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Syringe
Incura
Posted - 2008.09.18 14:51:00 - [61]
 

The honor here is that you have just as much opportunity to defend yourself as they have of attacking you. Either you hire a mercenary corp to get rid of them, or you fight. If you can't do either, I would suggest reconsidering how your corp is structured. In fact, I would start considering how some other corps are structured (i.e. quit yours)

Round House
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Posted - 2008.09.18 16:38:00 - [62]
 

I like how people want honor on a video game Confused

Torrstar
Perkone
Posted - 2008.09.19 12:27:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Torrstar on 19/09/2008 12:27:35
Best answer to this I can give is this quote I read,

"In EVE no one gives a damn about a fair fight."

Now me, there's things I won't do, like can-flip miners, or bait noobs with cargo containers, but that's a personal choice, and I don't expect anyone else to live by my code.

And I'm not that noble, when out in a roaming gang, I have no problems chasing down a hapless solo victim and blowing them out of the sky, none of this one on one, mano a mano stuff, I want to win with overwhelming odds at my back.

Because, in the end, winning is all that matters.

You can bring honor to your combat in EVE, just don't expect anyone else to and you'll never be disappointed.



Lateraal
exiles.
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2008.09.19 13:24:00 - [64]
 

honestly i beleave that you will find more honest players in lowsec then in highsec.
the pirates in lowsec only want to pvp and care less about grief play. they lose ships and consider it normal, nobody will cry over a loss. how can you grief over something that is not a loss.

tho the carebears of empire are the ones that are corrupt. they are greedy and disrespectufull. not knowing how to play the game of pvp they try to make up for it by hurassing there own carebear kind.

AltBier
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.09.19 15:53:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Jimer Lins
The only honor in PVP is that which you bring with you.


Heh heh, thank you for my new sig. Very Happy

Plim
Gallente
Everything Financial
Posted - 2008.09.19 16:16:00 - [66]
 

I've actually seen plenty of honor in EVE over the years.

Be it from corp mates willing to back you up against unlikely odds, to people honouring 1v1s, and so on.

I see nothing odd about 'honor' in a video game, because this is an MMO, it's big part of the game, much of it wouldn't function without some degree of community and fraternity. Even amongst pirates honor (honesty) is important if they want to make sure people will pay ransoms and their corporations to continue to exist.

I was -10 on another character for a long time. And I would still keep my word. I would gank randoms all day, but I couldn't lie in an agreed 1v1, or not honor a ransom, that wouldn't sit well with me at all.

This all depends on what you mean by 'honor', it's a very subjective idea. I don't think it's 'dishonorable', when you get ganked by people you don't even know, or scammed. Because that's part of the game mechanics. I do not not find it 'dishonorable' when someone puts me in check in a game of chess, because I had to create the pre-conditions to get there within a shared set of rules, the same is often true in EVE. The EVE mechanics usually don't let someone get hurt, unless they put themselves in a position where they can be attacked in some way.

The term 'griefing' is used way too often. Though I can understand people being frustrated if they come underattack when they are complete noobs. However, that is often how people learn pvp in this game.

Zaragram Sarikusa
Posted - 2008.09.19 16:37:00 - [67]
 

Everyone has their own rules of engagement, but there's no real overarching code of conduct other than the game rules. You can be as honourable as you want, but it's obviously going to place you at a disadvantage to people who aren't following your personal rules. You will find forms of honour within various communities of the game, in this forum there is certainly a stigma associated with people who break ransom and 1v1 agreements, but the people who do can still find likeminded players to enjoy the game with even if it may stop them from joining some of the better known and respected pirate corps.

ellie mayer
Posted - 2008.09.19 17:36:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Ikaa LoveYums
Honor is this game? Doesn't exist Rolling Eyes


nor does pvp, just gank or run tbh

Jimer Lins
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.09.19 17:37:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: AltBier
Originally by: Jimer Lins
The only honor in PVP is that which you bring with you.


Heh heh, thank you for my new sig. Very Happy


Hah, no worries.

Dire Radiant
Posted - 2008.09.19 17:41:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Gwendalyne

Hmmm... Well, you have a point, in that the definition of honor is subjective.

I suppose to me, honor is less about doing something to **** people off, and more about being honest when someone asks you about it. By that definition, nothing in itself is worth any honor, but is made such by your attitude on the subject.



You hit the nail on the head right here. Being honorable is sticking to your word.

Originally by: Gwendalyne

In EVE... Well, killing is fine. Theft is fine. Betrayal is low, but fine by me.


Wait... Betrayal is breaking your word and is dishonorable. Now you are saying that its fine by you?

Originally by: Gwendalyne
What I don't like is, people who aim to gain absolutely nothing of value from making people suffer as much as possible.


This has nothing to do with honor. You find all of the mixes. Dishonorable Carebears. Honorable Griefers.

Gwendalyne, I think you are confused and do not really know what you are complaining about here. For one part you say being dishonorable is bad, then you say its fine, then you say griefing is bad which really has nothing to do with honor.

jimmyjam
Gallente
Sinner Among Saints
Exquisite Malevolence
Posted - 2008.09.19 21:06:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Gwendalyne
First off, I would like to make it clear that this thread is being made in earnest -- if it trolls, it certainly wasn't the intent.

I am a devout carebear, having come from a long line of MMO's with (Optional) PvP in them. I actually used to like PvP until I played those games, at which point the extremely childish attitudes of people made me cringe. Bad typing, overuse of PVP jargon and the general obsessive need to shout at the top of one's lungs, "MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ" left me with a bad taste.

Here I come upon EVE, and see that it's (within limits) a whole game worth of PVP. I actually did NOT cringe, because I knew that, in the usual case of all-world PVP, there was going to be some sense of honor involved. Unspoken rules, political en'tandre, things like that...

After reading this forum a while (mostly for the lulz) I have yet to see this honor, yet I know it exists here SOMEWHERE. I can see the PVP community is more mature here (though you still need to work on the phallus wielding part) so I am pleased. However, in the two months I have been in my corp, I am now sitting in station twiddling my thumbs during our THIRD grief-week. Do you guys hate carebears that much?

So basically, I am confused as to how this game's PVP seems the same as the rest, even though I KNOW it's different.

Please be kind when you post -- if you feel you must flame, at least be objective when you do it.

Honor is in the eye of the beholder.Some see it some dont some use it and some dont.

Ambrosious Martin
Anarchist Movment
Posted - 2008.09.19 21:19:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Lars Lodar


Last night I challenged 2 Myrmidons to fight my drake. I killed one and got the other to structure as my guns broke from overheating due to unresponsive modules.
Quote:



WTB a drake with turret hardpoints!!!


Grandis Fustis
Destry's Lounge
Posted - 2008.09.19 21:23:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Lateraal
honestly i beleave that you will find more honest players in lowsec then in highsec.
the pirates in lowsec only want to pvp and care less about grief play. they lose ships and consider it normal, nobody will cry over a loss. how can you grief over something that is not a loss.

tho the carebears of empire are the ones that are corrupt. they are greedy and disrespectufull. not knowing how to play the game of pvp they try to make up for it by hurassing there own carebear kind.



I could'nt agree more Very Happy

Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
Posted - 2008.09.19 23:00:00 - [74]
 

Your pretty gay or stupid to accept a 1vs1. Your either going to setup your ship for duels aka no pvp mods or have someone else do the same on your ship. It takes a redock and ship fittings screen to win most duels.

Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
Posted - 2008.09.20 04:43:00 - [75]
 

/poasting in fail e-honor thread

Keeves
Minmatar
Quality Control.
Posted - 2008.09.20 08:15:00 - [76]
 

Ive done every type of piracy. Highsec, lowsec, and just lately nullsec and I'll have to admit highsec piracy has by far the most character to it. Elitists like to build themselves up by saying nosec or even lowsec is where real pvp is done, and i agree that an opponent is usually more compitent in those theatre's, the process of pvp is alot more entertaining in highsec since there is alot more social manipulation and playing with your target, like a cat plays with a mouse, then in lowsec or nullsec.

That being said, don't expect any honor from highsec pirates cause you won't get it. They are literally there to screw with people and no other reason. If you expect any different you are just letting yourself down. heh... i miss highsec haha much more of a hunt then anywhere else...

Nubswarm001
Posted - 2008.09.20 08:43:00 - [77]
 

ha! Honour. In eve...

Damned Yanks...polluting the English language... Honour!

Gwendalyne
Caldari
SolarStone Syndicate
Posted - 2008.09.20 09:25:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Gwendalyne on 20/09/2008 09:29:54
Edited by: Gwendalyne on 20/09/2008 09:28:57
Edited by: Gwendalyne on 20/09/2008 09:28:13
Edited by: Gwendalyne on 20/09/2008 09:27:37
Edited by: Gwendalyne on 20/09/2008 09:26:32
Okay guys, I have a few things to clear up here...

First off--

Originally by: Feilamya
I have read all of the op.

His point is that he has no problem with PVP, unless it happens to him.


Uhhhh, self-contradictory post fails? If you HAD read the post you would find I have no problem with being blown up. Or ganked, or owned, or whatever you want to call it. Read on please...

Second--

Originally by: Tasuk
It is griefing only in your eyes. In their eyes it is winning the game as each time they score a victory over your corp they feel good about themselves for winning at internet spaceships. And there is nothing wrong in feeling good about winning games, it is only natural. Each player vs player conflict will have a winner and loser. To label the winner "griefer" when you are losing just because your gaming experience was ruined is a form of covered up smacktalk and is just childish imho.


When two ships fight, with somewhat equal skill levels, OR somehwt equal tactics, and one loses, the other is the winner.

Now, if the loser has no weapons to fight with, the winner becomes an opportunist.

And if the loser's gaming experience is ruined by this, that's unfortunate, but the winner is still only an opportunist.

BUT... When the winner KNOWS ALL OF THIS, and HAS IT IN HIS MIND, to kill someone, NOT for a killmail, NOT for their ship's contents, NOT for an easy kill, and ONLY to make his victim hurt, THAT makes him a greifer.

===============
Now, Ted Thompson may be quite an idiot, but to a much lesser degree, he is right. The Internet (TM) allows us to express, in the EXTREME and UNPUNISHED SENSE, the kind of desires we have in our hearts. That does NOT mean all people who kill others in video games have any compunction to do it in real life, but KILLING someone in a game is the extreme and un-punished version of... perhaps simply insulting them?

So as much as you people would like to say you wouldn't steal from people in RL like you do in EVE, ask yourself what feelings theft in EVE brings you, and I would BET something you do in RL gives you the same feeling.
===============

Originally by: Dire Radiant
Gwendalyne, I think you are confused and do not really know what you are complaining about here. For one part you say being dishonorable is bad, then you say its fine, then you say griefing is bad which really has nothing to do with honor.


Let me try to make it simple... I hope. Anything goes as long as the reason for it isn't "HAHA how miserable did I make you feel!!" and nothing else.

Originally by: Keeves
Ive done every type of piracy. Highsec, lowsec, and just lately nullsec and I'll have to admit highsec piracy has by far the most character to it. Elitists like to build themselves up by saying nosec or even lowsec is where real pvp is done, and i agree that an opponent is usually more compitent in those theatre's, the process of pvp is alot more entertaining in highsec since there is alot more social manipulation and playing with your target, like a cat plays with a mouse, then in lowsec or nullsec.

That being said, don't expect any honor from highsec pirates cause you won't get it. They are literally there to screw with people and no other reason. If you expect any different you are just letting yourself down. heh... i miss highsec haha much more of a hunt then anywhere else...


I think this is the kind of people warring with us... If they were lowsec types they would much rather get better things from people WITH them, right?


=================
Could someone tell me WTF is up with those last two quotes not working? --Never mind, fixed--

weedmasta
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.09.20 11:13:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: weedmasta on 20/09/2008 11:14:42
There is no honor in killing people whether on a virtual environment or in real life. Who ever thinks there is honor in destroying something is a fool who is fooling himself. You won't have honor if you kill a guy yourself or with 5-10 people, in the end you are killing/destroying something. Some people choose a more discrete more challenging approach whereas many others choose the easy streak (like wardeccing a highsec industrial corp.)PVP is not about honor, it is about how much ballz you got which determines the targets you choose to shoot at.

edit: errors

Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.09.20 14:58:00 - [80]
 

Honor....

Video game....

Honor.....

Video game.....

Honor.....

Video game......

Well crap. That ain't working.

I'm going back to mixing oil and water.

Oil.....

Water.....

Oil.......

Water...................




.

Demitria Fernir
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.09.20 15:02:00 - [81]
 

Honor in PVP is just like a mix of salt and sugar.







It sucks.

Reptar Dragon
Total Mayhem.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.09.20 22:29:00 - [82]
 

Why do you need honour in PVP, just need a keyboard with F1-F8 keys. After that it isn't PVP, it's just communicaiton.

Garok Nor
Caldari
Blueprint Haus
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2008.09.21 00:09:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Gwendalyne


Hmmm... Well, you have a point, in that the definition of honor is subjective.

I suppose to me, honor is less about doing something to **** people off, and more about being honest when someone asks you about it. By that definition, nothing in itself is worth any honor, but is made such by your attitude on the subject.

In EVE... Well, killing is fine. Theft is fine. Betrayal is low, but fine by me. What I don't like is, people who aim to gain absolutely nothing of value from making people suffer as much as possible. Griefers do this well, but Pirates don't seem to, and they both PvP, soooo......

I apologize to the REAL pirates I may have offended, and refine my statement to be: I don't mind PvP'ers, I just abhor griefing for sport.


Quote:
I ended up cussing the other one out, causing him to re-engage. I will know now to keep my mouth shut.


That'll get you griefed every time IMHO. I woulda popped you too, and would have had some strong words with my buddy (privately) if he suddenly turned ******ed and compensated you after you got popped for smacking. Generally speaking, verbally abusing someone who could cause you serious harm removes any high ground (real or imaginary) you might have. It's also not much of a deterrent either, usually makes them want to kill you more. Well that and whining. I think pvp ships are actually fueled by it.

just MHO YMMV

Monkey Saturday
Unknown Soldiers
The Spire Collective
Posted - 2008.09.21 00:42:00 - [84]
 

If you try to win a fight by fighting honourably, not only in Eve, but in real life too, you're doing it very wrong.

Sin Fae
Operational Detachment-Alpha
Posted - 2008.09.22 05:27:00 - [85]
 

There is plenty of honor, you have plenty of options, and Eve is different in that you are experiencing non-consensual PvP and are forced to interact with other people in this online game.

As many have said, fight back, pay someone to do it, or sit in a station and twiddle your thumb, or pay whatever ransom the pirate corp is telling you to pay, make friends (actually use social skills and rally other corps to join with your fight), etc etc.



V1123
Posted - 2008.09.22 05:39:00 - [86]
 

I am assuming by honor you mean desire to be fair, like having fair fights when it comes to e-combat in video games. No, majority of people do not experience such a desire. They do not want to be fair to you. They want to win. There is a small percentage that wants to have fair fights but not because of you, but because of them, they don't get a kick out of it if the fight isn't challenging. The rest could not care more about being fair.

It is same in video game as it is in real life, only in video game you also have an option of remaining forever anonymous and your actions have no real consequences (because hey, it is just pixels) so whatever inhibitions people had in real life to acting unfair get really lax in video games. So remember this and never expect anyone to act "honorably" so that later it doesn't come as any surprise to you.

Yuki Valentine
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.09.22 06:08:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Jimer Lins
The only honor in PVP is that which you bring with you.




Sad but true

YARRRR!!YARRRR!!

Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
Posted - 2008.09.22 06:26:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Gwendalyne
Here I come upon EVE, and see that it's (within limits) a whole game worth of PVP. I actually did NOT cringe, because I knew that, in the usual case of all-world PVP, there was going to be some sense of honor involved. Unspoken rules, political en'tandre, things like that...

After reading this forum a while (mostly for the lulz) I have yet to see this honor, yet I know it exists here SOMEWHERE. I can see the PVP community is more mature here (though you still need to work on the phallus wielding part) so I am pleased.


Yes, there is honor in EVE--however you define it. There's just no guarantee that Pilot X shares a Sense of Honor Y.

The Mag
Gallente
Aces and 8s
Posted - 2008.09.22 11:52:00 - [89]
 

Honor does exist in EVE:

Im mining away in my brand new shiny hulk with cargo rigs, with less than 100AU on its gauges. Almost full, my eyes widen in amazement of how much velds I will be able to pack in her every trip to station.

A small crusier warps in to the belt, I notice a yellow streak across the pilots name and a dreaded skull and cross bones imprinted on the icon. No worries me thinks, I'm not mining into a can anymore this flipper will go away.

He ABs to my position in the belt, I think he might want to bump me out of my lasers range so I tighten my seat belt and wait for the G-force to begin. I sense hes targeting me WTF, I hit warp drive only to realize im not aligned to station, a haze immediately appears around ship I'm not warping I recieve massive damage to shields and armour, and seconds later Im instant warping in my egg.

I get to station, look at my selection of ships and grab my hauler warp to the scene of the crime and grab whats left of my stuff. Back in station, I place my newest arch enemy on my hate list and log....upset kicking dirt smoking...

2 hours later logon,I cant believe it my newest enemy is in station with me, pulse rate taching, look up at my selection of ships, dam no PVP capables, search ah hah DOMI same system, undock in shuttle, full speed ahead, dock wait for scotty, board the DOMI, check setup eeh best I can do for now.

Rush back to original station, to my amazement he still there,yes, undock, position 15k, convo...

"Hey you cost me dearly and Im outside waiting for payback."

Answer "LOL"

"Come out you afraid to fight a armed ship"

Answer "LOL I'm in a shuttle you can blow that up if you like or I can go get a PVP ship 6 jumps"

"I'll be at the scene of the crime"

Pilot returns to system and then returns to the scene of the crime. I ask How is this going to go down"

Answer "take my can" Out pops a can.

Realizing that if I take the can hes corp will gank me I check system for corpies, wow none, I take the can. Battle begins, heart racing, watching my shields go and then his, my armour disappears and so does his, down to hull Im pounding away and so is he, just as I think I have my revenge.

Im back in my POD warping to station.

In station recieve convo " good close fight"

My answer " yep"

Granted this is probably rareSmile

Pippan
Gallente
Jupiter Force
Posted - 2008.09.22 11:52:00 - [90]
 

Heh if you mean honour as in not sending in your falcon alt to save you from that 1v1 that went bad your gonna be looking a long time =]

The players that can actually take a loss and not whine and ***** and seek revenge via metagaming are usually far less vocal than the ppl who scam/extort/metagame/grief ect. ect. (especially in this forum ^_-)

I for one try not to dishonour 1v1's and stuff. But if they start remote repping with corpmates or theyr being a whiny f*ucker i have no moral doubts about logging on a scmitar or a snipy corp tempest =]


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