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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:01:00 - [301]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
I didn't even post...

Oh, I'm sorry, I directed it you because I thought you were the community manager.

Silly me.

Laughing

opps :P

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:02:00 - [302]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie
Edited by: Gnulpie on 21/09/2008 21:51:09
Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 21/09/2008 21:11:20
Originally by: Gnulpie
..stuff..

Oh the irony!
Wasn't it you that posted about the system cap that never existed when BoB's cap yards were assaulted?


A system cap never existed? Interesting ...

Maybe you can explain then the dev blog by Oveur from 30. Aug 2006 where he stated that there is a cap of "...700 people in a single solar system. We haven't hit that yet..." and that was 5 months before the attack on the shipyard in F-T which happened at end of March 2007.

So you say such a cap never existed and that Oveur talked crap in that devblog?


Funny ... not. Take your **** elsewhere!

ah but now it's a hard cap. in other words before a system could never have more than 70. now it's hard capped at 1400 so that the node doesn't explode.

Silver Sarena
Caldari
Coreward Pan-Galactic
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:06:00 - [303]
 

Just yet another example of CCP not planning ahead or knowing how to properly run/administer their own game. I am truly surprised people are actually still getting angry about this sort of stuff. Like this latest Neolithic incompetience display is something new on the part of the devs? Rolling Eyes Seriously. This level of abuse and lack of caring from the powers that be is just part of Eve life. Get used to it, or leave. Your choice.

They'll fix it. Eventually. After all, something like this would actually hit them in the pocketbook because of the inevitable loss in accounts, and that is the only thing they really listen to.

Just set a long train and live with it. Go play something else, or quit, and free up a slot for someone else in Jita.

Cheers and fly safe to everyone who didn't rage in the thread.

Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:09:00 - [304]
 

Finally the problem has become serious enough for CCP to have to act, even if their choice of action is a dubious one. However I'm sure that they will be as keenly aware of the possible exploits arising out of this as anyone else, which in itself illustrates just how desperate the situation now is.

Whatever the final solution turns out to be, "temporary" is very much the key word to their current one. The longer this system cap persists, the further this otherwise brilliant game will continue to slide backwards.

/Ben

K'Nar
Destructive Influence
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:11:00 - [305]
 

Edited by: K''Nar on 21/09/2008 22:13:20
Originally by: Gnulpie
A system cap never existed? Interesting ...

Maybe you can explain then the dev blog by Oveur from 30. Aug 2006 where he stated that there is a cap of "...700 people in a single solar system. We haven't hit that yet..." and that was 5 months before the attack on the shipyard in F-T which happened at end of March 2007.

So you say such a cap never existed and that Oveur talked crap in that devblog?

Funny ... not. Take your **** elsewhere!

As someone who was there......

F-TE never hit more than 550 people at the most. I don't really see how a 700 cap would have any effect.

Most of the BoB fleet was actually in the adjecent systems for the explicit purpose of REDUCING lag in F-TE. The BoB leadership felt that lag would work more for our enemies than for us, so we tried to limit it as best we could.

The sad truth was that the people not getting into F-TE couldn't get in because the system prevented jump-ins when the CPU for the node was maxed. This was what happened and nothing else.
Originally by: Oveur (your reference)
The jump queue on the other hand is far more tricky. We believed it was effectively "disabled" by setting it to kick in at 95% or more CPU usage. This is a very bad node state and means that you are more than likely to get stuck if you get into a system like that.


Hey You
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:17:00 - [306]
 

Originally by: Hey You
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Vikarion
The cap limit is high, a node coincidentally failed (this is similar to other node failures I've seen), and nobody is going to be able to use this as an exploit in 0.0 until we get dynamic load re-balancing, because we'll still get horrendous lag with fleet fights over 400. And the cap is higher than that.
The cap is just a temporary measure to allow us more time to analyse the data from last night and avoid cascading problems tonight. There were 1,400 pilots in Jita last night, Saturday, and the temporary cap value was chosen so only Jita is realistically affected. We were working throughout the night and this morning on this issue and are still at work.

Unfortunately one node died this afternoon (not 30 nodes) but that incident is not related to the temporary capping as far as we can tell. The maximum population in the solar systems on that node was well below the cap.


Why was a rollback done in M-O? After node crash? Can we kindly get our 15+ Battleship kil mails we made before node crash and our ships back that we lost becouse of node crash? Since node crash cosed us to lose advantage we had at start of fight?

It is a nasty surprise to log back in and see 15+ people you just shot down on gate again happily shooting you all over again.


Still awaiting answer.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:29:00 - [307]
 

Edited by: Avon on 21/09/2008 22:28:59
Originally by: Gnulpie

A system cap never existed? Interesting ...

Maybe you can explain then the dev blog by Oveur from 30. Aug 2006 where he stated that there is a cap of "...700 people in a single solar system. We haven't hit that yet..." and that was 5 months before the attack on the shipyard in F-T which happened at end of March 2007.

So you say such a cap never existed and that Oveur talked crap in that devblog?


Funny ... not. Take your **** elsewhere!


There was no system cap in place during that battle.
Go back and read the threads from the time (assuming you can work out when that was, your ability at counting months seems somewhat lacking), it was discussed in detail back then.

I was there in a dread (on an alt).

Faw'kin Friendly
Caldari
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:39:00 - [308]
 

What happends during these TEMPORARY few days could easy change the alliance wars/conflicts outcome all toghter, (Defending, POS jammers, POSīS Capital construction yards Etc) understand that this is probably the single biggest exploitable feature in years....

FFS CCP Close the server NOW!

VCBee2888
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:46:00 - [309]
 

Welcome to my world Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

VCBee2777
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:46:00 - [310]
 

Originally by: VCBee2888
Welcome to my world Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

Miss Artica
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.09.21 22:49:00 - [311]
 

Edited by: Miss Artica on 21/09/2008 22:51:30
Originally by: Hey You

Why was a rollback done in M-O? After node crash? Can we kindly get our 15+ Battleship kil mails we made before node crash and our ships back that we lost becouse of node crash? Since node crash cosed us to lose advantage we had at start of fight?

It is a nasty surprise to log back in and see 15+ people you just shot down on gate again happily shooting you all over again.


Still awaiting answer.


I was in system, never loaded... and then BLAM in EC- with out implants or anything. Lost a mega, waiting on response... Never got a loss mail for my pod or my mega...

(reason for edit: Loss mail thing)

baltec1
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:06:00 - [312]
 

Originally by: Faw'kin Friendly
What happends during these TEMPORARY few days could easy change the alliance wars/conflicts outcome all toghter, (Defending, POS jammers, POSīS Capital construction yards Etc) understand that this is probably the single biggest exploitable feature in years....

FFS CCP Close the server NOW!


Not going to happen.

The cap is at 800 as far as we can tell which means that only a handfull of super alliences have the manpower to pull it off. Having said that none will ever try to get 800 into a single system simply because the lag bomb it would cause would be so bad many couldnt load into the system and more would de-sync and disconnect.

Thats without taking into account the fact that the node would probably go into meltdown

800 man fleets are simply too large to work.

Huan Hunglong
Intensive CareBearz
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:07:00 - [313]
 

Originally by: Miss Artica
Edited by: Miss Artica on 21/09/2008 22:51:30
Originally by: Hey You

Why was a rollback done in M-O? After node crash? Can we kindly get our 15+ Battleship kil mails we made before node crash and our ships back that we lost becouse of node crash? Since node crash cosed us to lose advantage we had at start of fight?

It is a nasty surprise to log back in and see 15+ people you just shot down on gate again happily shooting you all over again.


Still awaiting answer.


I was in system, never loaded... and then BLAM in EC- with out implants or anything. Lost a mega, waiting on response... Never got a loss mail for my pod or my mega...

(reason for edit: Loss mail thing)



Whereas others, recieved multiple insurance payouts...


Odda
Gallente
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:09:00 - [314]
 

Originally by: Hey You
Originally by: Hey You
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Vikarion
The cap limit is high, a node coincidentally failed (this is similar to other node failures I've seen), and nobody is going to be able to use this as an exploit in 0.0 until we get dynamic load re-balancing, because we'll still get horrendous lag with fleet fights over 400. And the cap is higher than that.
The cap is just a temporary measure to allow us more time to analyse the data from last night and avoid cascading problems tonight. There were 1,400 pilots in Jita last night, Saturday, and the temporary cap value was chosen so only Jita is realistically affected. We were working throughout the night and this morning on this issue and are still at work.

Unfortunately one node died this afternoon (not 30 nodes) but that incident is not related to the temporary capping as far as we can tell. The maximum population in the solar systems on that node was well below the cap.


Why was a rollback done in M-O? After node crash? Can we kindly get our 15+ Battleship kil mails we made before node crash and our ships back that we lost becouse of node crash? Since node crash cosed us to lose advantage we had at start of fight?

It is a nasty surprise to log back in and see 15+ people you just shot down on gate again happily shooting you all over again.


Still awaiting answer.


WTB answer here to!

Faw'kin Friendly
Caldari
Evolution
IT Alliance
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:15:00 - [315]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Faw'kin Friendly
What happends during these TEMPORARY few days could easy change the alliance wars/conflicts outcome all toghter, (Defending, POS jammers, POSīS Capital construction yards Etc) understand that this is probably the single biggest exploitable feature in years....

FFS CCP Close the server NOW!


Not going to happen.

The cap is at 800 as far as we can tell which means that only a handfull of super alliences have the manpower to pull it off. Having said that none will ever try to get 800 into a single system simply because the lag bomb it would cause would be so bad many couldnt load into the system and more would de-sync and disconnect.

Thats without taking into account the fact that the node would probably go into meltdown

800 man fleets are simply too large to work.


I bet you 1 isk the diffrence my good man but by GOD i hope you are right .... if your not we are going to hear HUSTON we have a problem. and i think that after today the limit arent 800 ppl but why would it stop any alliance creating 200 alts put them in a important system? ppl arent nice ppl want to win at any cost and after all years in eve we know ppl will try everything including this ....

enemy fleet 300 defending force 400.... logged off alts 100 alts log in during jumpin enemy get 100 ppl thru gate then CCP say No No dumb dumb you are staying on this side .. fleet that got thru goes bo0m bo0m... get my drift here?

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:27:00 - [316]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 21/09/2008 23:29:06
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Faw'kin Friendly
What happends during these TEMPORARY few days could easy change the alliance wars/conflicts outcome all toghter, (Defending, POS jammers, POSīS Capital construction yards Etc) understand that this is probably the single biggest exploitable feature in years....

FFS CCP Close the server NOW!


Not going to happen.

The cap is at 800 as far as we can tell which means that only a handfull of super alliences have the manpower to pull it off. Having said that none will ever try to get 800 into a single system simply because the lag bomb it would cause would be so bad many couldnt load into the system and more would de-sync and disconnect.

Thats without taking into account the fact that the node would probably go into meltdown

800 man fleets are simply too large to work.

If defending a POS, the defenders have ~2 days to get the defenders (and their other accounts) into system. They don't have to move as a fleet.
I have 4 accounts myself and know this is more common than not in the best PvP alliances (4 might actually be low).

Then its simply a matter of starting to log them on as soon as possible after DT and just leave them there. If you do it cloaked in safespots their lag impact will be minimal. Remember they're not there to DO anything. They're just there to fill the system to the cap limit.

Alliances will start doing this as it offers a risk-less way of defending systems. If the cap is the aforementioned 800, then if each person in a 200 man defence fleet logs in 2-3 alts, the attackers will not get in.

This can of.c. be reversed for attackers.....

As I wrote in post #227, these will be legitimate paid for accounts. It'll be hard for CCP to declare this an exploit, particularly in light of their 'Power of 2' offer.
Who to accuse of exploiting? People who log in their legitimate alliance characters to play a game they pay for?

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:29:00 - [317]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Why do this now? Jita has always been a problem - people knew and expected this, except the dumb people who went to Jita on sundays, and eff them - and this solution has opened up a whole new can of worms.

If you're so close to having a permanent solution, why not just wait until that's ready?


I guess you didnt see the drama yesterday caused when they upgraded jita to hold 1000.

Naturaly 1200+ turned up and the server implodedLaughing

Embarassed
Link please?

Recon Three
Palsies
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:30:00 - [318]
 

I heard if you stay in Jita too long you get AIDS.

ZENZATION
MeMento.
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:36:00 - [319]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 21/09/2008 23:29:06
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Faw'kin Friendly
What happends during these TEMPORARY few days could easy change the alliance wars/conflicts outcome all toghter, (Defending, POS jammers, POSīS Capital construction yards Etc) understand that this is probably the single biggest exploitable feature in years....

FFS CCP Close the server NOW!


Not going to happen.

The cap is at 800 as far as we can tell which means that only a handfull of super alliences have the manpower to pull it off. Having said that none will ever try to get 800 into a single system simply because the lag bomb it would cause would be so bad many couldnt load into the system and more would de-sync and disconnect.

Thats without taking into account the fact that the node would probably go into meltdown

800 man fleets are simply too large to work.

If defending a POS, the defenders have ~2 days to get the defenders (and their other accounts) into system. They don't have to move as a fleet.
I have 4 accounts myself and know this is more common than not in the best PvP alliances (4 might actually be low).

Then its simply a matter of starting to log them on as soon as possible after DT and just leave them there. If you do it cloaked in safespots their lag impact will be minimal. Remember they're not there to DO anything. They're just there to fill the system to the cap limit.

Alliances will start doing this as it offers a risk-less way of defending systems. If the cap is the aforementioned 800, then if each person in a 200 man defence fleet logs in 2-3 alts, the attackers will not get in.

This can of.c. be reversed for attackers.....

As I wrote in post #227, these will be legitimate paid for accounts. It'll be hard for CCP to declare this an exploit, particularly in light of their 'Power of 2' offer.
Who to accuse of exploiting? People who log in their legitimate alliance characters to play a game they pay for?


Agreed. Its only a matter of time before an alliance will attempt this. Either to take/defend the system or to prove a point to CCP.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:40:00 - [320]
 

Wow, a lot of people over-reacting to this topic, most notably Avon. I don't know you, Avon, but you are coming across like a huge screaming dork, if I were you I would edit all of your posts. I just read all 11 pages and you whining is pretty much the only thing I remember.

As it stands on TQ before this, if you put in 800+ people 23/7 you were pretty much invincible, but no one did this. You can't get 800+ people to stay in your system 23/7. Currently the NC can't get anywhere close to that number. I see no real change with 0.0 warfare.

Do you people really think that one day you will be reading a dev blog and the very last line will state: "Oh yeah, we fixed the lag, it seemed we had a zero lag button all this time and just decided to push it"

Fixing lag or any other cornerstone game mechanic is going to be a bumpy ride that will have its share of fail, so HOLD ON TO YOUR TIN FOIL HATS.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:52:00 - [321]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit

As it stands on TQ before this, if you put in 800+ people 23/7 you were pretty much invincible, but no one did this. You can't get 800+ people to stay in your system 23/7. Currently the NC can't get anywhere close to that number. I see no real change with 0.0 warfare.



Why 800+ NC alt? Even 600 is enough coz it limits hostile response to 200. 500 in system will leave 300 spots open. Heck even 400 with cyno jammer + titans/moms vs 400 conventional fleet will win. And 400-500 are achiveable by both sides. Thus this change might affect current gameplay in 0.0

Anonymous Troll
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:52:00 - [322]
 

Looks to me like CCP has a LOT of angry customers. Better sort your **** out CCP or you are going to pay for it.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:54:00 - [323]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 21/09/2008 23:55:03
SO if my character just happens to be parked in a system on a Sunday that has allot of players in it.....I can't log on????????


Did I miss something???




In case I did not and the dev's happen to read this. Such an Idea might work IF YOU WERE PROMPTED upon log in to be transfered to one of the nearest neighboring system. Make up some "In game reason" for it like when it talks about trash talking at gates or how "scotty the docking manager" is having problems.


Sitting in front of my PC waiting for my client to log in just because he happens to be in a busy system is A VERY unappealing notion for me......seriously. The above would be an easy and acceptable fix.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:55:00 - [324]
 

I'm sure it said "temporary" solution. Oh yeah here it is -

"This is a temporary solution to this issue, we are working on a permanent feature which has the highest priority and will be implemented as soon as possible."

So why all the drama?

C.



Anonymous Troll
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:55:00 - [325]
 

Originally by: Cailais
I'm sure it said "temporary" solution. Oh yeah here it is -

"This is a temporary solution to this issue, we are working on a permanent feature which has the highest priority and will be implemented as soon as possible."

So why all the drama?

C.





We have no faith left.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:57:00 - [326]
 

P.S. That does explain the issue my corp mate had who now has been on a new trial account for 2 days cause his character is still stuck in Jita limbo....

baltec1
Posted - 2008.09.21 23:58:00 - [327]
 

Originally by: ZENZATION
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 21/09/2008 23:29:06
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Faw'kin Friendly
What happends during these TEMPORARY few days could easy change the alliance wars/conflicts outcome all toghter, (Defending, POS jammers, POSīS Capital construction yards Etc) understand that this is probably the single biggest exploitable feature in years....

FFS CCP Close the server NOW!


Not going to happen.

The cap is at 800 as far as we can tell which means that only a handfull of super alliences have the manpower to pull it off. Having said that none will ever try to get 800 into a single system simply because the lag bomb it would cause would be so bad many couldnt load into the system and more would de-sync and disconnect.

Thats without taking into account the fact that the node would probably go into meltdown

800 man fleets are simply too large to work.

If defending a POS, the defenders have ~2 days to get the defenders (and their other accounts) into system. They don't have to move as a fleet.
I have 4 accounts myself and know this is more common than not in the best PvP alliances (4 might actually be low).

Then its simply a matter of starting to log them on as soon as possible after DT and just leave them there. If you do it cloaked in safespots their lag impact will be minimal. Remember they're not there to DO anything. They're just there to fill the system to the cap limit.

Alliances will start doing this as it offers a risk-less way of defending systems. If the cap is the aforementioned 800, then if each person in a 200 man defence fleet logs in 2-3 alts, the attackers will not get in.

This can of.c. be reversed for attackers.....

As I wrote in post #227, these will be legitimate paid for accounts. It'll be hard for CCP to declare this an exploit, particularly in light of their 'Power of 2' offer.
Who to accuse of exploiting? People who log in their legitimate alliance characters to play a game they pay for?


Agreed. Its only a matter of time before an alliance will attempt this. Either to take/defend the system or to prove a point to CCP.



Nobody has made a fleet of 800 and plonked it in a system for days on end. This tactic cant be defended against right now but equaly nobody is willing to try it.

Its just too many people in one place for too long, if the node doesnt give in first then it will be the pilots sick of lag and no action.

As I said the largest fight I have taken part in had just under 600 in a system. The lag was so bad that I had to wait 20 min for a command to go through. An hour after the fight started the node failed and seemed to take half of Venal with it. 800 would be just unplayable.

Cruel Crow
Aeon Interstellar Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.09.22 00:03:00 - [328]
 

956 people in jita yesterday - took 5 minutes to warp through.
Dont tell us its not impossible for jita to hit `1200

KristineKochanski
Posted - 2008.09.22 00:04:00 - [329]
 

Edited by: KristineKochanski on 22/09/2008 00:10:09
The Figure of 800 is being banded about for Jita which has it's own node. So guessing that 0.0 might have a whole constellation on a node that 800 per Solar system is likely to be much smaller.

In M-O this evening there was between 300-400 people and large numbers of players were repeatedly kicked from the server and then not able to log back in. By the way the "Press ESC and raise a petition" lags out too.

Why are the 0.0 player so angry? Because we have been telling CCP that lag is the main issue for ever and we are constaintly told "there is no lag", it's your connection, it's your PC.

Well it isn't it's getting worse and worse with ever new release so I'd say it's your programming. Capping systems is not the answer fixing lag is. This temporary "fix" will fast become perminent if nothing is said.

If you want to solve lag, find out why 30 CAPS lags the game as if there were 400 in system and a single Titan in local makes it unplayable.

**Edit**

Forgot to say what ever you did today appears to have made the game even less stable, please remove it immediately.

Camdim
Caldari
The first genesis
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2008.09.22 00:09:00 - [330]
 

A suggestion on how to fix Jita and other systems without putting population caps in place.

There are several systems in the game that can be called market hubs. Name these systems as such. And with the naming of these systems the following applies to these "market hubs".

No agents in any stations in the system. Relocate these agents to other systems.
Free transport of goods to systems one jump away from the market hub with in the same region. The goods transfer would be instantanous and require nothing special other then being with in one jump of the hub and in the same region.
Ensure that each market hub connects to at least 3 other systems in thier region.
Implement a bypass gate that keeps the route but allows the player to move past the market hub without ever really going into the system. This could be as simple as a pop up box that says enter hub or bypass to system 1 2 or 3?

This would allow the market hubs to maintain their current usages but cut down by alot who goes into the system. Mainly this would be limited to sellers only as buyers could access the goods and the market in areas around the market hub. And only sellers would need to enter the system to put thier goods up for sale.

This should take very little effort and time to put into place.



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