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blankseplocked Is there any HONOR in PVP here?
 
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Dun Bynar
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.11 13:21:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Dun Bynar on 11/01/2009 13:21:48
For the most part you have heard from the hi sec low sec crowd, as for those that live in 0.0 which by the way makes up the vast MAJORITY of space in EVE, your word, or you lack of it defines YOU, your corp and your alliance. Lotz of people live, play, and quite EVE before ever really experiancing what is quinticentially EVE, many more try to make it and fail, moving back up hi sec, and usually migrate into low sec as the empire just doesnt cut it for them anymore, but they fail to cut it in 0.0. usually for the very reason you inquire about...a lack of personal ethics, and an immature personality. not 100% mind you, but the majority. get out of hi sec, it was never intended to be anyones permanant home, and those that have experianced unfettered living... long for the ability to attack you, but lack the ability to exist where they dont need a war dec to do it.

Lisento Slaven
The Drekla Consortium
Posted - 2009.01.11 15:28:00 - [122]
 

Honor is nothing more than a social construct used by those in power.

EVE is not based on the construct of honor, it is based on money (power and money can be used interchangeably here) and the players ability in attaining that money. Everything you do in EVE revolves around taking or losing isk, except for those moments when people do stuff for "fun" (which may or may not be true, since the attainment or loss of isk will most likely be occurring).

If you study the concepts and uses of social constructs throughout history you will see certain trends. Honor in particular is used by people in power to keep their subordinates under their control. It is typically "dishonorable" to do anything that would harm your lord. In fact, it is "honorable" to "serve" someone (for free, because if you charge something then there is nothing honorable or noble about that). When it comes to historical fact my knowledge is limited to examples similar to those I have put above. But in modern times you can see this being thrown around a lot. Honor differs from group to group but it is typically used to maintain the status quoe in a group of people.

Just another way THE MAN holds you down!

This coming from someone who tries to be "honorable" in real life even to this day. Of course I put my own twist on it...

Dun Bynar
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.11 15:55:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Dun Bynar on 11/01/2009 15:55:36
Originally by: Lisento Slaven
Honor is nothing more than a social construct used by those in power.

EVE is not based on the construct of honor, it is based on money (power and money can be used interchangeably here)..blah blah blah... .


first off in any sociaty one needs iskies or money to do and abtain........but it is never about the $....the $ is the avenue.....and if he were to look a bit deeper he would find that honor and keeping ones word has always been important...especially between those NOT in power....criminals throughout history have argued there was no reason to do so...only because they want to FEEL they are normal. eve is no different...you have the WoW crowd who just dont get it, and the kids....but for the most part those that inhabit the vast majority of eve space are adults who honor themselves and their word..if you can get them to give it. The Wow crowd and the kids live in low sec and hi sec.....and a few 0.0 corps for brief periods of time till they realize they have to be able to follow and keep their word...then back to hi sec / low sec they go in search of those that expect nothing from them.

Lisento Slaven
The Drekla Consortium
Posted - 2009.01.11 16:06:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Dun Bynar
Edited by: Dun Bynar on 11/01/2009 15:55:36
Originally by: Lisento Slaven
Honor is nothing more than a social construct used by those in power.

EVE is not based on the construct of honor, it is based on money (power and money can be used interchangeably here)..blah blah blah... .


first off in any sociaty one needs iskies or money to do and abtain........but it is never about the $....the $ is the avenue.....and if he were to look a bit deeper he would find that honor and keeping ones word has always been important...especially between those NOT in power....criminals throughout history have argued there was no reason to do so...only because they want to FEEL they are normal. eve is no different...you have the WoW crowd who just dont get it, and the kids....but for the most part those that inhabit the vast majority of eve space are adults who honor themselves and their word..if you can get them to give it. The Wow crowd and the kids live in low sec and hi sec.....and a few 0.0 corps for brief periods of time till they realize they have to be able to follow and keep their word...then back to hi sec / low sec they go in search of those that expect nothing from them.


You haven't exactly said anything that counters the point I was trying to make in my post. You also over-generalize and assume things very bluntly (WoW crowd and "kids" live in low-sec and hi-sec").

This isn't about keeping ones word, as in some groups there is nothing honorable about weakening or limiting yourself to the things you say you'll do.

Please re-read my post. Honor is used to maintain groups and the status quoe, typically by those in power. What is so honorable about keeping your word to a horrible person for example? As long as you never find out he's actually a horrible person or that the things he's telling you to do (aka protect your homeland/corp assets/POS's he's using to line his own pockets on the side) are actually twisted facts of reality, while you are acting under this notion of "honor".

Dun Bynar
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.11 21:44:00 - [125]
 

lis,
heres the deal on your position, and the very same position that many over the mellenia have attempted to support....YOU are not responsible for what other people do....only for what you do.
So... does one honor their word to someone of questionable or terrible personal ethics...but of course, if your own ethics are to have any meaning.
You see,.. typically those in power rarely have the ability to demonstrate ethics, organizations, governments do not have ethics. They have rules, policy, and procedures, each seperate from the other and having nothing to do with silly things like honor, or honesty.
As for my GENERALIZATIONS, they are based on behavior,activity, and the trend in the last year in those types of corps....also based on viewing those individuals over the past few years who have failed at 0.0 living and where they migrate to, and what types of corps they end up in. The young are convinced they are unique, there behaviors,and opinions fresh and new...and therefore unclassifiable...nothing could be further from the truth...they are as easily definable as they are common.

Lisento Slaven
The Drekla Consortium
Posted - 2009.01.11 23:19:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Dun Bynar
lis,
heres the deal on your position, and the very same position that many over the mellenia have attempted to support....YOU are not responsible for what other people do....only for what you do.
So... does one honor their word to someone of questionable or terrible personal ethics...but of course, if your own ethics are to have any meaning.
You see,.. typically those in power rarely have the ability to demonstrate ethics, organizations, governments do not have ethics. They have rules, policy, and procedures, each seperate from the other and having nothing to do with silly things like honor, or honesty.
As for my GENERALIZATIONS, they are based on behavior,activity, and the trend in the last year in those types of corps....also based on viewing those individuals over the past few years who have failed at 0.0 living and where they migrate to, and what types of corps they end up in. The young are convinced they are unique, there behaviors,and opinions fresh and new...and therefore unclassifiable...nothing could be further from the truth...they are as easily definable as they are common.


Honor to one group of people is not honor to another group of people. Certain acts are honorable based on the society and their rules.

Across all groups of people honor is usually an extension of maintaining control over the group of people.

If you look at society's where honor is imposed by the government (feudal systems such as the ever so popular Samurai bushido etc. stuff in Japan or the idea of chivalry and feudal serf systems) then it's not a matter of the government demonstrating their own ability to be "honorable" by whatever definition they set down. It's their ability to control people and get them to do things.

I'm not sure if we're arguing the same thing anymore =)

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2009.01.12 00:13:00 - [127]
 

The honor in EVE is in losing well. Whine and cry and smack talk when defeated is childish.

Dun Bynar
Caldari
Posted - 2009.01.12 00:21:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Dun Bynar on 12/01/2009 01:54:59
I suppose the point which you wish to defend and support is that honor is a social construct.... and that it is a meer tool used to control the mass.
your tool of support is the Bushido social stucture of japan, as well as the draconian feudal lord system of the middle ages.
To be honest you are failing to grasp abuse of human nature, as apposed to constructed design for such abuse. Humans in the vast majority while selfish in nature, long for social interaction, and even before any of thse examples, even before written history, man kind developed social standards of behavior in order for the MASS to interact with each other....and since that time there have been those who both abused such, and did not honor such....These were cast out of early social structures, later those that could not abide nyy them were either ostricized or placed in dungeons and later jail/prisons.
So while some may well abuse the honor of the mass's they did not construct honor for that purpose.
in closing i say to you again while ou are not responsible for the actions of others you are indeed accountable for your own..if ingame you choose to be a toon of no ethics..that is a choise, but your rationalizing that all or most are that way or that those that are not, do so out of some insidious control is unfounded, and unsupportable.


Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2009.01.12 03:44:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 12/01/2009 03:53:50
Got Flamed?




Here is the thing...

Why do pilots sit outside of stations while other pilots pitch a tent, start a fire and get ready for a long week?


Is this fun? Is this profitable? Perhaps it is good practice for PVP?


Unless they are mercs making some very tediously earned ISK, they are doing this cause its all they can accomplish presently. They cant survive in low sec, they sure cannot claim territory in 0.0. And apparently they cant mobilize any real tactics VS another corp of equal strength and willingness to fight. This is the art of griefing.


Carebears in empire make the very ships they are flying. But they however also offer easy jollies and glimmers on their kill boards. As a pilot breaking into PVP, I have been striving for AF killmails and faction ships from the onset. A steady list of ore ships and haulers is far from impressive.

Best killmail of all time was a friends... Navy Omen beats Armageddon \0/ WooT!! Now thats impressive.

Whats not is how my last Ibis kill (who was an irritating can flipper) was flagged as a solo kill and made me "the most dangerous of us all" on my corps killboard LOL. Amusing considering roams in 0.0 with my corp mates (group HAC and recon kills mind you) yielded less favorable results then a single, soloed, popped Ibis.

I am steadily at number 1 and no one can seem to remove me of my crown as "most dangerous" Neutral I think Eve needs a better point and rating system.



P.s.


Try typing this into local: "Grifers are carebears too..." their responses are always predictable. Laughing




Navtiqes
GoonWaffe
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2009.01.12 08:02:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
The honor in EVE is in losing well. Whine and cry and smack talk when defeated is childish.

End of discussion. Joe nailed.

Gwendalyne
Caldari
SolarStone Syndicate
Posted - 2009.01.13 08:24:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Gwendalyne on 13/01/2009 08:25:37
<<<================EDIT: CURSE YOU, EVIL EXCLAMATION MARK !!!

...Wow. Shocked

I usually don't ever see any thread I make reach longer than 1 or 2 pages... To be honest, I wouldn't have if someone had not Eve-mailed me about it.

The entire thread seems to be centered on "Honor is self-imposed", etc. While I agree, I would like to know this: Why, if it's only self-imposed, do people take advantage of it?

If honor is only about what you feel, then lack of it would be nothing more than someone who disagrees with your view. So why then, do people go about the disagreeing so flagrantly and obnoxiously (i.e. e-peen waggling) when it technically wouldn't illicit a response (being self-imposed, it wouldn't bring about any) ?

This goes to further my definition of 'griefing' to include: Those who provoke arguments, for their sole sake, and aside from anything else that happens, especially bad things to them. (As long as they get their victim to whine, they win)

This would seem to fit with your agreed-on definition of PvP, which is to gain ISK at the expense of someone else, right? So then, griefers are the ones who don't care about losing ISK, or even about their targets losing any, as long as they make other people hurt.


Kazami Kozura
Posted - 2009.01.13 09:11:00 - [132]
 

There IS honour ingame

- let enemy pods leave the system after a good fight
- no smack in local
- go into a 20vs20 fight and not waiting for backup

Problem is, that only counts for 0.0
as soon as you are in lowsec or highsec, there is nothing called honour.
Theres only smack and scam

Vampasha
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.13 12:27:00 - [133]
 

What does war dec have to do with honour?

(I honour every fight I win)

Originally by: Gwendalyne
However, in the two months I have been in my corp, I am now sitting in station twiddling my thumbs during our THIRD grief-week. Do you guys hate carebears that much?


blackmambasnake
Posted - 2009.01.13 12:44:00 - [134]
 

Very Happy
Originally by: Lars Lodar
Don't listen to the trolls.

I've been a professional pirate for quite some time now and I can tell you that my friends and I take honor very seriously. We never dishonor a ransom or planned fight such as a 1v1. Reputation is very important for most pirates as it's a good way to make isk.

Last night I challenged 2 Myrmidons to fight my drake. I killed one and got the other to structure as my guns broke from overheating due to unresponsive modules. I probably could have escaped but I stuck to my word and let him take the kill. We talked for some time afterward and he even tried to recruit me.

Stuff like that happens all the time at least in small fights in low sec. Just gotta have a good attitude and treat your opponent with respect whether you win or loose.



u use guns on a drake? Rolling Eyes Very Happy

Vampasha
The Scope
Posted - 2009.01.13 12:51:00 - [135]
 

The mind boggles Idea

Originally by: blackmambasnake
Very Happy
Originally by: Lars Lodar


u use guns on a drake? Rolling Eyes Very Happy

Dickens Cider
Posted - 2009.01.13 18:21:00 - [136]
 

When I necro'd this thread last weekend, I didn't mean for you all to keep posting.

I know, I did it on purpose, but now I just feel sorry for you all.


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