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Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2008.09.21 02:08:00 - [31]
 

Welcome back Wrangler, nice to see you again Surprised

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2008.09.21 02:35:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: CCP Wrangler
And whatever you do, do not visit Jita!



Could we get that as a permanent motd for the Eve client? Would make a lot of clueless lemmings lives easier though I'm sure the trolls would cry rivers. Very Happy

HotFudge
Posted - 2008.09.21 02:38:00 - [33]
 

F I X Jita.

Infact. F I X lag, WTF cares about shiny stuff - oh right.

Machine Delta
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.09.21 02:57:00 - [34]
 

maybe you should just shut down jita for the weekends until you can actually make it usable. It's been that way for over a year, it's quite depressing that entire regions have been added and a single system is still worthless 2 days of the week.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2008.09.21 02:59:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Machine Delta
maybe you should just shut down jita for the weekends until you can actually make it usable. It's been that way for over a year, it's quite depressing that entire regions have been added and a single system is still worthless 2 days of the week.
Ever try to find parking at a popular shopping mall near christmas time? Exact same situation only 365 days of the year. Blame the lemmings not CCP. ugh

Mankirks Wife
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.21 03:05:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Machine Delta
maybe you should just shut down jita for the weekends until you can actually make it usable. It's been that way for over a year, it's quite depressing that entire regions have been added and a single system is still worthless 2 days of the week.


Jita has been 'fixed' several times since I've been playing. But whenever Jita's capacity is increased, more people pile in until it lags again.

A real solution would be some sort of system that encourages people to spread out (scaling broker fees seem like a good idea and have been suggested several times) but nothing yet.

I do all my business in Jita during the week, and... *shocker* I never have any issues. I've never understood why so many people *have* to go on Sunday, when they *know* the lag will be terrible.

Anonymous Troll
Posted - 2008.09.21 03:38:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Treelox
dear wrangler,

Imo this should just be a sticky placed on the boards every weekend. Since some silly lemmings just dont get it.


Same "silly" CCP just can't fix it.

Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.09.21 05:36:00 - [38]
 

Does it need to be said that this is an UNACCEPTABLE situation for any MMO?

"it's broken, we can't fix it, screw you because we won't try" is a SOE type attitude.

Aeswynne
Caldari
Rognvald Corporation
Posted - 2008.09.21 05:55:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Aeswynne on 21/09/2008 05:56:20
A lot of problems in Jita are caused by the players, even though they know that Jita is crowded some people feel they have the divine right to carry on with their FW or War Decc battles, what they are to dim to comprehend is the fact is Jita has been a trade hub for years, traders will continue to go there whatever the PvP crowd think, the local government would soon call in the military to deal with anyone disrupting the smooth flow of things, in other words, CCP could very well decide that in Jita and similar trade hubs Concord would crack down on the idiots. This would cut down some of the lag.



Khraunus
Amarr
Black Forest Operatives
Posted - 2008.09.21 05:55:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Jack Gilligan
Does it need to be said that this is an UNACCEPTABLE situation for any MMO?

"it's broken, we can't fix it, screw you because we won't try" is a SOE type attitude.


Jita isn't broken, it's functioning perfectly. Eve's playerbase is what's broken.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2008.09.21 06:24:00 - [41]
 

Jita Laughing

Scott Woods
Caldari
Real Life Super Heros Inc.
Caped Vigilantes
Posted - 2008.09.21 07:37:00 - [42]
 

While people not going to Jita would help with lag, that's not a solution; you are effectively asking people not to play the game at all so that you can do so, and that defeats the purpose of a MMO.

The fact is, people PAY a monthly fee to be able to play the game when and where they want, going to the systems that they feel are worth there time. Asking people to not go to a system will never fix the problem, because the problem is that the system can not handle the load created by an ineffective economy created by bad game design (I say this as an amateur game designer and professional programmer). People pay money every month so that they can trade, build, etc, so it comes as no surprise to me that people actual want to do some of the things they pay money to be able to do every month, and the fact that people can't due to the Jita server being down is a BUG in the game, not something that people can fix by asking others not to play.

Jita is the Trade hub for Eve because such a thing has to exist if limits are placed on buying and selling such that one must be located at the site of business for a transaction to be created or accepted. Jita is the biggest and most effective store Eve has. We may have the ability to trade at any station, but if anybody wants to make any business happen the sellers must find customer willing to buy and the customers willing to buy must be able to find sellers. Just like in the real world trade hubs must exist, and the game design did not take that into account. Anybody who knows anything about economics knows that a market can not exist without a focal center to buy and sell, and while other places exist in Eve, the largest of these places is Jita and it will always be that way, unless another system becomes the new "Jita".. and if that happens we will just start complaining when it goes down instead.

So here is what CCP needs to do:
1. If Eve is truly running on a super computer instead of a bunch of virtual cloud based web services behind an F5 based load balance (That's how I would do it) like CCP claims, then they need to think about the hardware and upgrade the Jita virtual nodes resource allocation to something more beefy, or otherwise create a central market system to replace it.

2. They need to start thinking of node down time as a cost expense to both CCP and back to the customer; As a customer I fully expect a refund or other small deduction from my monthly bill if I cant play the game I pay money for because a major system was down. I'm not kidding.

A list of possible alternatives to make Jita more market friendly:
1. All agents/missions should be removed from Jita; This includes other systems sending people to Jita to do something mission related. Everybody wins.
2. Use of any type of weapons in Jita will result in CONCORD/Private Trade Army opening a can of beat-down. Doesn't matter why, fire a weapon and your ship is dead. Missions runners wont be hurt because we took them out of the picture with #1 above.
3. Give the dev's a book on code optimization; Every developer I have known cares about his code enough to want it to be the fastest it can be, and if they don't care than any dev that does not care about his/her code should be replaced.
4. Give the test org (I really hope CCP has a test org) funds to get the best static code/data analysis/auditing tools available.

I hope this little rant helps; CCP can contact me by any means they have to discuss this more if they want. I just want to help.

Adam C
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.21 08:54:00 - [43]
 

CCP dont take this the wrong way. How could you let it get this bad? You do not need to centralize the market like that in the the way where it disrupts players.. if you dont understand that then I'm sorry for you.

Want a solution? Cap everything sold in that system.. problem solved.

C4LYP50
Solarwind Interstellar Mining and Production Ltd
Posted - 2008.09.21 09:04:00 - [44]
 

The post above made me laugh so hard. Thanks for that, really.
There was so much in it that was just plain wrong, from "move everyone out except the traders and their customers" to "Jita should be the only totally safe "Complete Security" system in the game" (no one allowed to shoot AT ALL??? In Eve? WTFBBQPWN yourazz for even THINKING that in a dark corner for a millisecond), and on to some nonsense about how "customers need to find sellers and vice versa" (Hai2U Market bar).
I'll try to avoid a complete troll on that response by making a few observations of my own:

The problem of lag in Jita is player caused. I need an item? Of any kind? NP, I won't waste time with the market bar, Jita is only X jumps away, it'll have everything I need. Why should I buy local and pay more? In a nutshell "Attention, WalMart shoppers..........."

Moving to WalMart (Jita) to sell your items, (installing an alt at 4-4 say) is the root of the problem. So many peeps have done this. Of course, these alts don't usually manufacture or do combat or mine, they are purely trained up for market warfare. And who brings them their goodies? Another alt or a main! Better yet, lets have a CORP or Alliance alt to sell crap there, and EVERYONE can bring supplies to it and contract them over. Yay!

This leads to a vicious cycle of so many players in one system. Its like a black hole. The more mass (players) it takes in, the more it PULLS gravitationally.

Jita is unlikely to be able to be permanently fixed by programming code, while these underlying factors of PLAYER BEHAVIOR exist. What's needed, IMHO, is players to change their mindset on "having" to buy or sell in any one system, just because "that's where the rest of the herd is grazing".

Just my .02 isk.




Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.09.21 09:22:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: khosta
I dont get it. Just when will people learn to not go to Jita during peak times?

You can still trade, even at peak times, using remote trade skills. Just dont go there to pick stuff up until off peak hours. How hard can it be?
Very, apparently… Shocked

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2008.09.21 09:23:00 - [46]
 


There are plenty of ways to ease the load on the Jita system....

Removing of npc agents is a good step in the right direction, but that alone is not gonna be enough.

Players will always flock to where they can buy everything they need in 1 place or sell their wares quickly at competative prices.

I use Jita myself to sell my wares because i can sell them much quicker and at much better prices than i can anywhere else.

The only way to ease the load on Jita is to allow players to be able to trade in Jita whithout actually having to go into Jita.

Heres a couple ways to achive the above...

Linky

The above ideas will allow you to easerly avoid Jita if you have no interest in the system, or be able to trade in Jita without having to enter the system and risk getting stuck.

Scott Woods
Caldari
Real Life Super Heros Inc.
Caped Vigilantes
Posted - 2008.09.21 09:42:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: C4LYP50
The post above made me laugh so hard. Thanks for that, really.


You are welcome.

Originally by: C4LYP50

There was so much in it that was just plain wrong, from "move everyone out except the traders and their customers" to "Jita should be the only totally safe "Complete Security" system in the game" (no one allowed to shoot AT ALL??? In Eve? WTFBBQPWN yourazz for even THINKING that in a dark corner for a millisecond), and on to some nonsense about how "customers need to find sellers and vice versa" (Hai2U Market bar).


I never said that. Re-read it again. I spoke of a 'strict zone', and it was only an option, not "you must do this". And besides, they are already doing part of what I suggested by moving agents out of Jita.. the rest are simply an extension of actions already being taken.

Originally by: C4LYP50

The problem of lag in Jita is player caused. I need an item? Of any kind? NP, I won't waste time with the market bar, Jita is only X jumps away, it'll have everything I need. Why should I buy local and pay more? In a nutshell "Attention, WalMart shoppers..........."


And people will always do that; you cant force people not to want to waste time or effort when an easier option exists, even if you disagree with it, it will always happen.

Originally by: C4LYP50

Moving to WalMart (Jita) to sell your items, (installing an alt at 4-4 say) is the root of the problem. So many peeps have done this. Of course, these alts don't usually manufacture or do combat or mine, they are purely trained up for market warfare. And who brings them their goodies? Another alt or a main! Better yet, lets have a CORP or Alliance alt to sell crap there, and EVERYONE can bring supplies to it and contract them over. Yay!


I agree. But the game makes that profitable, and to change that would be to change the entire game. The only way I can see around it is to bump the number of characters people can have on a single account down from 3 to 1, and that's not going to happen.

Originally by: C4LYP50

This leads to a vicious cycle of so many players in one system. Its like a black hole. The more mass (players) it takes in, the more it PULLS gravitationally.


Yes, that is why people play play a MMO (Massivly Multiplayer Online) game, for the interaction (powning?) of other people. As such, people go where the other players are. That's a fundamental part of the game, and the very basis of the game.

Originally by: C4LYP50

Jita is unlikely to be able to be permanently fixed by programming code, while these underlying factors of PLAYER BEHAVIOR exist.


Yes, the issue is social. In fact, this problem exists because the game is the type of game it is.

Originally by: C4LYP50

What's needed, IMHO, is players to change their mindset on "having" to buy or sell in any one system, just because "that's where the rest of the herd is grazing".



Wait, So you want people to play a multi-player game by themselves? That does not make any sence at all. Why would I or anybody else pay money every month to play a multi-player game by myself? You are making no sense at all.

Originally by: C4LYP50

Just my .02 isk.



I'm sorry, but what your saying makes no sence at all, and in my humble opinion is not even worth 0.02 isk. The fact is Eve is a Multiplayer game, so it should support multiple players instead of crashing. This is a BUG, the game should support multiple people in an area; 1020 people is not really that much, I have seen far larger numbers of users (admittedly doing less) on MUD servers I have written myself. Its not impossible, and many other games do it fine.

Jana Clant
New Dawn Corp
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2008.09.21 10:06:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Captain Agemman
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We kindly ask those players heading to or through Jita to adjust their route to avoid the system.
Any suggestion how to reach the Maurasi/Itamo/... systems while at the same time avoiding Jita?


This. Give us an alternate route for Itamo already!

Mankirks Wife
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.21 10:24:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Scott Woods
Wait, So you want people to play a multi-player game by themselves? That does not make any sence at all. Why would I or anybody else pay money every month to play a multi-player game by myself? You are making no sense at all.

I'm sorry, but what your saying makes no sence at all, and in my humble opinion is not even worth 0.02 isk. The fact is Eve is a Multiplayer game, so it should support multiple players instead of crashing. This is a BUG, the game should support multiple people in an area; 1020 people is not really that much, I have seen far larger numbers of users (admittedly doing less) on MUD servers I have written myself. Its not impossible, and many other games do it fine.


So what you're saying is that to be a successful trader you have to operate out of Jita?

I do just fine operating out of Oursulaert and hauling stuff to/from the surrounding regions (Sinq Liason, Essence, Verge Vendor) and my freighter never even thinks about going to Jita. If I get an uber-rare mod.. then maybe.. but even then it's a covops run and I'm only there for 10 minutes.

Scott Woods
Caldari
Real Life Super Heros Inc.
Caped Vigilantes
Posted - 2008.09.21 10:33:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Mankirks Wife

So what you're saying is that to be a successful trader you have to operate out of Jita?


No, but if you want to, you should be able to and not have the system crash.

Originally by: Mankirks Wife

I do just fine operating out of Oursulaert and hauling stuff to/from the surrounding regions (Sinq Liason, Essence, Verge Vendor) and my freighter never even thinks about going to Jita. If I get an uber-rare mod.. then maybe.. but even then it's a covops run and I'm only there for 10 minutes.

That is your choice; Others make the choice to go to Jita. Either way, we should both have the ability to choose what system we want to buy/sell in, no matter how crowded it may get. That is a part of basic economics, the ability to choose where to sell/buy.

C4LYP50
Solarwind Interstellar Mining and Production Ltd
Posted - 2008.09.21 11:35:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Scott Woods

Originally by: C4LYP50

The problem of lag in Jita is player caused. I need an item? Of any kind? NP, I won't waste time with the market bar, Jita is only X jumps away, it'll have everything I need. Why should I buy local and pay more? In a nutshell "Attention, WalMart shoppers..........."


And people will always do that; you cant force people not to want to waste time or effort when an easier option exists, even if you disagree with it, it will always happen.

So, you WANT to "waste time and effort" in Jita, when you COULD just move a system or two over and reduce your own lag, and you WANT to "waste your time and effort" here at the forums whining about it. Amirite?


Originally by: C4LYP50

Moving to WalMart (Jita) to sell your items, (installing an alt at 4-4 say) is the root of the problem. So many peeps have done this. Of course, these alts don't usually manufacture or do combat or mine, they are purely trained up for market warfare. And who brings them their goodies? Another alt or a main! Better yet, lets have a CORP or Alliance alt to sell crap there, and EVERYONE can bring supplies to it and contract them over. Yay!


I agree. But the game makes that profitable, and to change that would be to change the entire game. The only way I can see around it is to bump the number of characters people can have on a single account down from 3 to 1, and that's not going to happen.

Are you not ASKING for changes to the entire game? If you are, why not just "suggest" that market orders be suspended when the avatar owning them (toon, not account!) is logged out? Can't combat PVP when your logged, can't mine, can't run missions. Why should you be allowed to sell stuff and engage in PVP while you aren't even online?

Originally by: C4LYP50

This leads to a vicious cycle of so many players in one system. Its like a black hole. The more mass (players) it takes in, the more it PULLS gravitationally.


Yes, that is why people play play a MMO (Massivly Multiplayer Online) game, for the interaction (powning?) of other people. As such, people go where the other players are. That's a fundamental part of the game, and the very basis of the game.

O yeah. Its an MMO with HOW MANY HUNDREDS OF SYSTEMS to play in, most of which contain other players. What I'm hearing you say is this: "You can't call it an MMO unless we can pack 1200+ people in 1/1200th of the game area without lag. And I have to be one of them." Welcome to internetz =)

Originally by: C4LYP50

Jita is unlikely to be able to be permanently fixed by programming code, while these underlying factors of PLAYER BEHAVIOR exist.


Yes, the issue is social. In fact, this problem exists because the game is the type of game it is.

What an ABSOLUTE COPOUT. If you are selling, buying, running missions, pvping etc. in Jita, YOU are part of the problem. Don't expect CCP to make ALL the effort here.

Originally by: C4LYP50

What's needed, IMHO, is players to change their mindset on "having" to buy or sell in any one system, just because "that's where the rest of the herd is grazing".



Wait, So you want people to play a multi-player game by themselves? That does not make any sence at all. Why would I or anybody else pay money every month to play a multi-player game by myself? You are making no sense at all.

I suppose to YOU, I am not, since you like to hear it your way, and spin it until it until it makes the rest of us hurl. Trying to put ridiculous words in my mouth so you can troll them (and by extension, yourself) is not a good strategy to get others onside. It fools no one.


Just my .02 isk. Which is more than you have upstairs.


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