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blankseplocked Jita is not the mall of tonight.
 
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whisk
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:20:00 - [61]
 

if they could make so you can buy and sell stuff from systems next to jita and have stuff auto moved to your system if you buy or to jita market if you sell,

Marked Prospectus
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:23:00 - [62]
 

Why? Just make it possible to set a "delivery" contract at purchase time. People who don't mind waiting in queues will move it for the ISK. And the "benefit" of Jita diminishes. I could draw parallels to the RL economic crisis at hand, but I think it'd fail to get through the thick skulls of the local hooligans.

Ivar Strahm
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:24:00 - [63]
 

I vote for Asheron's Call-style Portal Storms. Just imagine, you go to Jita, it lags, then you wake up somewhere in Heimatar low-sec with shiny purple bubbles all around your ship!

Marked Prospectus
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:29:00 - [64]
 

I wish it just lagged. That'd be nice. Every time I've been stuck it's black screen for days, clear temp & cache same ****. Been this way for me since 2005... Only thing that's different is the quantity of scrubs in Jita propper.

eno wocK
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:29:00 - [65]
 

Why can't CCP just make jita and maybe 1 jump to it a diff server?

i know they plug a shardless environment.

Keep the rest of the universe on one server but make jita and mission systems separate servers obviusioy still in comms with the main one.

The jump gates between systems could easily act as a server jump

baltec1
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:32:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: eno wocK
Why can't CCP just make jita and maybe 1 jump to it a diff server?

i know they plug a shardless environment.

Keep the rest of the universe on one server but make jita and mission systems separate servers obviusioy still in comms with the main one.

The jump gates between systems could easily act as a server jump


They have, jita runs on its own dedicated server and just got upgraded to hold 1000 players. But yet again people just kept on turning up untill it lagged once moreRolling Eyes

Heiwa
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:34:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: eno wocK
Why can't CCP just make jita and maybe 1 jump to it a diff server?

i know they plug a shardless environment.

Keep the rest of the universe on one server but make jita and mission systems separate servers obviusioy still in comms with the main one.

The jump gates between systems could easily act as a server jump


Ummm...you do know that Tranquility is actually hosted on a butt-ton of different, physical servers and that the jump gates work in precisely this way, right? And that Jita already has its own node in the system, right?

Marked Prospectus
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:35:00 - [68]
 

Speaking as a Systems Engineer shame on CCP for letting more than capacity on the server. Of course it hangs. Perhaps one day they'll think logically about problems like this instead of blaming the victims like the previous poster did.

LuckyPenny
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:41:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: baltec1


They have, jita runs on its own dedicated server and just got upgraded to hold 1000 players. But yet again people just kept on turning up untill it lagged once moreRolling Eyes



Excellent news. That indicates the devs are listening to their customer base. Let's hope they continue to take the issue seriously. As long as customers are just experiencing normal lag during peak periods, improving hardware was probably the right approach. However, if hardware doesn't solve the problem and people can't even login then a software change also needs to be done, provided it is kept the minimum necessary to allow people to login and leave the system. Perhaps when people login to the game, it should check if they are in jita, and give them a menu option to move their character elsewhere if the game is lagging?

Marked Prospectus
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:42:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Marked Prospectus on 20/09/2008 22:43:03
Edited by: Marked Prospectus on 20/09/2008 22:42:36
Another sensible solution to the problem. Keep going, maybe if we throw enough of em at the great wall of CCP one'll stick.

Heiwa
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:44:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Marked Prospectus
Speaking as a Systems Engineer shame on CCP for letting more than capacity on the server. Of course it hangs. Perhaps one day they'll think logically about problems like this instead of blaming the victims like the previous poster did.


Oh boy! A "Systems Engineer"! Then I'm sure you know the two possible, practical paths CCP can take to solve this problem.

1. Let people keep logging on until the lag brings everything to a crashing halt. Result: Customers complain because they can't play the game.

2. Set a hard and fast limit per system or cluster and introduce log-in and/or jump queues, and don't let people in until other people have left. Result: Customers complain because they can't play the game.

CCP waves between both of these paths, depending on the system and what's going on in it. And until some crazy, new, sci-fi supercomputer comes along that can handle 200K+ users on a single machine, this is all they can do. But of course, you'd already know that, on account of being a "Systems Engineer".

Marked Prospectus
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:47:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Heiwa

CCP waves between both of these paths, depending on the system and what's going on in it. And until some crazy, new, sci-fi supercomputer comes along that can handle 200K+ users on a single machine, this is all they can do. But of course, you'd already know that, on account of being a "Systems Engineer".


Remove the foot from your mouth and read the other sensible solutions posted. Each one has it's merits, and there aren't just 2 solutions to any problem at the very least there's always three:

Leave it alone.
Change it.
Quit.

LuckyPenny
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:55:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Heiwa


Oh boy! A "Systems Engineer"! Then I'm sure you know the two possible, practical paths CCP can take to solve this problem.

1. Let people keep logging on until the lag brings everything to a crashing halt. Result: Customers complain because they can't play the game.

2. Set a hard and fast limit per system or cluster and introduce log-in and/or jump queues, and don't let people in until other people have left. Result: Customers complain because they can't play the game.

CCP waves between both of these paths, depending on the system and what's going on in it. And until some crazy, new, sci-fi supercomputer comes along that can handle 200K+ users on a single machine, this is all they can do. But of course, you'd already know that, on account of being a "Systems Engineer".



I honestly don't think there would be near as many complaints with the second option if you added to it:
a) When the wait queue's for any jump gate reaches a high number, customers should be required to confirm intent to enter the queue before being added.
b) when the wait queue for any jump gate reaches a high number, that size or estimated wait time should be displayed as part of the confirmation request

If the above is done, then we are looking at a solution that really is no different than what happens when you call a bank or go to the DMV, etc...."We are experiencing high usage, current estimated wait time is 60 minutes, are you sure you want to enter the wait queue to jump to the system?"

Essentially, if CCP is giving people all the information and having people confirm their intent to proceed, than I think customers will understand. At least then, the complaints will be redirected from "gah, I can't login.....CCP isn't responding to any of my complaints....this game sucks" to "Uhm, what do we have to do to upgrade this server more or how can perform the functions we wanted to do elsewhere?".

I'm guessing that most people would click on cancel on entering the queue and therefore be able to play the game on the days they have free rather than waiting for off peak hours.

Heiwa
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:56:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Marked Prospectus
Remove the foot from your mouth and read the other sensible solutions posted. Each one has it's merits, and there aren't just 2 solutions to any problem at the very least there's always three:

Leave it alone.
Change it.
Quit.


Hmmm...I didn't see any sensible solutions. I only saw, you know, the same collection of armchair developers and engineers that crawl out of the woodwork any time they think they've magically found the solution that somehow eluded CCP. I mean, and this is just speaking as a Cross-Dressing Austrian Goat Herder ( <-- see what I did there? ), it would seem that if there was some easy, or even moderately difficult trick they could use to make the lag go away, or to solve the Jita/Black Hole problem, they'd, you know, do it.

But then, I'm not a "Systems Engineer", so what do I know?

eno wocK
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:06:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Heiwa


Ummm...you do know that Tranquility is actually hosted on a butt-ton of different, physical servers and that the jump gates work in precisely this way, right? And that Jita already has its own node in the system, right?


nope didn't know that. every day is a school day :)

Marked Prospectus
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:09:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Marked Prospectus on 20/09/2008 23:10:00
You don't know when you don't know enough.

I don't know the particulars of their system so I can't say something like:

Well why don't they simply spread the load across multiple systems?

I have no way of knowing if the Chat service, local market, Coordinate tracking engine, or any of the other things that should be modular, are. If you were designing something that's truly "shardless" even a system shouldn't have an upward limit.

In the days when you couldn't shift load around a computing cloud seemlessly this sort of thing is commonplace, but where it's easy to do (and even can be automated rather easily with the right tools.) Setting up load based availability across the farm of machines CCP has should be trivial. (But it's apparently not, or I wouldn't be sitting at a black screen for the past 5 hours.)

The typical solution, as of 5+ years ago, was to setup queues. The solution for 10+ years ago was to setup queues, and to kick people out for inactivity.

You also pointed out, the need for a server that can handle 200,000 users. The requirement here is a server to run the nnumber of users present in Jita. Not the number of user's you'd like dancing and praising your satire. Someday perhaps, but it's got to get better than the kind of drivel you read on Neopets forums.

Heiwa
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:17:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Marked Prospectus
Edited by: Marked Prospectus on 20/09/2008 23:10:00
You don't know when you don't know enough.

I don't know the particulars of their system so I can't say something like:

Well why don't they simply spread the load across multiple systems?

I have no way of knowing if the Chat service, local market, Coordinate tracking engine, or any of the other things that should be modular, are. If you were designing something that's truly "shardless" even a system shouldn't have an upward limit.

In the days when you couldn't shift load around a computing cloud seemlessly this sort of thing is commonplace, but where it's easy to do (and even can be automated rather easily with the right tools.) Setting up load based availability across the farm of machines CCP has should be trivial. (But it's apparently not, or I wouldn't be sitting at a black screen for the past 5 hours.)

The typical solution, as of 5+ years ago, was to setup queues. The solution for 10+ years ago was to setup queues, and to kick people out for inactivity.

You also pointed out, the need for a server that can handle 200,000 users. The requirement here is a server to run the nnumber of users present in Jita. Not the number of user's you'd like dancing and praising your satire. Someday perhaps, but it's got to get better than the kind of drivel you read on Neopets forums.


Why bless my soul, that's right! You don't know the intimate details of how CCP have implemented Tranquility. And that's kind of my point.

And yes, you would actually need a server capable of handling the total number of accounts that can log onto Tranquility in order to guarantee a lag-free experience for all. Oh, and your phrase "the number of users present in Jita" is meaningless, at least it should be for a "Systems Engineer".

Captain Budwieser
LFC
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:17:00 - [78]
 

for the people that keep blaming players for going there ill recount my little story of tonight

i was in jita previously perhaps 3 hours ago and eventually had be rescued by a gm and moved 1 jump backwards to where i had come from along with a message that said "jita is broke please dont go in there". Ok fair play things might be bad but at least im free once more so i address the problem that i was originally faced with - to find myself a new ship and rejoin the fight. When i open the market and look for a ship i find the first 15 cheapest/closest prices that come up are in jita, but i go out of my way and buy my ship and my modules, 1 by 1 traveling around (i could have got everything in 1 station in jita never mind) and eventually i only need 1 more module
I travel into a low sec sytem to pick up the final module just as a new gang is forming and i think to myself hmm if i hurry ill get in on that.... unfortunately for me when i undock there are a couple of pirates outside the station and i get killed, i was only drawn into that system because i was avoiding jita remember, and no doubt it was the highlight of their evening to see me come in
So off i go in my pod, i spose i cant really blame the pirates, but the unfairness and bad luck of this is really ****ing me off now, i didnt want to go there but then again if i wanted to fit my ship i had to go somewhere and what could i really do ? take a 50+ jump round trip to get my stuff? if i had i would probably still be at it now and long missed the gang i wanted to join.So anyway i dock up grab myself a noob ship and set my dest for jita again... i havent really got much choice have i? except to hope that almost 2 hours after being moved out of jita on a stuck petion that it might be better now. I jumped in and watched the system fail to load for about 10 minutes and then put a film on... the film was the directors cut of Gladiator and he has just carved up the two centurions that were going to execute him."the frost - sometimes it makes the blade stick" :) jita has still not loaded...

i started out, starting my oringal trip to jita at about 19:30 my time and its now 00:09 i have never been so completly disalusioned with eve. If its not lag in jita its lag in fleet battles... where has the fun gone? eve seems to have lost its way bigtime

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:22:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 20/09/2008 23:22:19
Quote:
23:14:25 Info Dear players. We are currently undergoing technical difficulties involving the Jita solarsystem. We kindly ask those players heading to or through Jita to adjust their route to avoid the system. Anyone entering Jita at the present time will get stuck and unfortunately it will take considerable time until we can respond to your stuck petitions. We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience this has caused. Best regards, EVE Online Customer Support Team


Laughing sounds like jita is the place to beYARRRR!!

Marked Prospectus
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:27:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Heiwa

Why bless my soul, that's right! You don't know the intimate details of how CCP have implemented Tranquility. And that's kind of my point.

And yes, you would actually need a server capable of handling the total number of accounts that can log onto Tranquility in order to guarantee a lag-free experience for all. Oh, and your phrase "the number of users present in Jita" is meaningless, at least it should be for a "Systems Engineer".


No, because that's a ridiculous requirement. There aren't 200,000 users logged on simultaneously. A "lag free" experience is not required. An expected service level is what's required. The service level being: a user being able to login and perform nominal tasks within an acceptable timeframe.

Load testing, and performance analysis for system design is projected based on actual use, not possible use. With buffer room built in for growth. 33,000 users are on right now, with 3% of the users on one server. A cluster of application servers sharing a common database cluster could do this job, if the tasks were easily made parallel. However, the design doesn't speak to this (or at least the available information leads us to believe.) And don't think hundreds of servers, a pair of servers might be enough, with a node control agent doing the rest. We'd have to see what's there.

Hell, I know pieces of what CCP does do (based on their Hiring pages as of a year ago) is run on MSSQL, which can be clustered further lowering the individual load. Chat servers and Messaging servers for years have spread the load around the world(Think IRC, NNTP etc.) The question isn't whether it can be done, but whether it's practical to do so.

Amonse
Caldari
Fire-Storm
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:32:00 - [81]
 

damn jita lag flew in to get my rokh never even got there. CCp needs to fix this immediatly. pretty soon youll see systems like hek and kisogo crawling with life and marketing

ADVISE:DO YOUR BUYING IN SELLING IN NEW CALDARISad

Ard UnjiiGo
Meatshield Bastards
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:42:00 - [82]
 

Have got all my alts setup as traders and never once been to Jita. Yup, I use the other trade hubs. Wink

But thanks to the entitled whining, I'm going to move a couple of them to Jita (don't trade as much anymore) and whenever I plan to be afk or doing something else, I'm going to log them in. Then whenever I walk by the computer I'm going to adjust a market order by .01isk.

Why? Because the problem will get solved faster if the people solve it and not CCP. I know, I know - radical thinking here. So, I'm going to do my small part to drive all the spoiled lemmings elsewhere.

Your welcome, in advance.

Marked Prospectus
Posted - 2008.09.20 23:45:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Marked Prospectus on 20/09/2008 23:46:48
You're absolutely right, the people will solve it. They'll quit, as my wife did the 10th time she got stuck in jita years ago, and as many corpmates I knew who got stuck in other scenarios did (fleet battles etc.)

CCP Wrangler

Posted - 2008.09.20 23:49:00 - [84]
 

Please continue the discussion in this sticky thread. And whatever you do, do not visit Jita!


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