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Gwendalyne
Caldari
SolarStone Syndicate
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:26:00 - [1]
 

First off, I would like to make it clear that this thread is being made in earnest -- if it trolls, it certainly wasn't the intent.

I am a devout carebear, having come from a long line of MMO's with (Optional) PvP in them. I actually used to like PvP until I played those games, at which point the extremely childish attitudes of people made me cringe. Bad typing, overuse of PVP jargon and the general obsessive need to shout at the top of one's lungs, "MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ" left me with a bad taste.

Here I come upon EVE, and see that it's (within limits) a whole game worth of PVP. I actually did NOT cringe, because I knew that, in the usual case of all-world PVP, there was going to be some sense of honor involved. Unspoken rules, political en'tandre, things like that...

After reading this forum a while (mostly for the lulz) I have yet to see this honor, yet I know it exists here SOMEWHERE. I can see the PVP community is more mature here (though you still need to work on the phallus wielding part) so I am pleased. However, in the two months I have been in my corp, I am now sitting in station twiddling my thumbs during our THIRD grief-week. Do you guys hate carebears that much?

So basically, I am confused as to how this game's PVP seems the same as the rest, even though I KNOW it's different.

Please be kind when you post -- if you feel you must flame, at least be objective when you do it.

Ikaa LoveYums
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:29:00 - [2]
 

Honor is this game? Doesn't exist Rolling Eyes

Triksterism
Spacecataz.
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:44:00 - [3]
 

Barbarians in space, with lasers. Sometimes missiles. (and drones too)

Jimer Lins
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:53:00 - [4]
 

The only honor in PVP is that which you bring with you.

Hotaru Stargazer
Posted - 2008.09.16 20:58:00 - [5]
 

Can I have your stuff?

Lars Lodar
The Python Cartel.
The Jerk Cartel
Posted - 2008.09.16 21:16:00 - [6]
 

Don't listen to the trolls.

I've been a professional pirate for quite some time now and I can tell you that my friends and I take honor very seriously. We never dishonor a ransom or planned fight such as a 1v1. Reputation is very important for most pirates as it's a good way to make isk.

Last night I challenged 2 Myrmidons to fight my drake. I killed one and got the other to structure as my guns broke from overheating due to unresponsive modules. I probably could have escaped but I stuck to my word and let him take the kill. We talked for some time afterward and he even tried to recruit me.

Stuff like that happens all the time at least in small fights in low sec. Just gotta have a good attitude and treat your opponent with respect whether you win or loose.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2008.09.16 21:29:00 - [7]
 

There is much dishonor in EVE.....
Most of the PVP "griefing" takes place in High Sec and border territories... as people who assume the safety of CONCORD will help them out... and the said griefer's attempt to work around the system and make life hellish.

PVP'ing in lowsec and or 0.0 is just that.... PVP'ing.

It can be anything and everything... some will be honest...others will run like cowards... etc..etc.

As it was said before... what you bring with you is what you got....doesn't mean the other guy will agree however...let alone have the same honor.

I sure wouldn't call you a carebear either.... your just someone who has a bit more time under his belt in the world of gaming and PVP'ing.

Its called experience.

Personally I avoid such situations.... but that doesn't mean i wont put up a fight when necessary.
I just tend to avoid trouble. : O )
At least until I can afford to get into trouble that is.
8 O )

Demitria Fernir
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.09.16 21:44:00 - [8]
 

Honor? in my PVP?

Gwendalyne
Caldari
SolarStone Syndicate
Posted - 2008.09.16 22:09:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Gwendalyne on 16/09/2008 22:13:59
I appreciate the replies -- even the "troll" ones. It helps to see how PvP works here.

@Lars: Your post is the good half I see of PVP in EVE. I suppose I might be making wardecs more of a thing than they are, but usually the people issuing them (and my CEO confirms they said to him) only want free stuff and carebear tears. Usually the other way around.

I DO remember something from the first wardec I was in: (WARNING: BORING STORY - SKIP IF YOU LIKE)

Late in the week I was out missioning in a rather unattractive T1 cruiser when I was caught on the other side of a gate and stomped on. After the WT's left I took the advice of a corpmate and decided to migrate for the duration. Having a lot of money at the time, I decided to purchase a Ferox and a handful of Mining Lasers (at the time it was the fastest mining setup for me) and so I did. No sooner had I set out, leaving through a different gate, from which I had 3 to choose from, I unluckily ran into the SAME two people. They decided to torture me this time, and although one stopped firing when I told him it wasn't set up to fight, I ended up cussing the other one out, causing him to re-engage. I will know now to keep my mouth shut.

Anyway, I decided to strike up a convo with the guy who stopped firing, and he apologized when he found out I had no combat potential the second time. After asking a rather funny, but very insightful question ("How did you fit mining lasers on a Drake, anyway?") he decided to give me some ISK to get a new ship with, and I thanked him.

The entire corp was going to renew on us until they realized we weren't PVP'ers, which is what they were looking for.

(END OF BORING STORY)

=====
@Drake: Yeah, I really am a carebear... In fact, I really suck at most PVP. I'm an exemplary tactician in battles, but usually, gun size has me beaten long before that comes into play. I suppose this is why I don't abhor PVP here so much: Reading up on some of the ship types, I can see there's a need for my kind of fight. I might actually return to the maelstrom of war after all.

Zloj MaNGooST
Solar Dragons
SOLAR FLEET
Posted - 2008.09.16 22:12:00 - [10]
 

Searching for honor? in forum for lo-sec pirates? lolz Laughing

FoulBeast
Gallente
Starwinders
Posted - 2008.09.16 23:38:00 - [11]
 

It comes with every PvP based game, there is people who honor PvP and take it seriously, who'll try to keep an arranged fight fair and keep it clean, others will Stab you in the back twice over and get their buddy's to join in, it's just how things tend to work even in real life.

But the low sec pirate's tend to be the ones with the honor (which sounds silly) like said before the reputation is the best way of making money

Lars Lodar
The Python Cartel.
The Jerk Cartel
Posted - 2008.09.16 23:41:00 - [12]
 

Yeah, I should have added that when it comes to war decs, 0.0, or FW pvp, honor generally isn't a factor since the motivations to fight are generally based on territory, griefing, profits, etc.

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2008.09.16 23:45:00 - [13]
 

Honor?

What is this "Honor" you speak of?

Vor'an
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:03:00 - [14]
 


Vor'an
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:05:00 - [15]
 

From my limited experience with the game so far (a month or so of carebear play in a trading/mining corp) I have seen the gamut of PvPers here.

They seem to break down into a few distinct categories:

a) can flipper baiters who are spoiling for an unfair fight with a highsec miner. Again it's usually not about the money - look at how many say they just want to destroy the ore, or leave it behind. I guess you can vendor the mining lasers. Not all flippers I've seen are like this, but most of the tactics involve social manipulation to trick the target into flagging himself so you can destroy him.

b) Bored kids who can't venture out of highsec alone in their mighty pvp-fit ships and want to "duel" people "just to half armour". Yeah. I've seen several people in local complain about hoe "just to half armor" means "destroy your ship".

c) "can someone help me with this mission?" Clever you, you got a newbie to offer his help and he warps right to you and three of your friends where you blow him up for falling for your trap.

d) real, honest to god, honourable pvpers and pirates. They are out there. Of course, the trouble is (or the beauty depending on how you look at the game) is that you just cannot tell ahead of time who to trust and who to be wary of, so you have to be wary of everyone. The employment history, bio and sec status of players can give you some idea, but it's not always concrete. Unless you're one of the well known honourable pirates the choice you are faced with is "do I pay the ransom, and then have my ship and pod destroyed anyway?" or "pay the ransom and hope the guy is an honourable pirate who lets me on my way after negotiating a deal". Since you're against a guy who holds all the cards, you might as well just default to "I'm not going to pay" since there's a 95% chance he's going to take your money and pod you anyway. Sorry to all the real pirates out there who stick to their word, but such is the way.

All of these things are to be expected, given the nature of the game and the way it is set up. Every time you leave dock you might get blown up. Every time you are about to undock you need to check your clone etc etc, all the guides are there to lessen the impact of someone who wants to ruin your day.

My only real complaint about the game's pvp system is the ease at which you can render concord useless: wardec. I have no problem with wardecs as a principle, however, it is entirely too easy for a pirate corp to decide hey, let's grief these players who are just starting out at the game" with a 50 million fee (which is nothing at all) to essentially turn the entire game into 0.0 space for your newbies who have been in the game for almost no time at all and blow them out of the sky, or ransom them for all the isk they have then pod them anyway "just because".

I can see that the escalating fees for multiple wars that has been introduced is supposed to help curb this a little, but it just lessens the problem slightly since griefing corps can just rotate around defenceless targets. Sure, they'll say "just hire some mercs" or "get some really cheap T1 frigs and meet them head on!" and yet strangely your weaker targets are somehow playing "unfairly" if they decide to wait it out in a station or changing corps to escape the "totally fair" T2 battleship + 4x tackler frigates vs your 1.5mill SP mission-running destroyer fight. Everyone always chimes how "Eve is not a fair universe! Deal with it!" yet somehow when your defenceless prey wants to run and hide they scream "hey, no fair! that's an exploit! I demand to kill newbies so I can feel like a big man!"

I am greatly looking forward to pvp - when I have the skills and the cash to support it. Right now I'm just getting a feel for the game, doing some mining, some missions etc. I highly doubt CCP intended war declarations to be a "fee to grief freely" mechanic rather than a "warring corporations ask concord to leave them in peace to slug it out" mechanic.

Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:05:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Gwendalyne
Do you guys hate carebears that much?

Yes YARRRR!!

Ok.. ok.. Don't really hate any many of the players.

I think that most people serious about PvP are looking for a good fight more than anything. Honor goes a long way to making it happen. And it does happen, but as in RL, you run into all types in game.

As for your war dec situation. Grab some t1 frigs and bring it to them. You'll die, but you'll learn, and it's a lot more fun than hanging out in a station. Who knows, you may even take some of them down.
Twisted Evil

Redback911
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:07:00 - [17]
 

Honour your corpmates

Honour your Blues

Honour your ransoms

Kill and rip off everything else.

Aseir Miristar
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:31:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Aseir Miristar on 17/09/2008 00:31:31
I am a CEO alt with nothing to add to this discussion.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:32:00 - [19]
 

Honor exists to the extent that having a reputation for being honorable is profitable in the long run. For example, a pirate with a reputation for dishonoring a ransom will find it difficult to get future ransoms, so it pays to be "honorable".

Beyond that? Worthless, obsolete concept. Those of us without honor will be happy to take advantage of you fools who care about it.

Arvald
Caldari
Drunken Space Irish
Posted - 2008.09.17 00:45:00 - [20]
 

only if there is isk involved

Lady Karma
Posted - 2008.09.17 01:45:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Lady Karma on 17/09/2008 01:46:27
When I see OP's like this I am tempted to say, all kinds of rude things.

Instead I will throw the question back, how do you define honour? For me it is not backstabbing people that trust me. And you know what, I earned that trust. So for those guys, I am honourable, to the rest of you...**** off Laughing

I don't give a rats ass about some random idiot in a ship.

Edit: Agreeing with redback

Darkopteron
Trans-Solar Works
Posted - 2008.09.17 02:36:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Redback911
Honour your corpmates

Honour your Blues

Honour your ransoms

Kill and rip off everything else.
Those are pretty much the rules I go by. There's nothing else to it.

However in this sandbox game you can be as honorable or dishonorable as you want, it's just a case of setting your own standards... and some people are lower than others.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.09.17 03:34:00 - [23]
 

Honour exists in EvE just as it does in real life: as a personal choice, not an enforced one.

Insofar as you have a problem it is with the players, not the game.

Stuckwtf
Posted - 2008.09.17 03:46:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Redback911
Honour your corpmates

Honour your Blues

Honour your ransoms

Kill and rip off everything else.


This, more or less. Most pewers operate by these simple rules. It's not usually in anyone's best interest to violate them.

As for the OP, your wardeccers are just trying to make an honest buck. Pay up and they will go away, for a while. Start killing them and they will definitely not bother you again. Deccing bear corps isn't about epeens or honor, it's just a way to make ISK without engaging in dreaded PVE. If you have a problem with it, learn to fight back, and it will stop happening to you.. maybe you'll even take it up as a career option yourself. Fighting back successfully doesn't require ISK or SP, it just takes a little organization to get you some practical experience.

Lavraen
Animus Furandi
Posted - 2008.09.17 09:19:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Gwendalyne
, "MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ" left me with a bad taste.




You shouldn't put it in your mouth then...

Laughing

PsychoBones
Red Goats
Posted - 2008.09.17 10:27:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Lavraen
Originally by: Gwendalyne
, "MY PHALLUS-SHAPED WEAPON IS LONGER THAN YOURS, LULZ" left me with a bad taste.




You shouldn't put it in your mouth then...

Laughing



LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

ApaKaka
Lone Starr Corporation
Posted - 2008.09.17 10:27:00 - [27]
 

There is no honor in PVP in EVE. Even when you are evenly matched in forces and only player skill will decide the outcome, people will not engage you on equal terms, so you have to trick them, or they trick you.

PVP is all about trickery and psychology, making yourself seem weaker than you are, luring the opponent into traps, boxing them in where they can't escape and so on.

The only "honorable" pvp that can happen is 1v1, which is completely uninteresting except as an excercise in mine-is-bigger-than-yours rhetoric.

On the other hand, I prefer it like this, the warm fuzzy feeling you get after a successful psychological trap is unbeatable, and oftentimes you get more even and equal fights this way than if people had agreed to fight 10 ships against 10 ships, period.

Kresh Vladir
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.09.17 11:42:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Lars Lodar
Don't listen to the trolls.

I've been a professional pirate for quite some time now and I can tell you that my friends and I take honor very seriously. We never dishonor a ransom or planned fight such as a 1v1. Reputation is very important for most pirates as it's a good way to make isk.

Last night I challenged 2 Myrmidons to fight my drake. I killed one and got the other to structure as my guns broke from overheating due to unresponsive modules. I probably could have escaped but I stuck to my word and let him take the kill. We talked for some time afterward and he even tried to recruit me.

Stuff like that happens all the time at least in small fights in low sec. Just gotta have a good attitude and treat your opponent with respect whether you win or loose.


I used to be a merc in KIA and im now a pirate again but what Lars said kinda sums it up for me aswell,
both as a merc and as a pirate. I have never been dishonest in Eve and i never will (maily because i make isk
playing poker so i dont need to scam ppl :))

Also another thing you cant forget, EVE is a HARD game, its not
for everyone and the average player age is higher than most other games.

And the smacking in local, well that will come in any game just learn to ignore it.

eXtas
NibbleTek
Posted - 2008.09.17 12:08:00 - [29]
 

there is no honor in eve, ppl just look for a good way to scam, kill, grief... but its ok after you accept that and dont trust anyone to much and just go out have fun Very Happy

allso you can easyly block anoying ppl

sorry I didnt care to read your post...

Kazang
Wrecking Shots
Posted - 2008.09.17 12:52:00 - [30]
 

There is some honor but most of the time pvp is an ambush or camp or blob gank. Which are all valid tactics with a high chance of success and are based off the principle that pvp in eve is war. All is fair. You might call real life warfare tactics such as carpet bombing and guerilla warfare not honourable but such is life, you do what you need to do to win.

However you will find certain honour in duels and other kinds of small scale pvp, a lot of people will honour a 1v1, not all certainly but you are always going to have someone people who want an easy kill mail. There us honor in eve, just dont expect it and think of it is a nice surprise when some doesn't try to **** you over.


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