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Lala Ru
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.09.09 03:40:00 - [1]
 

There is a game that I play online that has lots of PVP content. Unlike the other similar games, it was less on who has the l33test skills and more about people coming to work together as a team. Building a good infrastructure is as important as front line fighting and there are a number of support roles for people to help out, even if they aren't the best fighter. Pretty much everyone PVPs in this game and it's a blast to play. That last sentence probably gave away the fact that the game isn't EVE Online, it's Team Fortress 2. Yes, everyone PVPs in TF2, in fact the game is built FOR PVP. Even if you just joined you can jump in and have a blast.

This is in sharp contrast to Real Life. Very few people seek out PVP in real life, even fewer seek out potentially lethal PVP, and even fewer will willingly participate in a “fair fight” in which they have a 50% chance of dying. The vast VAST majority of people simply decide to live normal lives and tend to avoid conflict, or any risky situation if at all possible.

What makes people behave differently between TF2 and Real Life? TF2 has a very small death penalty. You die, you respawn soon and can then re-join the fight. The worst thing that can happen is being killed with a full Ubercharge, but that generally reflects only a few minutes of investment down the drain. Real Life has a much harsher death penalty, and hence people will go to extreme lengths to avoid risk and death, since they don't respawn. In fact, most of the people in Real Life who ARE willing to die usually believe that Death isn't all that bad because of rewards in the afterlife, making the death penalty, to them, much smaller.

Now, EVE Online has a rather harsh death penalty compared to TF2 and other MMORPGs. Can you guess how much people gravitate towards PVP? I'll give you two hints.

EVE Map by Security Status
EVE Map by Pilot Population

You cannot put a high death penalty and have lots of PVP. It's simply not going to happen. Is this a problem? It depends on what type of game EVE Online is supposed to be. If it's supposed to be a sandbox game, then it's quite alright. The devs just need to be aware that many people will be exploring safer options than Low – Null security space (just like in Real Life) that they must somehow make activities like Mining, Hauling, Building and other “Carebear” activities more fun since many people will be participating in those activities.

If it's supposed to be PVP, then there is a problem that isn't easy to fix. You can drastically lower the death penalty to make PVP more friendly, in which case EVE Online will cease to be EVE Online. Or, you can implement various methods to force people into PVP, in which case many will leave the game and you'll be left with the hardcore few who don't mind investing a lot of time and energy to replace PVP losses.


The bottom line is, the current state of the game does not easily lend itself to PVP. In an effort to making the game more like real life, it makes the players more likely to behave as they would behave in real life, and this game more likely to be refereed to as “a second job you have to pay for” by acerbic British video game reviewers.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.09.09 03:48:00 - [2]
 

insurance helps oh so much on t1 ships that I am really surprised people don't pvp more often.

and t2 frigs are also cheap as hell

Confused

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.09.09 03:48:00 - [3]
 

I get my instant gratification, orgasmo-adrenaline from games dedicated to headshot style PvP. My preferences are BattleField 2 and PlanetSide (just recently got into this genre).

I don't get that from EvE. In EvE, the PvP I enjoy participating in is SURVIVAL oriented. I'm too dumb to play the market, I've got ADD and thus industry is beyond me. Missions and ops are pretty much why I play EvE.

It's not the same thing, not the same type. FW is kind of like that, but as you pointed out, it doesn't quite meet.

EvE is far and beyond focusing on team play and tactics, though. Sure, there's tactics in organizing a proper gen bust, or a fly-by with a bunch of Gal Gunships, but it's not like working with 150 other players trying to push out someone from your space.

I wish EvE would get MORE tactical, not simpler. Less damage, more disfiguring and pinpoint damages, less bottlenecks, more tactical environments and situations involving higher-process thinking.

But that's just me. I feel no guilt in using a jack-*ff FPS for that kind of PvP. Maybe one day EvE will have something like that, some distant future after ambulation, and I can just buy one game. That'd be nice ...

SoftRevolution
Posted - 2008.09.09 03:58:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
insurance helps oh so much on t1 ships that I am really surprised people don't pvp more often.

and t2 frigs are also cheap as hell

Confused


FW really opens up the door to cheapo PVP.

Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2008.09.09 03:59:00 - [5]
 

i do not support any lessening of the death penalties.

sorry. risk is good for gaming, and the human psyche.

people dont want to play, so be it.

enough of us do like the risk associated with the game, to make it profitable into the future.



Grim Mercy
Heretic Logistics
Heretic Nation
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:07:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
insurance helps oh so much on t1 ships that I am really surprised people don't pvp more often.

and t2 frigs are also cheap as hell

Confused

Of course they are to you, you dirty pirate! You're rich!

Seriously though, I hear the argument that Eve PVP is so hardcore because it's penalties are higher than any other game. PVP is truly about player vs player in Eve; you're playing against the age of the other player's character, his ship, his particular skills, his internet connection, the amount of isk in his wallet, the ships in his hanger, and even maybe 2000 of his friends and all of their stuff... It's not just BANG...NEXT.

Now, the hardcore elite, as I like to call them, decided long ago that Eve was their game because it was so hardcore. Nice circular logic on their parts. The rage at the idea that some people like to sit in stations and market-PVP, or build stuff and industry-PVP, or haul stuff and trade-PVP, or race out to the belts to get all those tasty omber spawns and mine-pvp, is irrational to me. There are areas for the hardcore to be hardcore, with no rules nor security.

Why aren't they happy that not everyone else is there? Do they want more fights? Go to low-sec and find a pirate camp! Do they envy those that want safe-ish isk making practices? Go to hi-sec and run missions, too! Do they want to make it harder to play the game solo? Go join a 0.0 corp... and let everyone else do what it is they want to do!

That is the true nature of the sand-box. Do what you want, where you want it... not change the other parts of it to suit your needs.

I am a part-time pvper, and part-time carebear. I run missions in hi-sec to fund my pvp. This is probably the majority of Eve players. Hell, it's the majority of PvP-only toons as well- it's not uncommon to hear about some cloaker going afk in your system 23 hours a day going to CAOD and bragging how he was running missions and earning isk while keeping your system locked down!





Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:21:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Grim Mercy
Stuff.


I like the hardcore aspect, though I don't think I'm any kind of 'hardcore' player, but meh.

My biggest gripe is why do 'pvpers' need to do missions in order to keep PvPing?

Hisec life and nulsec life is great. I *am* against anything that tries to further limit the sandbox of the game. At least, I think I am. But I think some things are imbalanced, particularly with alts and hisec logistics supporting nulsec alliances.

Basically, you can't really destroy any of the smart nulsec groups, not because you can't infiltrate their systems and wipe out their operations THERE, but because you can't beat their backup source ... hisec mission alts and NPC transports.

But that's not for the current post ...

Lala Ru
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:26:00 - [8]
 

My own little rant isn't to say that the death penalty is BAD, or that there should be less PVP. What I AM saying is that a lot of EVE players (again, see the two star charts) prefer safer means of playing the game.

One of my pet peeves is that many people, from players to developers, seem to think that PVP is the only real thing to do in EVE. Yahtzee was criticized for not joining a player corp and PVP-ing . . . as a n00b in a trial account. Once again, look at my two maps. Hardcore PVPers do exist, but while they may be prevalent on the forums they are NOT the majority in EVE and it benefits no one to pretend that they are.

Tzigan Jegos
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:28:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Lala Ru

The bottom line is, the current state of the game does not easily lend itself to PVP. In an effort to making the game more like real life, it makes the players more likely to behave as they would behave in real life, and this game more likely to be refereed to as “a second job you have to pay for” by acerbic British video game reviewers.


The bottom line is that a competent carebear can raise enough isk in a week of carebearing to pvp at least 3 or 4 days, even with cruisers and battlecruisers, arguably having much more fun (shooting players not rocks or dumb NPCs). Level 4 missions can fuel PVP quite easily. Raise that bar to a corporate level and your 'harsh penalties for pvp is what forces people to avoid it' idea falls hard.


Lala Ru
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:36:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Tzigan Jegos
The bottom line is that a competent carebear can raise enough isk in a week of carebearing to pvp at least 3 or 4 days, even with cruisers and battlecruisers, arguably having much more fun (shooting players not rocks or dumb NPCs). Level 4 missions can fuel PVP quite easily. Raise that bar to a corporate level and your 'harsh penalties for pvp is what forces people to avoid it' idea falls hard.
"Harsh" is relative.

Time it takes me to recover from death in EVE, assuming it's a PVP fitted ship and not a hauler with lots of goods: A few days with my trading alt logging on a few minutes a day, or a few hours grinding missions.
Time it takes me to recover from death in World of Warcraft: 5 minutes, 10 if I have to use a Spirit Healer.
Time it takes me to recover from death in Team Fortress 2: Approx. 30 seconds, including time spent getting to the front lines.

For me, the death penalty is very annoying, but acceptable. For many others, it's a huge pain, especially if they didn't lose a PVP fitted ship and instead lost something REALLY valuable. Don't believe me? Look at the two graphs I posted. Does it look like people want to PVP?

Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:44:00 - [11]
 

People really need to stop drawing up conclusions based on real life.

People play games to step away from real life momentarily. Make the game too similar to real life and you lose your audience.

PVP needs to remain a large factor in this game despite how unrealistic the system currently is, otherwise it just becomes another 9-5.

The MMO market is thoroughly saturated with games that have no death penalty. I'm really not trying to be a jerk when I say, please go try them out instead of trying to change this one.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:47:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Lala Ru
My own little rant isn't to say that the death penalty is BAD, or that there should be less PVP. What I AM saying is that a lot of EVE players (again, see the two star charts) prefer safer means of playing the game.

One of my pet peeves is that many people, from players to developers, seem to think that PVP is the only real thing to do in EVE. Yahtzee was criticized for not joining a player corp and PVP-ing . . . as a n00b in a trial account. Once again, look at my two maps. Hardcore PVPers do exist, but while they may be prevalent on the forums they are NOT the majority in EVE and it benefits no one to pretend that they are.



Nice charts. But please while we can included usage statistics, it does NOTHING to define player motives. Any assumption to what those players motivations for being in hisec are, are just that, assumptions.

How many are there because they have weak machines that can't handle PvP? How many are there because they don't like combat PvP? How many are new players? How many are players who prefer missions, and have found (like I have) that hisec missions are far more profitable for the effort expended than missions anywhere else?

How many are players (like me) who simply don't like nulsec ... but do enjoy PvP ... but have found losec horribly imbalanced? How many are players funding losec and nulsec alts? How many are dedicated traders and industrialists taking advantage of the heavy markets in these regions? How many of these fund alts and industrialists would operate just as easily from losec or nulsec if it was as profitable for the effort and threat level?

How many are macro miners and mission bots? How many are in a corp that is wardeced and are avoiding the enemy? How many are militia members off duty?



Cool pics, interesting discussion topic, but all we can do is ASSUME. We don't know who or what is the majority and what is the motivations.

Lala Ru
Gallente
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:48:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Neesa Corrinne
The MMO market is thoroughly saturated with games that have no death penalty. I'm really not trying to be a jerk when I say, please go try them out instead of trying to change this one.
And quote me when I said that the system needs to be changed. Oh, I never said that? I'm really not trying to be a jerk when I say, shut up.

Synapse Archae
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:49:00 - [14]
 

Here's a little heads up to the op.

I was at best buy this weekend and I looked at Team Fortress. It would cost me about the same as I pay every single month for my accounts in Eve.

Fruthermore I just spent over $100 on a freaking model of an Eve ship.

I have yet to even buy TF2.

That should give you some idea of the comparative value of PVP with no death penalty.

Tzigan Jegos
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:49:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Tzigan Jegos on 09/09/2008 04:52:49
Originally by: Lala Ru
"Harsh" is relative.


Everything is relative. It depends what kind of satisfaction you want to get from PvP.

If you want instant gratification you play a first person shooter like Counterstrike. It takes seconds to kill someone and seconds for that person to respawn. It's a game of score. Same as world of warcraft. You put in little time and effort to kill your opponent, and at the same time he puts in little time and effort to recover.

To me, that is little to no PvP satisfaction. No consequences = no purpose to play.

In EVE when you blow up someone's ship, or someone's transport filled with goodies, that has value. You might say, it's just pixels and bits and bytes, but it's also time invested to acquire said bits and bytes your victim just lost.

THAT is PvP satisfaction. Counterstrike and WoW offer no method of obtaining anything even close to that feeling from PvPing.

Bottom line: It depends what you expect from PvP.




edited:syntax

Neesa Corrinne
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:49:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Lala Ru
Originally by: Neesa Corrinne
The MMO market is thoroughly saturated with games that have no death penalty. I'm really not trying to be a jerk when I say, please go try them out instead of trying to change this one.
And quote me when I said that the system needs to be changed. Oh, I never said that? I'm really not trying to be a jerk when I say, shut up.


Soooo, you're posting why then? Just wanted your 15 minutes of fame on the forums or something?

Tzigan Jegos
Posted - 2008.09.09 04:56:00 - [17]
 

What you are saying is the majority of players is made of cowards. I agree.


 

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