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Cras'h
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.09.30 15:11:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: KIAEddZ
Those screenshots prove what exactly?

The 2 points he is contesting are that when local was at 130 it was about/circa 80% BoB... he shsows local at 640 or summin..

Other one shows what looks like 100 yellow wrecks on gate.. and not a single "white" 1, supposedly show sthat the DD's were highly succesful.

My Recount of the events are factual from the pov of view of events that unfolded on KIA TS and the AARs after on our forums.


Can i have your stuff ?
Cry some more will ya..
You made a buuumer and well ****ty happens
Now go back to jita and do some trading and let others do the FC`ing since your kinda sux at that

Zethura
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.09.30 15:20:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Shadowsword
And what are we supposed to do? Bring only 200 to limit lag, when you already have 350 AND the defenders advantage?

If you pack 350 peeps in a critical system, you force a stronger response. Stop playing the blame game about numbers, it's childish.

The answer when you're looking across a field at an enemy dug in deep with machine-guns, tanks and artillery covering all approaches is NOT to shout 'CHARGE!' and run mindlessly against the enemy!

Either you prevent him from digging in in the first place, you wait until his guard is down, or you attack somewhere else where your enemy is weak!

NOTHING at all prevented NC from attacking a GBC-held system and hold it down like we held down M-O, thus putting the burden of attacking on us!
Why you chose the headless charge instead is beyond words...

Once you let GBC incap your POS in M-O, put up our POS, and prepare a defence, the system was lost!
The critical point in any battle are the first hours, and you didn't react then (when M-O was initially attacked).

We've seen close to every single time it's been tried in EVE that the headless charge into prepared defences doesn't work, and yet stupid FC's are continuing to pursue this 'strategy' (this is not the right word, but the right one would be *'d) all over EVE...

In short, your FC's FAILED horribly!



Fail post. I seem to remember the only reason you managed to take they system in the first place was due to another node crash after which BoB managed to log in before NC, anyone see a pattern here? As soon as you had blobbed the system you the take down the jammer and jump titans in, ready to DD the defense fleet if it was every able to log back in. As we can see this is the winning "tactics" BoB employ crash node ---> log in first ---> take down undefended jammer ---> jump in titans. If we look at the numbers against you we can see that without another node crash with you guys getting in first on mass again you wouldn't of held the system. It's funny to see how the so called best PvPers in the game love the fact they managed to win a fight where the enemy can fire back. Personally i'm not sure about the new feature that when you get chucked off the server your ship gets left there for BoB to kill seems a little bit of a strange feature to introduce. Also seems strange that BoB's max hits a brick wall at tribute when BoB cant beat the defense fleets this crap happens not once but twice.

Maximillian Bayonette
Gallente
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.09.30 15:28:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Zethura
Fail post. I seem to remember the only reason you managed to take they system in the first place was due to another node crash after which BoB managed to log in before NC, anyone see a pattern here? As soon as you had blobbed the system you the take down the jammer and jump titans in, ready to DD the defense fleet if it was every able to log back in. As we can see this is the winning "tactics" BoB employ crash node ---> log in first ---> take down undefended jammer ---> jump in titans. If we look at the numbers against you we can see that without another node crash with you guys getting in first on mass again you wouldn't of held the system. It's funny to see how the so called best PvPers in the game love the fact they managed to win a fight where the enemy can fire back. Personally i'm not sure about the new feature that when you get chucked off the server your ship gets left there for BoB to kill seems a little bit of a strange feature to introduce. Also seems strange that BoB's max hits a brick wall at tribute when BoB cant beat the defense fleets this crap happens not once but twice.


Excellent post. A couple of questions:

1. When did the node crash in M-0? Before or after the NC jumped 600+ people into the system?

2. Depending on your answer to 1, what would be the reason for the node crashing?

3. Do you think BoB cheat/hack/get dev help in any way in order to log in quicker?

4. If your answer to 3 was 'yes', why didn't they use said help during previous battles, some a mere week ago, where it was the NC who loaded quicker after a node crash and killed GBC caps?

5. If your answer to 3 was yes, why the hell are you still playing the game? If I thought the game was slanted to such an effect where devs are actively helping a side I would quit. No, I don't count a dev spawning BPOs to his own character as actively helping a side.

Szass Tam
Amarr
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.09.30 15:38:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Zethura
Fail post. I seem to remember the only reason you managed to take they system in the first place was due to another node crash after which BoB managed to log in before NC, anyone see a pattern here? As soon as you had blobbed the system you the take down the jammer and jump titans in, ready to DD the defense fleet if it was every able to log back in. As we can see this is the winning "tactics" BoB employ crash node ---> log in first ---> take down undefended jammer ---> jump in titans. If we look at the numbers against you we can see that without another node crash with you guys getting in first on mass again you wouldn't of held the system. It's funny to see how the so called best PvPers in the game love the fact they managed to win a fight where the enemy can fire back. Personally i'm not sure about the new feature that when you get chucked off the server your ship gets left there for BoB to kill seems a little bit of a strange feature to introduce. Also seems strange that BoB's max hits a brick wall at tribute when BoB cant beat the defense fleets this crap happens not once but twice.


If you seriously believe what you're saying you should cancel your accounts and quit eve, cause well ... we're invincible.
Please contract all your stuff to me.

Carin K
Minmatar
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.09.30 15:44:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Gamesguy


Quote:
Local is at 130, 80% ish are BoB.


Local is 80% bob indeed.

I believe I have made my point.



*posts unrelated screenshots*
*idiots rush to tell him he has won the thread*

(in your screenie there are 631 people in local, in his account, he is talking about a time when only 130 are there, shut up, tia)

Maximillian Bayonette
Gallente
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.09.30 15:49:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Zethura
1. The first time was when BoB blobbed the system from low sec the node went down so then the NC sniper fleet covering the gate with cap support was not able to log back in til after BoB.


According to you "[you] havn't pew pew'd in 0.0 cos the game there is no fun with this sort of bs happening", so how do you know what happened? As far as I've read, BoB have been present in the system for a number of days. It was no secret that a POS attack was imminent. The NC could have done something to stop it other than send the super-blob, but true to style, they opted for that approach. It failed them this time. It won them the day last week in 15w. Why didn't you complain then?

Originally by: Zethura

2.I dont know it could of been load or it could of been one of the exploits used to create lag used to and extreme to kill the node.


Please tell us more about these exploits. I'm sure we'd all like to hear about them. I'm sure CCP would too. Oh, yeah that's right, CCP are all in BoB's pockets.

I'll ask again: What crashed the node? The 350 GBC guys already in the system or the 600+ who jumped in?

Originally by: Zethura

3. It wouldn't supprise me if BoB have tips from the Devs about how to log in first. Information not given to the rest of us therefore an unfair advantage


What information is that? Is it so super secret that we don't know about it, but we do know they have it? Where is the evidence for this? Is this still about T20?

Originally by: Zethura

4. Their total arrogance when it comes to their abilities in game probably led them to beleave they could win fair and square


That doesn't sound like BoB. They would have gone all out and used all their hax and exploits to secure the win.

Also, do you know any people who where abducted by aliens? Perhaps you where yourself?

Originally by: Zethura

5. Since seeing BoB exploits used and the inaction of CCP on the matter i havn't pew pew'd in 0.0 cos the game there is no fun with this sort of bs happening. And they make it so obvious they exploit with comments like "we test the game mechanics on sisi", hmm wonder what they're looking for.


You didn't answer my question. Why, if you honestly believe the crap you're spouting, don't you simply cancel your account? After all, if what you say was true, you would basically be paying BoB to play the game. It seems extremely stupid to me to pay money to someone you know is cheating you. Perhaps its some sort of implant you got installed in your brain when you where on the flying saucer?

O Thief
Amarr
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2008.09.30 15:49:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Zethura

1. The first time was when BoB blobbed the system from low sec the node went down so then the NC sniper fleet covering the gate with cap support was not able to log back in til after BoB.

2.I dont know it could of been load or it could of been one of the exploits used to create lag used to and extreme to kill the node.

3. It wouldn't supprise me if BoB have tips from the Devs about how to log in first. Information not given to the rest of us therefore an unfair advantage

4. Their total arrogance when it comes to their abilities in game probably led them to beleave they could win fair and square

5. Since seeing BoB exploits used and the inaction of CCP on the matter i havn't pew pew'd in 0.0 cos the game there is no fun with this sort of bs happening. And they make it so obvious they exploit with comments like "we test the game mechanics on sisi", hmm wonder what they're looking for.


It really is NOT hard to get an alt in the GBC and fly with them.

Do it.

You'll see for yourself what a complete and utter load of **** you're spewing. In the meantime, please stop posting Laughing


Karbowiak
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.09.30 15:54:00 - [68]
 

i see lots of KIA and NC alt crying..

Mostly KIA tho, but did anyone expect anything different? Laughing

Zethura
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.09.30 16:03:00 - [69]
 

@ Maximillian Bayonette

The exploits i'm talking about are ones like the BM copying ones the cap gate spamming ones and any other one's you may of found while "testing" sisi. If people knew the tips THERE WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM. My stuff is staying in my account and even if i did quit why would i use my stuff to fund a coalition that plays the game like BoB do. Who knows what crashed the node the only people who know are CCP and like always with one of these events they dont directly respond they only delete and ignore comments about their bias.

Yersinia Pest1s
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.09.30 16:21:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Yersinia Pest1s on 30/09/2008 16:32:08
Edited by: Yersinia Pest1s on 30/09/2008 16:30:40
Originally by: KIAEddZ
Edited by: KIAEddZ on 30/09/2008 11:32:43
People say that we shouldn't jump in 600 to face 450.... what choice do we have, are people suggesting the first person to get 400+ in local wins by default..



Ummmm...perhaps make them jump into you? Oh wait...they wouldn't do that because, well tbh they don't fail.

And Zethura, what precisely is wrong with testing game mechanics on sisi? That IS what it is for after all. It's hard to play the game if you don't the rules, faulting BoB for reading the rule book (testing on SiSi) will never get you anywhere.

Homo Erectus
Amarr
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.09.30 16:30:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Seth Quantix
KIAEddz the confused american soilder "Last in - first out"


Hi. I don't care if we're in the same alliance or not. I hate that crap ^^ American, British, Swedish, it doesn't fk'n matter.

And at least Eddz isn't throwing the same CCP conspiracy crap around as everyone else we're massacring. A POV is a POV. It's not factual math.

Zethura
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.09.30 16:41:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Yersinia Pest1s
Edited by: Yersinia Pest1s on 30/09/2008 16:32:08
Edited by: Yersinia Pest1s on 30/09/2008 16:30:40
Originally by: KIAEddZ
Edited by: KIAEddZ on 30/09/2008 11:32:43
People say that we shouldn't jump in 600 to face 450.... what choice do we have, are people suggesting the first person to get 400+ in local wins by default..



Ummmm...perhaps make them jump into you? Oh wait...they wouldn't do that because, well tbh they don't fail.

And Zethura, what precisely is wrong with testing game mechanics on sisi? That IS what it is for after all. It's hard to play the game if you don't the rules, faulting BoB for reading the rule book (testing on SiSi) will never get you anywhere.


testing for ways to lag out the enemy and bs like that, that's the way to play a game is it?

Cyrana Bergerac
Caldari
nicomedes inc.
Posted - 2008.09.30 16:50:00 - [73]
 


Whatever the enemies of BOB say, it is their own fault, if they get slaughtered while they look on a black screen.

It was always like that, it will be always like that.

Do you really think, it will change after all that time, all that battles, which have been fought and lost from various alliances against BOB before?

If you still join a mass capital battle against BOB and expect something like a win, a playable situation, you are simply a moron, who deserves to lose your ship like always and of course no reinbursement for you.

ElCoCo
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.09.30 16:50:00 - [74]
 

Dunno, we certainly weren't crying. We didn't lose anything compared to what the NC lost and that's pretty obvious.

TS with KIA and DAI was pretty chill even after the node crash. I doubt out of the 100 on our TS that even 3 ppl saw any grid for at least 2hrs after the node crashed.

Before I warped to the POS I had taken 2 DD's and looking back there realy were not many wrecks (I think 3-4 whites only) so don't blame eddz for saying that as I saw the same.
Obviously it might have been lag but well, with the setup we chose we could easily withstand 2 DD's (I know I did). Now if that setup was up for the task, you can't say cause you didn't know our plans Wink

Looking at the killboard it looks (and is) terrible tbh Razz.

I have to say though that even with all that, the game was very very playable upto the node crash. I was very surprised and I heard the same from most on then. We might be onto something here Very Happy

Bobbechk
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.09.30 16:50:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: KIAEddZ
Edited by: KIAEddZ on 30/09/2008 11:32:43
...
Reports of 470 Bob in M-O inc 90 Caps and 5 Titans.
...
1140 people in local
....
Node crash.
....
Node crash
...



*looks surprised*

Yersinia Pest1s
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.09.30 16:54:00 - [76]
 

I agree that may not be the best tactic or the most honourable, but if you know how to do it (if in fact that is what they tested, which I don't fully believe) then you will know how to counter it.

Goose Hypocrisy
Caldari
Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.09.30 16:55:00 - [77]
 

You know it's fun and all to troll BoB on CAOD but you NC dudes need to stop whining and start learning how the game works already.

pacifica
Gallente
Dark Ashes
Posted - 2008.09.30 17:25:00 - [78]
 

Nice report Edd

for my part 5 year in eve world and CCP never bring what it was supposed....


We all wish to see this game grow and get better but the real thing is WHEN it will happend all the stuff they add all the new feature .... and what they forget is What we will need to bring as number to counter it...

I miss the old day of eve...



Wotlankor
Caldari
Black Aces
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.09.30 17:38:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Wotlankor on 30/09/2008 17:40:18
Originally by: Homo Erectus
And at least Eddz isn't throwing the same CCP conspiracy crap around as everyone else we're massacring. A POV is a POV. It's not factual math.



God its nice to see a real post between all the crap.
Ofcource we percieve the battle from different sides.

Thank you !

Lets cut the conspiracy. CCP build a game we enjoy (some may enjoy it too much and should check out the new release of RL) but never the less they are a professional company that want to maintain a profittable business.
Can they do that and enjoy it at the same time they are most successfull.

Someone sugested that we should go siege a system that BoB was not in.
I play this game for the pew pew, not to go siege a system while the enemy is in another. Yes, maybe we could then provoke BoB to jump into our "digged in camp", but that aint my idea of fun.

To sum up:
- I dont get the anger most of you guys display.
- Lets have some fun fights.
- You dont win EVE, you play it.
- Now go play the game we enjoy and spend to much time and money on.

Fly safe all o/

Edit: P r o f i t t a b l e is a no no word ? Very Happy

Maximillian Bayonette
Gallente
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.09.30 17:54:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Zethura

The exploits i'm talking about are ones like the BM copying ones


You mean the one that your previous BFF RA made famous? The one that isn't viable since about two years or so because of BM copying limitations?

Originally by: Zethura

the cap gate spamming ones


Not sure I understand you here. Are you saying it's an exploit to have caps at gates? In that case the NC where certainly exploiting big time yesterday judging from the position of all those cap wrecks.

Originally by: Zethura

and any other one's you may of found while "testing" sisi.


Are you saying BoB isn't really testing anything on sisi? What are you suggesting they are doing? Is it an exploit to use sisi (the test server) to see how the game reacts under certain circumstances, like high lag situations? Is sisi not open for all players to test stuff? I don't get what's exploitive about that.

Originally by: Zethura

If people knew the tips THERE WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM.


So, you're saying BoB knows stuff about the game after learning it on sisi. This stuff is super sekret, and nobody else knows about it. Noone is able to perform their own tests on sisi. We all know BoB have know these things becuase we all know they do. The reason we know they know is that we know they know. We don't need evidence to know that we know that they know.

Originally by: Zethura

My stuff is staying in my account and even if i did quit why would i use my stuff to fund a coalition that plays the game like BoB do.


I never asked for your stuff. I asked you to quit the game.

Originally by: Zethura

Who knows what crashed the node the only people who know are CCP and like always with one of these events they dont directly respond they only delete and ignore comments about their bias.


Seriously, I will ask you again, and I pleade to whatever small measure of common sense you have:

What crashed the node? The 350 GBC already in the system, apparently almost unaffected by server instability, or the 600+ NC people that jumped in just as the node crashed. It's a simple dual-choice question.

Zethura
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.09.30 18:03:00 - [81]
 

@ Maximillian Bayonette firstly post with you main have some balls. Second the sisi "testing" where you go to find problems with the programming then use that to tip battles through lag or whatever is that how you should be playing a game? And no i didn't mean caps on gates i ment something else which appon examination of the forum rules i can't make public but lets say BoB have again been know to use this to cause more lag than would otherwise be experienced. and like i've said over and over but it still doesn't seem to go in is i dont know what crashed the node i dont have the access to the info that CCP had or maybe you could tell us what it is GBC do to create lag.

Tzrailasa
Gallente
Tzrailasa Corp
Posted - 2008.09.30 18:21:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Zethura
...or maybe you could tell us what it is GBC do to create lag.

We shoot ships.....

Moonlight Express
Amarr
Moonlight Express Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.30 18:33:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Moonlight Express on 30/09/2008 18:34:21

Originally by: Zethura
And no i didn't mean caps on gates i ment something else which appon examination of the forum rules i can't make public but lets say BoB have again been know to use this to cause more lag than would otherwise be experienced.


So are you saying that you are petitioning BoB for using this exploit that you cannot reveal on forums and we'll see all members of BoB banned from EVE for doing this soon? Or are you just throwing bull**** to the wind hoping it will stick?

Zethura
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.09.30 18:37:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Moonlight Express
Edited by: Moonlight Express on 30/09/2008 18:34:21

Originally by: Zethura
And no i didn't mean caps on gates i ment something else which appon examination of the forum rules i can't make public but lets say BoB have again been know to use this to cause more lag than would otherwise be experienced.


So are you saying that you are petitioning BoB for using this exploit that you cannot reveal on forums and we'll see all members of BoB banned from EVE for doing this soon? Or are you just throwing bull**** to the wind hoping it will stick?



If you dont know it your one of the few you shouldn't expect people to have to spell everything out for you.

Moonlight Express
Amarr
Moonlight Express Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.30 18:41:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Moonlight Express on 30/09/2008 18:43:06
Originally by: Zethura
Originally by: Moonlight Express
Edited by: Moonlight Express on 30/09/2008 18:34:21

Originally by: Zethura
And no i didn't mean caps on gates i ment something else which appon examination of the forum rules i can't make public but lets say BoB have again been know to use this to cause more lag than would otherwise be experienced.


So are you saying that you are petitioning BoB for using this exploit that you cannot reveal on forums and we'll see all members of BoB banned from EVE for doing this soon? Or are you just throwing bull**** to the wind hoping it will stick?



If you dont know it your one of the few you shouldn't expect people to have to spell everything out for you.


So are you saying that you know this exploit, BoB uses it and you do not? How is it an exploit and if it is why is BoB allowed to use it after you petitioned it? Why are you not using it yourself or are you? Please explain. I'm a noob and need to have it spelled out to me please. I would like to know how to do this myself. Feel free to eve mail me since you can't say on the forums.


Zethura
Caldari
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.09.30 18:49:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Moonlight Express
Edited by: Moonlight Express on 30/09/2008 18:43:06
Originally by: Zethura
Originally by: Moonlight Express
Edited by: Moonlight Express on 30/09/2008 18:34:21

Originally by: Zethura
And no i didn't mean caps on gates i ment something else which appon examination of the forum rules i can't make public but lets say BoB have again been know to use this to cause more lag than would otherwise be experienced.


So are you saying that you are petitioning BoB for using this exploit that you cannot reveal on forums and we'll see all members of BoB banned from EVE for doing this soon? Or are you just throwing bull**** to the wind hoping it will stick?



If you dont know it your one of the few you shouldn't expect people to have to spell everything out for you.


So are you saying that you know this exploit, BoB uses it and you do not? How is it an exploit and if it is why is BoB allowed to use it after you petitioned it? Why are you not using it yourself or are you? Please explain. I'm a noob and need to have it spelled out to me please. I would like to know how to do this myself. Feel free to eve mail me since you can't say on the forums.




1. that's not the way i play the game i think dirty tactics ruin the game and take all the fun from it

2. I currently dont have the cap to do the exploit with even if i wanted to

3. I dont petition it cos i truly doubt any action would be taken look at a well known example of BoB getting caught cheating, t20 what action was taken here did it turn out well for the whistle blower?

Maximillian Bayonette
Gallente
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.09.30 18:54:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Zethura
@ Maximillian Bayonette firstly post with you main have some balls.


I am posting with my main. Post with your main.

Originally by: Zethura

Second the sisi "testing" where you go to find problems with the programming then use that to tip battles through lag or whatever is that how you should be playing a game?


I think that's an excellent useage of the test server. Test how the game works without it actually costing you anything but time. Are you saying that you think that because BoB have organized tests on sisi, that makes them exploiters just because you can't be assed to do so? I'd call that lazy on your part tbh.

Originally by: Zethura

And no i didn't mean caps on gates i ment something else which appon examination of the forum rules i can't make public but lets say BoB have again been know to use this to cause more lag than would otherwise be experienced.


Ah, so it's one of those things where you know they did something wrong, but you can't tell us what they did that was wrong? I'd say you're so full of **** it's coming out of your ears, mate. You're like a turd wrapped in tin-foil. Looks kind of like a shish-kebab, but tastes like crap.

Originally by: Zethura

and like i've said over and over but it still doesn't seem to go in is i dont know what crashed the node i dont have the access to the info that CCP had or maybe you could tell us what it is GBC do to create lag.


Well, I do know what crashed the server. Everyone who has a functioning brain knows exactly what caused it. When you jump 600 people into an empty system you're lucky if the node holds. If you jump 600 people into a system with 350 people already in it the node is going to implode. It's common sense, something which you're obviously lacking.

In short, the NC caused the node crash. Not the GBC as was your original claim.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2008.09.30 18:56:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: KIAEddZ
Most BS are Dual DD resistant.



Sorry. If your BS is dual DD resistant, then your BS is fitted like crap and deserves to die. The only exception of a BS that can be well fitted and dual DD resistant that I have ever seen is my old Navy Apoc.

the Poet
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.09.30 18:58:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Zethura
am full of $hit


Free edit and translation fee.

Kittara
Gallente
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.30 19:05:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: KIAEddZ
Most BS are Dual DD resistant.



Sorry. If your BS is dual DD resistant, then your BS is fitted like crap and deserves to die. The only exception of a BS that can be well fitted and dual DD resistant that I have ever seen is my old Navy Apoc.


Surprised? KIA and crap setup are inseparable.


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