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blankseplocked [Statistics] ECM and ECCM: Facts instead of feelings.
 
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GateScout
Posted - 2008.09.17 17:15:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: GateScout on 17/09/2008 17:15:45
Something else to think about:

If you're jamming out to 200km, how many sensor boosters are you running? Do you have a MWD?

A falcon has 7 mid slots? 2x sensor boosters (needed for 200km locking range) plus a MWD leaves 4 slots for jammers. So..which racial jammers do you bring? All? 2 of 2 types? God forbid you run into a gang with ECCM...as your falcon will be reduced to a spectator. Very Happy

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.09.17 17:21:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: GateScout
2x sensor boosters (needed for 200km locking range)


Laughing

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2008.09.17 17:47:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Veldya on 17/09/2008 18:17:24
Originally by: GateScout
Edited by: GateScout on 17/09/2008 17:15:45
Something else to think about:

If you're jamming out to 200km, how many sensor boosters are you running? Do you have a MWD?


You only need one sensor booster (no script) and one low slot signal amplifier (both T2) to get a 228km lock range, which is sufficient. You only need 1x SB II with a range script to go out to 240km and have an extra low slot for something else but your scan resolution drops a tad low (how fast you lock).

Quote:

A falcon has 7 mid slots?


Yes

Quote:
2x sensor boosters (needed for 200km locking range)


No, can get to 240km with one booster with range script or one booster and a low slot amplifier. You can push your lock range out to 250km but you will get into falloff range of the racial ECMs which drop their effectiveness.



plus a MWD leaves 4 slots for jammers. So..which racial jammers do you bring? All? 2 of 2 types? God forbid you run into a gang with ECCM...as your falcon will be reduced to a spectator. Very Happy


I fly my falcon with 5 racial ECMs.

What you fit largely depends on what you plan on doing, for typical fleet ops vs capitals I go with 3x Ion Field and 2x White Noise. Amarr have the best caps and typically have more of them to jam than other races, Gallente are the next most popular. That is 12.6 strength on primary and a Revelation has 41 sensor strength and a Moros has 44 so you have a pretty good chance at shutting one or maybe two caps down with a Falcon is pretty good value.

Carriers are much harder, Archon has 72 sensor strength and Thanatos 76. I don't typically have an issue shutting down a repping carrier, don't typically bother with "dps" carriers.

Falcons are pretty good in gang PvP, you don't usually have the range benefit in small scale PvP so I typically go with multis and put a bit more hp on the ship as you will take hits. Multis use more cap, have a shorter range and are not as strong vs racial but you don't have to worry so much about what you are up against.

ECCM is not a huge issue, you don't see a lot of big ships in small PvP and it is rare to see a whole lot of ECCM being used because it is really only protection against just Caldari ECM. You mostly see ships with 14-18 sensor strength. A Vaga with ECCM goes to 27.4 sensor strength. Even with multis you will shut it down with a few jammers. When you get into the ridiculous, ie Carriers with ECCM it is just the sheer volume of jam attempts which shut them down. You can't really stop ECM, if enough jammers are on you, you shut down.

Cautet
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2008.09.18 09:09:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Cautet on 18/09/2008 09:25:29
Edited by: Cautet on 18/09/2008 09:09:44
Originally by: Veldya
Edited by: Veldya on 17/09/2008 18:17:24
Originally by: GateScout
Edited by: GateScout on 17/09/2008 17:15:45

What you fit largely depends on what you plan on doing, for typical fleet ops vs capitals I go with 3x Ion Field and 2x White Noise. Amarr have the best caps and typically have more of them to jam than other races, Gallente are the next most popular. That is 12.6 strength on primary and a Revelation has 41 sensor strength and a Moros has 44 so you have a pretty good chance at shutting one or maybe two caps down with a Falcon is pretty good value.

Carriers are much harder, Archon has 72 sensor strength and Thanatos 76. I don't typically have an issue shutting down a repping carrier, don't typically bother with "dps" carriers.

Falcons are pretty good in gang PvP, you don't usually have the range benefit in small scale PvP so I typically go with multis and put a bit more hp on the ship as you will take hits. Multis use more cap, have a shorter range and are not as strong vs racial but you don't have to worry so much about what you are up against.



Just to clarify a few things. I am not saying you are being misleading but what you say is only correct in certain situations. Dreads in siege mode are immune to ECM. Of course, they also can't be repped, so it depends on the situation.

Also for carriers, you might be able to stop a carrier repping for a part of the fight, at best. Co-ordinating vs multiple carriers is very tricky, especially as your rooks, falcons, and scorpions will all be failing most of your jams.

When cyno jammers are down (which i assume they are if dreads are on the field) then you would be better off in a cap than in a falcon. Yes sure caps cost more but it's about numbers. 1 falcon is 1 of your online members who is not in a cap.

Edit: On the main point (sorry Branco) I think that the locking time after jam does have a reasonable effect on how long a BS is out of the fight. When someone is using 1 eccm (which can easily be fit on most bs) that time is you assume a falcon is constantly using ecm on them is not extreme. In most engagements falcons have to move around and get hasstled, and so need to relock and recycle often, and are probably spending 25% or more out of the fight.

The issue really comes with the big ships like carriers. They would be able to completely ignore falcons were it not for the locking time. Perhaps if any tweaking was made the sensor sensor strength of carriers should be looked at also.

Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2008.09.18 11:49:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Veldya on 18/09/2008 11:51:51
Originally by: Cautet

Just to clarify a few things. I am not saying you are being misleading but what you say is only correct in certain situations. Dreads in siege mode are immune to ECM. Of course, they also can't be repped, so it depends on the situation.


Sieging in fleet battles s a death sentance, can't get jammed, can't get repped. Siegers get primaried and die so not a huge concern for a Falcon pilot.

Quote:

Also for carriers, you might be able to stop a carrier repping for a part of the fight, at best. Co-ordinating vs multiple carriers is very tricky, especially as your rooks, falcons, and scorpions will all be failing most of your jams.


I've never had issued jamming carriers in a falcon, even if a carrier has totally unrealistic amount of ECCM and push their sensor strength to 150ish then you still have 8% chance per racial jammer. We usually had about 3 ecm per cap so they were surprisingly easy to shut down.

Quote:

When cyno jammers are down (which i assume they are if dreads are on the field) then you would be better off in a cap than in a falcon. Yes sure caps cost more but it's about numbers. 1 falcon is 1 of your online members who is not in a cap.


Nah, sides without support lose caps. If you go jump to a cyno with 50 caps and no support against a competent enemy you will lose caps. Falcons will save your ships. They are vitally important for shutting down your enemy's ability to fight, I've seen ECM turn the tide of countless fights, both cap and non-cap fights.

Quote:

Edit: On the main point (sorry Branco) I think that the locking time after jam does have a reasonable effect on how long a BS is out of the fight. When someone is using 1 eccm (which can easily be fit on most bs) that time is you assume a falcon is constantly using ecm on them is not extreme. In most engagements falcons have to move around and get hasstled, and so need to relock and recycle often, and are probably spending 25% or more out of the fight.


I've only found locking to be an issue in a Scorpion, Cruisers and Frigates lock fairly fast. Locking fast is also important when a sniper is lining you up. ;)

Quote:

The issue really comes with the big ships like carriers. They would be able to completely ignore falcons were it not for the locking time. Perhaps if any tweaking was made the sensor sensor strength of carriers should be looked at also.


That is not my experience with Falcons. I've been part of many ECM teams that have broken spider repping cap fleets, when an enemy brings 10-15 repping carriers you need to break the network of repping or else you are going nowhere.

Cautet
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2008.09.18 13:21:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Cautet on 18/09/2008 13:24:28
I'm not suggesting you are wrong but I also suggest that you are not stating the whole picture.

Say you have an equal numbers fight - 50 v 50. One side brings 40 caps and 10 support. The others bring 10 caps and 40 support. It is an obvious outcome. And there is never usually a shortage of support. Even if the side with only 10 caps had a titan they would still lose if you were able to keep a single hic alive, and in fact wouldn't put the titan on the field.

I was simply saying that it's not a 1 for 1 tradeoff, i.e. you would be much more usefull in a carrier than in a falcon. Having some support is usefull, but on average the support is only support because the pilots don't have caps yet.

Even if your support gets wiped out by DD you can hold the field in a large rr cap fleet for long enough for your pilots to form up a new support fleet. You can't hold the field in a support fleet against a sizable cap fleet.

On the dread point I mostly agree with you, although there are exceptions.

My points though are mostly not on topic, sorry. A falcon is not useless against a cap, although I don't think it is massively effective either. If locking time on caps was reduced the falcon or scorp would, in my view, not be worth fielding with caps on the field. Also, you have, as I am sure you will agree, the difficulty of jams overlapping on targets when the numbers you are trying to suppress increase, more so with caps because of constant jam failures.

Bit of theorycrafting perhaps from me, and abit from my own experience. Ofc lag is the reality of these fights and has more of an effect than anything except numbers.

Angelic Eviaran
Posted - 2008.09.25 10:48:00 - [127]
 

Nerf ecm. Its obvious it has to be done. Really.

sdthujfg
Posted - 2008.09.25 13:21:00 - [128]
 

Nerf ecm.

DiaBlo UK
ZDK
Posted - 2008.09.25 13:43:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/09/2008 13:03:09
In light of the data, I really like a suggestion someone posted about ECM mechanics: keep locks active, but prevent use of guns/RR/EW while jammed (thereby removing relock time).

Relocking time appears to increase the effects of jamming at lower chances (so something like every second/third jam happening) too much (while having less of a effect with multiple jammers).



i've only just seen this thread and i like it. not got all the way through yet, so not sure this has been mentioned, and might be seen a derailing,
but yeah lets nerf sensor damps more, not like they've not been hit hard enough already.

TBH, i think ECM is pretty balanced atm. all ships have their strong points and weak points. tbh, if a falcon misses a jam and its in range, it shoudl die or have to warp out. if it doesn't your doing something wrong.

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.09.25 13:59:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
Nerf ecm. Its obvious it has to be done. Really.


Nerf idiots that have never used ecm and dont know wtf ecm ships are like to use.
Fly one then come back and whine, odds are youll see its just like any other ship.

Angelic Eviaran
Posted - 2008.09.25 14:45:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
Nerf ecm. Its obvious it has to be done. Really.


Nerf idiots that have never used ecm and dont know wtf ecm ships are like to use.
Fly one then come back and whine, odds are youll see its just like any other ship.


I can fly falcons. But unlike you I dont soley depend on that. How about you get lost nub?

Multimorph
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2008.09.25 16:16:00 - [132]
 

Standards in this thread seem to deteriorate quickly. Sad :(

Shaprie
Posted - 2008.09.25 16:51:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Nikunai
Doesn't all this rely on the fact the falcon is left alone for the entire fight?

Wouldn't the data completely change if one person in the gang MWD's towards it or makes any attempt to force it to cloak or leave the field?

Oh wait, that would mean someone might lose out on a kill mail if they have to go after the falcon. It all makes sense now. Shocked


This.

The question I have is just that, who just leaves the falcon alone? Most falcons I've seen (which is only a few) have a paper thin tank. Secondly it sounds like most of the people that are upset just want their ship to be the over power. One of my favorite things about eve is that there is no "I win" set up. One must consider when to run, when to find a different battlefield and to recognize a God send combat situation. If we can look past the idea that "My set up should rule over all and not be able to be hindered." to the "I built this ship to do thus and thus but I know that my gang and I might have to run from something to find a more opertune time.". Just some thoughts. let the flames begin.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.09.25 16:56:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/09/2008 16:57:42
Originally by: Shaprie
I might have to run from something to find a more opertune time.". Just some thoughts. let the flames begin.



Ok, remove covops cloak from Falcon, problem solved? Very Happy

If you are not merely trying to derail (ok, little left to derail now) or troll, there is a vast number of posts describing the issues regarding Falcon counters / etc. Saying the same things over and over IS getting tiring.

sdthujfg
Posted - 2008.09.25 18:52:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Multimorph
Standards in this thread seem to deteriorate quickly. Sad :(


It is the death spasms of the falcon fotm chasers you hear.

Angelic Eviaran
Posted - 2008.09.26 09:29:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko


Ok, remove covops cloak from Falcon, problem solved? Very Happy

If you are not merely trying to derail (ok, little left to derail now) or troll, there is a vast number of posts describing the issues regarding Falcon counters / etc. Saying the same things over and over IS getting tiring.



This.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2008.09.27 09:59:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/09/2008 13:03:09
In light of the data, I really like a suggestion someone posted about ECM mechanics: keep locks active, but prevent use of guns/RR/EW while jammed (thereby removing relock time).

Relocking time appears to increase the effects of jamming at lower chances (so something like every second/third jam happening) too much (while having less of a effect with multiple jammers).

That could work nicely, or during the jam cycle the victims target locks go back to the 'acquiring' stage with the flashing crosshairs as per when you first target something.


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