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Paradox H
Caldari
Immortalis Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:04:00 - [31]
 

Op,

If you're entering your 3rd week of being camped I'd suggest having a word with your corp mates who are obviously giving away easy kills. Most griefing corps will stop bothering you if they are getting no kills for their killboard.

In my experience most empire war-decs are done for the pvp - mostly dishonourably. YOU ARE AT WAR SO EXPECT TO BE GANKED. 1 V 1 is for WOW and people flashing their epeens.

Honour is a lovely concept but is ultimately a form of self-imposed restriction... Most pvp'ers are in the game for the killmails no matter how they are acquired, so why would one restrict the ways in which we can obtain them?

eddie valvetino
Caldari
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:11:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Ikaa LoveYums
Honor is this game? Doesn't exist Rolling Eyes


post with you main.

Yes there is honour, when I pirate, if the guys pays me, he buys the rest of the day. If 1vs1.. I never bring mates.

My word is my bond

Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:26:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Gwendalyne
First off, I would like to make it clear that this thread is being made in earnest -- if it trolls, it certainly wasn't the intent.

I am a devout carebear, having come from a long line of MMO's with (Optional) PvP in them. I actually used to like PvP until I played those games, at which point the extremely childish attitudes of people made me cringe. Bad typing, overuse of PVP jargon and the general obsessive need to shout at the top of one's lungs, "MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ" left me with a bad taste.

Here I come upon EVE, and see that it's (within limits) a whole game worth of PVP. I actually did NOT cringe, because I knew that, in the usual case of all-world PVP, there was going to be some sense of honor involved. Unspoken rules, political en'tandre, things like that...

After reading this forum a while (mostly for the lulz) I have yet to see this honor, yet I know it exists here SOMEWHERE. I can see the PVP community is more mature here (though you still need to work on the phallus wielding part) so I am pleased. However, in the two months I have been in my corp, I am now sitting in station twiddling my thumbs during our THIRD grief-week. Do you guys hate carebears that much?

So basically, I am confused as to how this game's PVP seems the same as the rest, even though I KNOW it's different.

Please be kind when you post -- if you feel you must flame, at least be objective when you do it.


There certainly is honor in PvP in this game.

The sum total of it is displayed in a side corridor of one of the trade centers in Jita system [we don't know where exactly it is, it gets moved a lot as the janitor is doing his rounds - go see the shift supervisor, I'm sure she's seen a picture of it during her training initiation, it's a small wooden cupboard with a Veldspar ornament on top, shaped like an e-peen].

Honor is used as a marketing ploy in this game. The pirates insist they have it [they go to Jita too, maybe they've even seen the ornament] so people will hand over ransom money after which they get blown up anyway, for although the pirate claims he has honor, he's not the one who actually has it -this specific week-. Some people here have no problem with the cognitive disconnect that they should be trusted even though they just tried to blow up your ship without prior aggression. In fact, not trusting them despite that expedient only serves as a clear indication of your mental deficiency. It's all "how they play the game" you see.

It has to be acknowledged that aggression in this game is lawful and that you should prepare for it even if you were not the one who engaged in it. I can see legitimate grounds for aggression outside of piracy.

But that is not where honor comes in [in its most vocal form]. What galls me is that it is invoked by the people who insist they have the right to harm you and that you should accept and celebrate that because it's part of how they want to play the game [and they want to be rewarded for it on top of that!].

EVE -is- an awesome game and it offers great PvP opportunity [a lot more fight than you think you're up for, especially when you're a carebear] if that is what you are looking for.

What you should abandon is the notion of honor. Some people genuinely have it, but it would be asking entirely too much to scan the breadth of the universe to map it out exactly, as I'm sure you'll agree.

Do not count on honor. Assume that this is a concentrated form of real life, where trust is a quintessentially
fragile commodity. Trust no one if you can help it.

There is a way out of twiddling your thumbs for 3 weeks in station. If you're interested to find out how, talk to me in the game universe.

Abulurd Boniface
ME ME
CEO



Zedrik Cayne
Gallente
Standards and Practices
Posted - 2008.09.17 13:45:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Zedrik Cayne on 17/09/2008 20:43:09
Originally by: Redback911
Honour your corpmates

Honour your Blues

Honour your ransoms

Kill and rip off everything else.


This...

And other than an R and an H.. There is no HONOR in PVP here.

H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits Academy
The Gurlstas Associates
Posted - 2008.09.17 14:08:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Abulurd Boniface
Some people here have no problem with the cognitive disconnect that they should be trusted even though they just tried to blow up your ship without prior aggression.


Yes, I'm allowed to kill you and will do so repeatedly if there is an opportunity (in game)!
And definitely yes, you can trust me that I will honor this statement.

Very Happy



Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.09.17 14:22:00 - [36]
 

To be honest with you, OP...

While we do have our contingent of WoWtards and CounterStrikers Anonymous, a good section of the combat pilots out there are mature adults.

But most of us don't see the point in e-honor. At the end of the day, this is a sandbox (or close to it these days...) where you define what is acceptable and unacceptable at a personal level. I personally don't have any problems lying to you if I have a reason to, nor do I have any problem with stealing or sabotaging another a target.

Its part of the game in my book. But concepts like honor are subjective and should not be expected from everyone, or else you're going to be bit in the ass a lot.

Kyle Klanen
Posted - 2008.09.17 14:41:00 - [37]
 

I don't think the OP is talking about honouring ransoms or doing right by people who do you right i think hes on about pvp in a queensbury rules sense, for an example "we wont bring ECM and we will only bring 4 people in cruisers" and both sides agree and stick to it.

OP should try pen and paper RPGs he might have more luck.

Gwendalyne
Caldari
SolarStone Syndicate
Posted - 2008.09.17 16:47:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Lady Karma
Edited by: Lady Karma on 17/09/2008 01:46:27
When I see OP's like this I am tempted to say, all kinds of rude things.

Instead I will throw the question back, how do you define honour? For me it is not backstabbing people that trust me. And you know what, I earned that trust. So for those guys, I am honourable, to the rest of you...**** off Laughing

I don't give a rats ass about some random idiot in a ship.

Edit: Agreeing with redback


Hmmm... Well, you have a point, in that the definition of honor is subjective.

I suppose to me, honor is less about doing something to **** people off, and more about being honest when someone asks you about it. By that definition, nothing in itself is worth any honor, but is made such by your attitude on the subject.

In EVE... Well, killing is fine. Theft is fine. Betrayal is low, but fine by me. What I don't like is, people who aim to gain absolutely nothing of value from making people suffer as much as possible. Griefers do this well, but Pirates don't seem to, and they both PvP, soooo......

I apologize to the REAL pirates I may have offended, and refine my statement to be: I don't mind PvP'ers, I just abhor griefing for sport.

Paradox H
Caldari
Immortalis Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.17 17:02:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Gwendalyne
In EVE... Well, killing is fine. Theft is fine. Betrayal is low, but fine by me. What I don't like is, people who aim to gain absolutely nothing of value from making people suffer as much as possible. Griefers do this well, but Pirates don't seem to, and they both PvP, soooo.......[/quote



Griefing brings it's own rewards such as an amusingly full killboard. Slapstick humour in the way you might point and laugh "Why did he undock?"...."Why would he fly a mining Ferox while at war?" I'm afraid other peoples misfortune / stupidity (sometimes one causes the other) will always be a source of fun for some people. I include myself in this even though I consider myself a mature adult. There is obviously a line... but I'm not sure it's crossable (is that a word?) in an internet spaceship game!

DeltaPhalanx
Caldari
Hordes Of Belial
The Undecided Alliance
Posted - 2008.09.17 19:53:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: eddie valvetino
Originally by: Ikaa LoveYums
Honor is this game? Doesn't exist Rolling Eyes


post with you main.


He posted with his PvP main; what more can you ask for?

Jonny 101
Posted - 2008.09.17 20:14:00 - [41]
 

Honor is an idiotic term choked to death in its infancy by its subjective nature.

To put that in c and p speak.

Honor is just the grown up version of "i'm right you're wrong neeeener!".

Neo Rainhart
Guerilla Republik
Excuses.
Posted - 2008.09.17 21:25:00 - [42]
 

MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ...

(and no there is no honor Razz )

Landrassa
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
Posted - 2008.09.17 21:35:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Neo Rainhart
MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ...

(and no there is no honor Razz )


My Phallus-shaped ship has 7 phallus-shaped weapons on it. Your turn Cool

FoulBeast
Gallente
Starwinders
Posted - 2008.09.17 21:40:00 - [44]
 

My double ended Phallus shaped weapon has 16 small phallus shaped blasters on it (hype with electrons)

Daitetsu Minase
Posted - 2008.09.17 22:00:00 - [45]
 

Honor is a lie.

Trust is something else.

But a man's word is all he has in Eve. So a lot of people will choose to accede to a request for a 1 v 1, or to give a ransom.

But in a world with corp-spies, corpthiefs, blatant metagaming encouraged by the devs (Thank you so much, power of two.) :-(, Goons, and BoBBers, honor is naught but a lie.

But a man's word is something else. I may gank you from behind with a sniper-fit ship, but if I have time to ransom you, and you pay, I let you go. That way I don't provoke you any further, and you don't pay a merc corp to come and pod me repeatedly.

But that's not honor. It's good business sense.

Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2008.09.17 22:31:00 - [46]
 

I have read all of the op.

His point is that he has no problem with PVP, unless it happens to him.

Kailiao
Mean Corp
Mean Coalition
Posted - 2008.09.18 03:18:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: ApaKaka
There is no honor in PVP in EVE. Even when you are evenly matched in forces and only player skill will decide the outcome, people will not engage you on equal terms, so you have to trick them, or they trick you.

PVP is all about trickery and psychology, making yourself seem weaker than you are, luring the opponent into traps, boxing them in where they can't escape and so on.

The only "honorable" pvp that can happen is 1v1, which is completely uninteresting except as an excercise in mine-is-bigger-than-yours rhetoric.

On the other hand, I prefer it like this, the warm fuzzy feeling you get after a successful psychological trap is unbeatable, and oftentimes you get more even and equal fights this way than if people had agreed to fight 10 ships against 10 ships, period.



Lol, how many times have you failed at pvp, before you came up with this lame excuse Rolling Eyes

(Cowards run and hide, use trickery, and a overwelming force to win battles, nothing wrong with this tactic, but the fact that you will never be rememberd is something to think about)

4 vs 13 is the way i like it mate, and i do well at it, it's not that hard to fit a ship right.

Antman159
Caldari
Psykotic Meat
Posted - 2008.09.18 03:19:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Redback911
Honour your corpmates

Honour your Blues

Honour your ransoms

Kill and rip off everything else.


This guy knows what he's talking about.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2008.09.18 03:31:00 - [49]
 

What is this "honor" you speak of? It sounds remarkably like "honour", the concept of judging a person's trustworthiness or social status based on his or her past actions and their treatment of others, but I could be wrong.

Karrade Krise
Posted - 2008.09.18 05:15:00 - [50]
 

Honor is rare, and common all at the same time in EVE. It's really hard to tell who is honorable or not. *depends on your view of what's honorable*

I've played the pirate for most of my eve career. The best examples of honor I can find in EVE is Eve Online Poker, and certain pirate corps/individuals that honor ransoms.

Pirates whom dishonor ransoms are dispisable by more experienced pirates because by killing the ransomee you're making him not want to pay the next time he gets caught, which means the rest of us honorable 'rats don't make money when we catch the same guys Evil or Very Mad

Tasuk
Posted - 2008.09.18 07:13:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Gwendalyne
In EVE... Well, killing is fine. Theft is fine. Betrayal is low, but fine by me. What I don't like is, people who aim to gain absolutely nothing of value from making people suffer as much as possible. Griefers do this well, but Pirates don't seem to, and they both PvP, soooo......

I apologize to the REAL pirates I may have offended, and refine my statement to be: I don't mind PvP'ers, I just abhor griefing for sport.

It is griefing only in your eyes. In their eyes it is winning the game as each time they score a victory over your corp they feel good about themselves for winning at internet spaceships. And there is nothing wrong in feeling good about winning games, it is only natural. Each player vs player conflict will have a winner and loser. To label the winner "griefer" when you are losing just because your gaming experience was ruined is a form of covered up smacktalk and is just childish imho.

If your corp was smart they would have prepared for this. You do this by either keeping members pvp-ready or a much easier option for carebear corps that do not enjoy pvp is to have a wardec savings account which you can use to hire someone to protect you. If you are in a noobcorp, soz, that's just the risk you take when joining noobcorps. But if people in your corp have been playing 3+ months they should have seen this coming and got prepared.

Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2008.09.18 08:42:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: eddie valvetino
Originally by: Ikaa LoveYums
Honor is this game? Doesn't exist Rolling Eyes


post with you main.

Yes there is honour, when I pirate, if the guys pays me, he buys the rest of the day. If 1vs1.. I never bring mates.

My word is my bond


Honour means nothing in an online game.

Azuse
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.09.18 10:20:00 - [53]
 

Correction, it means nothing to some people. Honour is a very personal concept which is not necessarily applicable to any mmo in general though. Eve is full of good people, but piracy is role-play and really, mugging people isn't a very honourable occupation is it Laughing.

Unless you're involved in role play war decks, you're odds of finding an honourable assailant are quite low around here m8.

Commoner
Caldari
The Tuskers
Posted - 2008.09.18 10:23:00 - [54]
 

Honor, lovers your profit. Best to fight on your own terms.

Aesheera
Amarr
PWNED FACTOR HOLDINGS
Posted - 2008.09.18 10:59:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Aesheera on 18/09/2008 11:04:04
Originally by: Paradox H
Most pvp'ers are in the game for the killmails no matter how they are acquired, so why would one restrict the ways in which we can obtain them?


I doubt this.
Killmail w***es are out there and everybody participates in it at some point.
But if EVE would lose the killmails completely, I wouldnt really be bothered.

Its the fights you want, not so much the text you can get afterwards.
Besides, a ransom pleases me quite a good bit more too.

As far as honor goes:
Honor ransoms, 1v1s and every other gentleman's agreement you make.
Outside of that: if it bleeds, kill it.
Combat pilots, industrialists - its all good.
No remorse, no care for w/e life's work that hauler might have in its cargo or how much work that guy put in to afford his Rattlesnake.

Lock, Point, blow up, move on.

Thamuzz
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.09.18 11:48:00 - [56]
 

There is honour.

(In my awesome honour tankLaughing)

Diehard Si
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2008.09.18 12:14:00 - [57]
 

YOu enter Eve, you think ...'Oh this seems nice and relaxed'. You get chatty to people, it seems a nice place.

WRONG

Eve is PVP. If you're not fighting, your mining, your trading etc. By its very nature its you against everyone.

While honour exists between blues, when it comes to PVP... generally the most ruthless win. Its not cheating, it doesn't make you a bad person, its a computer game and you're playing a 'bad guy' in it. You can't pause and go back, its winner takes all. People that don't adopt this philosophy generally lose a lot. To become a winner in the game you need to be ruthless!

People will be honourable until they learn this. They'll honour the 1on1 and get ganked, they'll help on the mission and get ganked. So they are down on isk, and the di-honourable guy got a kill and your stuff....hmmm, so where do you go from here?

Twisted Evil

ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
Posted - 2008.09.18 12:55:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Diehard Si
YOu enter Eve, you think ...'Oh this seems nice and relaxed'. You get chatty to people, it seems a nice place.

WRONG

Eve is PVP. If you're not fighting, your mining, your trading etc. By its very nature its you against everyone.

While honour exists between blues, when it comes to PVP... generally the most ruthless win. Its not cheating, it doesn't make you a bad person, its a computer game and you're playing a 'bad guy' in it. You can't pause and go back, its winner takes all. People that don't adopt this philosophy generally lose a lot. To become a winner in the game you need to be ruthless!

People will be honourable until they learn this. They'll honour the 1on1 and get ganked, they'll help on the mission and get ganked. So they are down on isk, and the di-honourable guy got a kill and your stuff....hmmm, so where do you go from here?

Twisted Evil


QFT as far the game play goes really. When it comes to interpersonal relationships, I believe there can be honor in the way you behave yourself.

* Don't smack when you win or bash your GIANT PHALLOS in their head indiscriminately
* Honor ransoms
* Honor deals that you make, if you don't want to fight on equal terms (1v1 or whatever) don't, but don't lie about it.
* Don't be a tard.

PVP is about fun and breaking other people's assets, not about making your victims feel hateful or sad.

Ishamel 1
Burning Vendetta
Posted - 2008.09.18 13:20:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Lars Lodar
I killed one and got the other to structure as my guns broke from overheating due to unresponsive modules.


Guns? on a drake? no wonder they overheated.

As for the op, well greifers aren't pvpers, they are greifers. Its more like failed pvpers.

Calypso's Wrath
Mad Bombers
Guns and Alcohol
Posted - 2008.09.18 14:08:00 - [60]
 

Before you go too far into this game, here is a bit of advise:

In Eve, there is no honor but there is respect. If you can show yourself to be a good combat pilot, your enemies will respect your skill. Prove yourself to you, because in Eve, your the only one with honor.

-CW


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