff they produce never gets to the open market.

The problem is that T2 inventors want to feel like BPO owners did, rather than face the pressures of the open market. But seriously, what did they think invention was going to lead to? Higher volumes of super profitable items? If so, they are hardly the sort of people who should be pointing out flaws in any economic system.

(no, I don't own any of them either, before you start comming at me with pitchforks!)

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2008.10.05 09:49:00 - [37]
 

Fair points, Avon.

There's always layers/dimensions and aspects of economy, if we take the example you bring up about non-producers speculating in the t2 module industry - I think some people forget that also affected the t1 industry as well.

I personally bought my first battleship with isk I earned from buying and reselling t2 modules, have to admit that. The second bs was bought with high meta t1 modules from ratting. I got a bunch of named t1 modules that then (2006) was selling for closer to 20mil each.

I'll stop here before it goes offtopic, but your point about the t2 market inflation partially being because of buying/reselling is a fair point that is worth mentioning.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2008.10.05 09:53:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Avon
The problem is that T2 inventors want to feel like BPO owners did, rather than face the pressures of the open market. But seriously, what did they think invention was going to lead to? Higher volumes of super profitable items? If so, they are hardly the sort of people who should be pointing out flaws in any economic system.


There was a brief transitional period before margins subsided to their current levels, when invention was just beginning to supplant T2 BPOs as the chief means of production. I enjoyed it while it lasted, as I knew it would eventually end, and became considerably richer by it. Latter-day inventors will never experience anything like it. This is yet another minor unfairness stemming from the BPO lottery.

shady trader
Posted - 2008.10.05 10:05:00 - [39]
 

Invention does need to be improved so that they the BPC produce compare better to the BPO's that exist. However has people have said some tech2 inventors and produces are selling below cost as they are getting either datacores or minerals free. In some ways Tech2 production has become to easy to do and we have the tech1 market problem.

The only way I can see to resolve the tech2 invention issues is introduce more high level skills that allow the production of better prints (me0) so that its not something people just keep an alt for.

Also I think something needs to be done about free datacores, either only give them then missions are completed or some other price has to be paid. This way its a little harder to farm them with alts. This would mean that the datacore rates would have to be ajusted to keep things in balance.


I do own a tech2 mining crystal BPO (not for sale), currently the demand is well below production level and as a result it has only been used for myself. Infact the prices are below minerial levels when I have checked the market.
my main is trained in almost all the invention related skills but has not started to carry out invention yet.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.10.05 10:18:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: shady trader
However has people have said some tech2 inventors and produces are selling below cost as they are getting either datacores or minerals free.
Close, but not quite. What was said is that some inventors and producers think they're getting the cores and minerals for free, when in fact they do not.
Quote:
Also I think something needs to be done about free datacores, either only give them then missions are completed or some other price has to be paid.
There is nothing that can be done: they aren't free already. The problem exists in the minds of the players who fail to accurately calculate their production costs, and there's very litte – mechanics-wise — that can be done about that.

Reckless Hope
Omega Enterprises
Posted - 2008.10.05 10:29:00 - [41]
 

i think tech2 items should have had bpos, and the tech3 (it is coming we all know) should have been invention.

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2008.10.05 11:25:00 - [42]
 

The idea is that T2 BPOs present an unfair advantage to their holders.

An advantage because by now, all T2 BPOs aught to have been researched up to perfect values, and will therefore under cut any producer.
Unfair because they were gained through a lottery (in which I took part but was unsuccessful) but are now no longer available. How unfair this is depends on your point of view, but clearly, they do not present 'a level playing field' for newer players. This is especially relevant to new corps/alliances trying to compete with older corps/alliances with T2 BPOs.

Invention was intended as a replacement of the T2 BPO lottery. If you don't believe me, read the dev blogs at the time. However, CCP was unsure if it would work, so they maintained the T2 BPOs as a backup. Currently however, invention has been shown to work fine, and T2 BPOs are no longer needed as backup.

Who holds T2 BPOs? Mostly very wealthy individuals, very luck old individuals, but mostly established corps. The first two classes still make a lot of Isk from them, the latter use them for their corps only. Depending on your view, this is unfair.

Personally, I don't think T2 BPOs are needed any more, and replacing them with max-run BPCs will gain a limited advantage from them while they last, but will eventually provide a level playing field in T2 production for all.

For those who paid a lot of Isk for T2 BPOs I have little sympathy, they have had plenty of time to make that Isk back, and if not, they've invested poorly and should feel the market's punishment. The reaction to this would probably be a rise in T2 produce, but I think this would actually be a good thing, as I think T2 produce is too available at the moment.

I think CCP hasn't done so already because they fear the epic whinage that such an action will result in, particularly because it will come from their older customers. I find this standpoint rather weak.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.05 11:53:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Avon
The problem is that T2 inventors want to feel like BPO owners did, rather than face the pressures of the open market. But seriously, what did they think invention was going to lead to? Higher volumes of super profitable items? If so, they are hardly the sort of people who should be pointing out flaws in any economic system.


There was a brief transitional period before margins subsided to their current levels, when invention was just beginning to supplant T2 BPOs as the chief means of production. I enjoyed it while it lasted, as I knew it would eventually end, and became considerably richer by it. Latter-day inventors will never experience anything like it. This is yet another minor unfairness stemming from the BPO lottery.


Strange chain of thought. The brief period was due to the prices adjusting to invention production and the overabundance of inventors, so what have it has to do with the lottery? It was dependent from a class of items going from rare to common.

It happened the same with the introduction of the tier 3 BS and tier 2 BC. The first ships were sold at a large premium, then the price dropped as soon as they did become common. The first hyperion was sold at a billion, now it sell at 100 millions.


Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2008.10.05 11:59:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Avon
In terms of volume I very much doubt that BPO's have much of an effect on the market, they are just an easy target for producers who didn't think invention through very much.
It was obvious from the start that invention would pretty much make T2 industry the same as T1 industry. As profit is only the value the producer puts on their time and effort, margins were always going to drop to a similar level.
When T2 supply was very limited prices were inflated - not just by the producers, but also by reselling. However, when volumes increased to the kind we see today, large scale market control through reselling became almost impossible, and probably too risky financially to be worth the effort.

Sure T2 BPO producers might make a bit of a premium for anything the sell on they open market, but volumes are low and restricted.
Also, lots of BPO's are in alliance hands anyway and the stuff they produce never gets to the open market.

The problem is that T2 inventors want to feel like BPO owners did, rather than face the pressures of the open market. But seriously, what did they think invention was going to lead to? Higher volumes of super profitable items? If so, they are hardly the sort of people who should be pointing out flaws in any economic system.

(no, I don't own any of them either, before you start comming at me with pitchforks!)


You don't know the volume on the open market from T2 BPO production, and neither can I. There is no logical reason why they should be low and restricted. But I don't think it matters either way. The question is whether T2 BPOs constitute an unfair advantage. How big that advantage is, is inconsequential. It's enough that it is there.

I think it's clear that they do constitute an advantage, as with a T2 BPO you can produce the same for less resources. The idea that this is used to (consistently) undercut the opposition is improbable. Basic capitalism teaches us that you always charge as much as the market can bear. So instead of undercutting, the T2 BPO owner will match current prices and simply gain more profit. Why would they act otherwise? (They could take a cut on profit to sell more often, or faster, but in the current buyers market, there really is no compelling reason to do so.)

And the fact that a holder of a T2 BPO can always make more profit than an investor constitutes an unfair advantage. Although the price fixing from cartels on the T2 market is now a thing of the past, T2 BPO owners still make more profit than they would in a fair and efficient market.

You state that you don't have T2 BPOs. That's probably true, but then, you don't need to. It is well know that BoB (your alliance) holds an extensive library of T2 BPOs, which are used to make T2 ships and modules for the whole alliance. BoB can do this at lesser cost than alliances that do not have T2 BPOs. So, even without those ships and modules reaching the open market, BoB has an unfair advantage compared to an alliance that has to go through invention for it's T2 ships and modules. I would argue that, while you don't have T2 BPOs of your own, you still reap the benefits of them being around in your alliance. Clearly, you have a vested interest in keeping it that way.

In my view, T2 BPOs provide an unfair advantage to a number of players, who just happened to be very lucky. They, and subsequent owners of T2 BPOs had their chance to reap the benefits from those circumstances. There is no compelling reason why this should continue indefinitely. T2 BPOs can be replaced by max-run BPCs without damage to the EVE economy. I think they should.

Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:03:00 - [45]
 

having a t2bpo = monopoly + free isk

thats it. I am for one saying make em all copies

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:05:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: shady trader

Also I think something needs to be done about free datacores, either only give them then missions are completed or some other price has to be paid. This way its a little harder to farm them with alts. This would mean that the datacore rates would have to be ajusted to keep things in balance.



They are not free. They are the return from an investment in isk (skill brought, implant brought if the character is an alt, time spent rising the standing with low return missions instead of doing more isk rewarding missions) and time (again doing the mission for the standing, training time for the skills). Fully training a alt require 3 months and more than 100 millions.

They require little maintenance effort, simply not dropping the standing with the relevant faction below -2 and some trip to recover the datacores, but that is the exact reason why the return in producing datacores now is low. A character with level 5 in the relevant science field (and getting it to 5 is another month of training beside the 3 months above) will get about 3 millions day if he has 5 level 4 agents (and that require standing with 2 different corporations generally). Nice but not earth staggering. It is the equivalent of 4 hours of mission running every month.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:08:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane

An advantage because by now, all T2 BPOs aught to have been researched up to perfect values



LaughingLaughingLaughing

Look the time and skill requirements before doing a statement like that.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:12:00 - [48]
 

My one and only gripe with them is they do not fit into any sensible industrial goal.

There's *zero* reason for someone to purchase a T2 BPO for purely industrial reasons, in fact the only reason I ever hear that makes sense is "I have lots of ISK and nothing better to do for it", which in itself is an admission that they are only bought when money is no object, or in other words "When ISK is an issue, I won't buy a T2 BPO".

The fact that people buy these for *stupid* amounts of ISK "as an investment" compounds the issue because it prevents the development of new content for EVE. Simply put because if something *better* than T2 comes out which is manufacturable, it'll likely devalue the T2 BPO immensely, causing a torrent of whines from people who *stupidly* invested large amounts of money into these things.


The tl;dr version: I don't like T2 BPO's because their current implementation ****s with the development of new industrial content and long-term goals.

Jealousy and resentment? Psht. Only reason I'd buy a T2 BPO is to utilise the 'trash it' option, because there's far better ways to make ISK.

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:18:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Originally by: Avon
The problem is that T2 inventors want to feel like BPO owners did, rather than face the pressures of the open market. But seriously, what did they think invention was going to lead to? Higher volumes of super profitable items? If so, they are hardly the sort of people who should be pointing out flaws in any economic system.


There was a brief transitional period before margins subsided to their current levels, when invention was just beginning to supplant T2 BPOs as the chief means of production. I enjoyed it while it lasted, as I knew it would eventually end, and became considerably richer by it. Latter-day inventors will never experience anything like it. This is yet another minor unfairness stemming from the BPO lottery.


Strange chain of thought. The brief period was due to the prices adjusting to invention production and the overabundance of inventors, so what have it has to do with the lottery? It was dependent from a class of items going from rare to common.

It happened the same with the introduction of the tier 3 BS and tier 2 BC. The first ships were sold at a large premium, then the price dropped as soon as they did become common. The first hyperion was sold at a billion, now it sell at 100 millions.



Not necessarily a reaction to the above, but I was thinking about what would be the effect on the market if T2 BPOs would fall away.

Again, you would have a period of market instability, but the duration of that period, and the scale of the fluctuation in prices, would depend on the volume of T2 products produced through T2 BPOs.

You could argue that T2 BPOs depress prices on the market, if only by slight undercutting of inventor prices to move goods, or move more goods. As such, if the volume of T2 BPO produced goods where high, eventually the market would solidify on a high price point for most goods. If the volume is small, there wouldn't be much of an effect.

However, there is also the secondary effects to consider. Production through invention uses more resources, and uses some specific resources for the invention process itself. More demand, means higher prices for those goods as well. So, overall, mineral and T2 component prices should rise as well, taking the end product prices with them. Invention goods like datacores should see a rise in prices too, compounding the price rise of the end product. Obviously, high T2 goods prices should mean a contraction of the T2 market as availability is reduced.

It's difficult to predict exactly where the market equilibrium in those circumstances lie, especially without knowing the volume of T2 sales in the open market. However, I wouldn't be surprised if a rise in mineral, T2 production component, invention good, and T2 produce would be a result. I don't think this would be a bad thing as such, given the current deflation tendency of the market. Prime beneficiaries of this would be miners, POS miners, R&D missioneers. Inventioneers would get a more fair price for their goods. Missioneers would benefit because their loot would be an alternative to the T2 market that would contract, but that effect would be subsidiary. Overall, I would expect a more efficient market.

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:23:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane

An advantage because by now, all T2 BPOs aught to have been researched up to perfect values



LaughingLaughingLaughing

Look the time and skill requirements before doing a statement like that.


Considering the time that most T2 BPOs are around, skill requirements are inconsequential in comparison. However, for some T2 BPOs, hitting perfect values would take a lot of time, relatively speaking. However, as getting that last bit of Tritanium out isn't very important, I would like to replace the last three words of that sentence into 'to near perfect values'.

Tell me, I made your day :)

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:36:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: shady trader
Also I think something needs to be done about free datacores, either only give them then missions are completed or some other price has to be paid.
They are not free. They are the return from an investment in isk (skill brought, implant brought if the character is an alt, time spent rising the standing with low return missions instead of doing more isk rewarding missions) and time (again doing the mission for the standing, training time for the skills).
They are also not free in the sense that they hold value, and that value is invested into the invention process. There are people who gladly sink 10mils worth of cores and another 10mils worth of materials into the invention and production of some T2 item, and then go on to sell it for 15mil.

In their minds, they made a 5mil profit over the materials, when in fact they made a 5mil loss in total assets. They would have made more money if they had just ignored the invention/production process and sold everything straight to the market. The situation gets even worse if they mine their own ore and produce their own materials, and think that those are free as well. Then they might come to believe that their only costs are those incurred by the refining and manufacturing. Now they'll ignore the value in both the cores and the materials, and put a product containing 20mil worth of components on the market for, say, 5mil and think it's 100% profit.

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:37:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
My one and only gripe with them is they do not fit into any sensible industrial goal.

There's *zero* reason for someone to purchase a T2 BPO for purely industrial reasons, in fact the only reason I ever hear that makes sense is "I have lots of ISK and nothing better to do for it", which in itself is an admission that they are only bought when money is no object, or in other words "When ISK is an issue, I won't buy a T2 BPO".

The fact that people buy these for *stupid* amounts of ISK "as an investment" compounds the issue because it prevents the development of new content for EVE. Simply put because if something *better* than T2 comes out which is manufacturable, it'll likely devalue the T2 BPO immensely, causing a torrent of whines from people who *stupidly* invested large amounts of money into these things.


The tl;dr version: I don't like T2 BPO's because their current implementation ****s with the development of new industrial content and long-term goals.

Jealousy and resentment? Psht. Only reason I'd buy a T2 BPO is to utilise the 'trash it' option, because there's far better ways to make ISK.


This is not entirely true. T2 BPOs are a worthwhile investment, but not necessarily from an individual industrial's point of view. They are worth while for large corps and alliances though. Having cheap and constantly available T2 ships and modules on tap for an alliance is a valuable thing to have. Invention is non-deterministic, and although large numbers of invention can soften the blow, it's also a large money and effort sink. Most of these goods don't reach the market, but do have an effect on it, because the 'have' alliance doesn't have to compete on the market for their replacements. And at that level the Isk needed to get a T2 BPO isn't as much of a threshold either. Obviously, I think that's an unfair advantage to have as a corps or an alliance, because it sets back new corps and alliances without any possibility of redressing it.

I agree though that it stifles development of new content, at least, if CCP isn't removing T2 BPOs because of all the whinage that would happen if they do. I'm still not sure though that that is the case, as CCP has taken steps before that where detrimental to some but beneficial to the game as a whole. I do wonder what they're waiting for though. Did it just fall of the list?

Sonafets
Caldari
Bauser Heavy Industries
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:38:00 - [53]
 

Owning some specific T2 BPOs is my endgame. I saved and bought 3 crappy ones but eventually I'll get the one I want (Hint, it's a CS). Keep them!
S

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:39:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: shady trader
Also I think something needs to be done about free datacores, either only give them then missions are completed or some other price has to be paid.
They are not free. They are the return from an investment in isk (skill brought, implant brought if the character is an alt, time spent rising the standing with low return missions instead of doing more isk rewarding missions) and time (again doing the mission for the standing, training time for the skills).
They are also not free in the sense that they hold value, and that value is invested into the invention process. There are people who gladly sink 10mils worth of cores and another 10mils worth of materials into the invention and production of some T2 item, and then go on to sell it for 15mil.

In their minds, they made a 5mil profit over the materials, when in fact they made a 5mil loss in total assets. They would have made more money if they had just ignored the invention/production process and sold everything straight to the market. The situation gets even worse if they mine their own ore and produce their own materials, and think that those are free as well. Then they might come to believe that their only costs are those incurred by the refining and manufacturing. Now they'll ignore the value in both the cores and the materials, and put a product containing 20mil worth of components on the market for, say, 5mil and think it's 100% profit.


I agree, but then, the market doesn't always act rationally. And I'm glad that it doesn't, because where else would resellers make their Isk?

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2008.10.05 12:53:00 - [55]
 

meh, imo t2 prices are way to low these day.
i miss the old days.
the t2 bpo's are fine as invention have already made sure that the owners doesnt make a whole lot of isk like they once did.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.05 13:08:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane

An advantage because by now, all T2 BPOs aught to have been researched up to perfect values



LaughingLaughingLaughing

Look the time and skill requirements before doing a statement like that.


Considering the time that most T2 BPOs are around, skill requirements are inconsequential in comparison. However, for some T2 BPOs, hitting perfect values would take a lot of time, relatively speaking. However, as getting that last bit of Tritanium out isn't very important, I would like to replace the last three words of that sentence into 'to near perfect values'.

Tell me, I made your day :)


Perfect ME for a Quake L (ammunition) 6 years (T2 BPO have been in play for less than 3 years).

"Reasonable" ME for T1 large ammunition BPO is normally about 100, that will require 400.000 minutes, so about 9 months .

Acceptable ME for a T2 BPO 5, so again for an ammunition BPO it require 20.000 minutes, almost 14 days.

1 ME level for a Command ship 35.360 minutes, 24 days and a half. You really think there are much "near perfect values" T2 BPO?

BTW, PE times are about 80% longer.

And the skill requirement is relevant as it mean that for several months after getting them the first owners didn't researched them as they were training up the needed skills (you need lower level of skills to produce than to research).

So again, look the BPO and the time requirements before doing this kind of statements.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.10.05 13:25:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane

This is not entirely true. T2 BPOs are a worthwhile investment, but not necessarily from an individual industrial's point of view. They are worth while for large corps and alliances though. Having cheap and constantly available T2 ships and modules on tap for an alliance is a valuable thing to have. Invention is non-deterministic, and although large numbers of invention can soften the blow, it's also a large money and effort sink. Most of these goods don't reach the market, but do have an effect on it, because the 'have' alliance doesn't have to compete on the market for their replacements. And at that level the Isk needed to get a T2 BPO isn't as much of a threshold either. Obviously, I think that's an unfair advantage to have as a corps or an alliance, because it sets back new corps and alliances without any possibility of redressing it.

I agree though that it stifles development of new content, at least, if CCP isn't removing T2 BPOs because of all the whinage that would happen if they do. I'm still not sure though that that is the case, as CCP has taken steps before that where detrimental to some but beneficial to the game as a whole. I do wonder what they're waiting for though. Did it just fall of the list?


So you think that is more efficient for a corporation to buy a Astarte BPO at 25 billions than use 25 billions to buy the GTC for 8 accounts for 1 year, train 24 inventors, all with 5 R&D agents and relevant datacore production and get them to work on inventing Astarte?

(Not the best example as the astarte has a low price currently, but it is a BPO that was selling yesterday, so I have the sell price at hand. You can substitute any HAC or Command ship.)

With that number of inventors and invention running the corporation has a granted production: 2 and a half day for inventing a HAC, 10 slots, 24 characters, 20% chance of success = 19 BPC/day after research has started (almost as much as the whole BPO production for a HAC in all EVE [30 BPO at all for ships from the data in the old Dev blog, so the production from BPO is approximately 20 units/day]).

If a day they are unlucky and get 10 units the next day the will probably get 30, when you consider 240 invention jobs every 2,5 day you are pretty sure that you will stay very near the average.

BPC can be stockpiled, so you can change your product as need change and have a reserve if you need it again. T" BPO copy time is way longer than production so copying them is really a last resort solution and way inefficient.

So, no, for well organized alliance invention is way better. A single individual has limited advantage from a BPO but not an alliance.



Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.10.05 14:08:00 - [58]
 

If:

- T2 BPOs have no real impact on T2 prices: Get rid of them because they are a redundant and obsolete relict that got replaced by a new game mechanic.

- T2 BPOs cause lowering of T2 prices beyond invention profitability: Get rid of them because they create a imbalance in the economy and add a unfair advantage to those people that were around when T2 BPOs were seeded, either through the BPO or through the ISK they got from selling it.


Your pick.Laughing

Fwuffy Wabbit
Posted - 2008.10.05 14:12:00 - [59]
 

Just some numbers I ran through Excel on Gallente T2 BSs using Jita price data:

1: Invented BPC at ME -1

http://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=invent1yh8.gif

Profit on Sin: 36 Mill isk
Profit on Kronos: 67 Mill isk

2: Invented BPC at ME 5

http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=invent2qc8.gif

Profit on Sin: 79 Mill isk
Profit on Kronos: 124 Mill isk


3: Invented BPC at Perfect ME

http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=invent3ax4.gif

Profit on Sin: 83 Mill isk
Profit on Kronos: 129 Mill isk

4: Hypothetical BPO at ME 5

http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=invent5hk1.gif

Profit on Sin: 191 Mill isk
Profit on Kronos: 235 Mill isk

5: Hypothetical BPO at Perfect ME

http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=invent4cz4.gif

Profit on Sin: 195 Mill isk
Profit on Kronos: 241 Mill isk


WTB T2 BS BPOs WinkWink

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2008.10.05 15:59:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Gamer4liff on 05/10/2008 16:22:09
Originally by: Avon
In terms of volume I very much doubt that BPO's have much of an effect on the market, they are just an easy target for producers who didn't think invention through very much.



Not true at all, for many ships, like Damnations for instance, 100% of the supply is T2 BPO based. (Maybe 99% if some stupid inventor didn't realize it was impossible to profit off of invention for them).

Originally by: Kaeten
having a t2bpo = monopoly + free isk



2005 called, they want their opinion back.


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