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Hauleralt0002
Posted - 2008.09.05 12:54:00 - [1]
 

When can I start to use them for any real gank-fit pvp setup? Have you tried to gank fit a tempest and see what happens compared to any other gank fit BS?

In before typhoon highest dps ship in game.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2008.09.05 13:07:00 - [2]
 

Best estimates are 6 months to a year from now.

Amarr is 3 months that way ---->

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.09.05 15:44:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Hauleralt0002
When can I start to use them for any real gank-fit pvp setup? Have you tried to gank fit a tempest and see what happens compared to any other gank fit BS?

In before typhoon highest dps ship in game.


Maybe you should have trained a race you liked flying? I was flying amarr whenthey were at the bottom. You see how things work out? Laughing

Duncan MacPherson
Minmatar
Avatars of Ore
Posted - 2008.09.05 16:04:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Hauleralt0002
When can I start to use them for any real gank-fit pvp setup? Have you tried to gank fit a tempest and see what happens compared to any other gank fit BS?

In before typhoon highest dps ship in game.


Maybe you should have trained a race you liked flying? I was flying amarr whenthey were at the bottom. You see how things work out? Laughing


Word... I have Minnie BS V and I love my Phoon. Think I own like 4 of the things now. I love them in PVP and for missions. 5 heavy drones plus missiles plus guns. How could you not love that ship. Its rough at first - but once you build up some skills all is good.

whisk
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.09.05 16:06:00 - [5]
 

tempest is great

Borasao
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2008.09.05 16:49:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Hauleralt0002
When can I start to use them for any real gank-fit pvp setup? Have you tried to gank fit a tempest and see what happens compared to any other gank fit BS?

In before typhoon highest dps ship in game.


Maybe you should have trained a race you liked flying? I was flying amarr whenthey were at the bottom. You see how things work out? Laughing


Heh, yeah... I *cross-trained* to Amarr when they were at the bottom ;) Now everybody wants to fly them :(

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.09.05 16:50:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Maybe you should have trained a race you liked flying? I was flying amarr whenthey were at the bottom. You see how things work out? Laughing


There comes a time when you have max skills for those battleships (I'm very quickly approaching a max skilled Minnie BS pilot). At that point you can specialize further (Marauders 5, Recon 5, CS 5, etc), or you can crosstrain and be much more useful to your gangs (and quite possibly have fun because you win).

The Average Minnie BS pilot can be a completely competent (Amarr BS5, Controlled Bursts 5, Large Pulse/Beam Spec 4) in ~140 days IIRC. It's laughable to me that any Amarr pilot can talk about how they require "high skills".

-Liang

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.09.05 16:53:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

The Average Minnie BS pilot can be a completely competent (Amarr BS5, Controlled Bursts 5, Large Pulse/Beam Spec 4) in ~140 days IIRC. It's laughable to me that any Amarr pilot can talk about how they require "high skills".

-Liang


Wth are you on about? You know how long it takes for a good amarr character to crosstrain minmatar? Not long, a fully fledged amarr pilot will have armor tanking, gunnery, missiles, drones, cap skills, nav skills. Oh right, so we need to train a little projectiles and shield tanking. Big deal. Amarr is high sp race just like minmatar. Its gallente and caldari that are the easy mode pvp and resp pve races.

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.09.05 16:54:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: BiggestT on 05/09/2008 16:55:46
dbl post

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.09.05 16:55:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Maybe you should have trained a race you liked flying? I was flying amarr whenthey were at the bottom. You see how things work out? Laughing


There comes a time when you have max skills for those battleships (I'm very quickly approaching a max skilled Minnie BS pilot). At that point you can specialize further (Marauders 5, Recon 5, CS 5, etc), or you can crosstrain and be much more useful to your gangs (and quite possibly have fun because you win).

The Average Minnie BS pilot can be a completely competent (Amarr BS5, Controlled Bursts 5, Large Pulse/Beam Spec 4) in ~140 days IIRC. It's laughable to me that any Amarr pilot can talk about how they require "high skills".

-Liang


I only need ammar cruiser V and bam hello sac..
But ive been going uber caldari spec from the word go and have not looked back, it seems caldari may come back to the lime-light so it may soon pay-off..If not, meh, flying pimp ships is still fun, whatever the race.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:04:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

Wth are you on about? You know how long it takes for a good amarr character to crosstrain minmatar? Not long, a fully fledged amarr pilot will have armor tanking, gunnery, missiles, drones, cap skills, nav skills. Oh right, so we need to train a little projectiles and shield tanking. Big deal. Amarr is high sp race just like minmatar. Its gallente and caldari that are the easy mode pvp and resp pve races.


You train T2 Cruise/Torps with excellent support why? You trained Falloff 5 why? You trained shield tanking skills why? Amarr is not a high SP race... certainly not nearly as high as Minnies. What, you think you're special in that you need cap skills? Rolling Eyes

-Liang

Meichi Li
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:07:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Wth are you on about? You know how long it takes for a good amarr character to crosstrain minmatar? Not long, a fully fledged amarr pilot will have armor tanking, gunnery, missiles, drones, cap skills, nav skills. Oh right, so we need to train a little projectiles and shield tanking. Big deal. Amarr is high sp race just like minmatar. Its gallente and caldari that are the easy mode pvp and resp pve races.


This argument is ridiculous. A good battleship pilot of any race will have drone skills, cap skills, good skills in at least one weapons system and one tanking type, and good navigation skills.

Simply put, good battleship pilots have good skills. Training for armor tanking takes three weeks with terrible attributes. Training for shield tanking it about the same, though tack on a few weeks if you want a T2 boost amp.

A Gallente pilot with crap gunnery skills, drone skills, armor tanking skills, cap skills, and drone skills will be crap in any ship. And with good skills, all that pilot needs to fly another race's ship (this is especially true with Amarr and Gallente) is the respective racial gun/ship skills.

So you're saying that a character with good skills for every Amarr ship would be good in a Minmatar ship? Shocking. It's the same for Caldari pilots training Minmatar. Caldari gunships are more common than Sacrileges, after all. The only time you'd find this to be untrue would be a Gallente pilot trying to hop into a T2 Phoon, or a Gallente pilot trying to hop into a Raven. Big whoop.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:09:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Meichi Li

So you're saying that a character with good skills for every Amarr ship would be good in a Minmatar ship? Shocking. It's the same for Caldari pilots training Minmatar. Caldari gunships are more common than Sacrileges, after all. The only time you'd find this to be untrue would be a Gallente pilot trying to hop into a T2 Phoon, or a Gallente pilot trying to hop into a Raven. Big whoop.


The Phoon/Naglfar are actually deal breakers for people stepping into "max skilled" battleships from other races. Triple split weapons systems ftw. I guess.

-Liang

Aesheera
Amarr
PWNED FACTOR HOLDINGS
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:15:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Aesheera on 05/09/2008 17:21:29
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Amarr is not a high SP race... certainly not nearly as high as Minnies. What, you think you're special in that you need cap skills? Rolling Eyes

-Liang


Ridiculous statement from someone that usually has well formed comments.

Amarr ARE skill intensive to play, especially compared to Gallente and Caldari.
Minmatar are imo the highest SP requiring race to use well, we agree on that, but that second statement you make is flat out nonsense.

Amarr not skill intensive heh, my royal behind to that.

Ghengis Tia
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:18:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Ghengis Tia on 05/09/2008 17:32:46
Training to fly Typhoon,
picking up Maelstrom on the way,
in it for the long run?
Aye, matey, aye.....

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:36:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Meichi Li


This argument is ridiculous. A good battleship pilot of any race will have drone skills, cap skills, good skills in at least one weapons system and one tanking type, and good navigation skills.

Simply put, good battleship pilots have good skills. Training for armor tanking takes three weeks with terrible attributes. Training for shield tanking it about the same, though tack on a few weeks if you want a T2 boost amp.

A Gallente pilot with crap gunnery skills, drone skills, armor tanking skills, cap skills, and drone skills will be crap in any ship. And with good skills, all that pilot needs to fly another race's ship (this is especially true with Amarr and Gallente) is the respective racial gun/ship skills.

So you're saying that a character with good skills for every Amarr ship would be good in a Minmatar ship? Shocking. It's the same for Caldari pilots training Minmatar. Caldari gunships are more common than Sacrileges, after all. The only time you'd find this to be untrue would be a Gallente pilot trying to hop into a T2 Phoon, or a Gallente pilot trying to hop into a Raven. Big whoop.


You have no clue. Sorry but a 2 month old gallente char will kick any other races 2 month char in pvp and a 2 month caldari char will make more money then any other 2 month old char when it comes to pve.

You can reason all you like but this is the truth.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:37:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/09/2008 17:38:39
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 05/09/2008 17:38:07
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

Wth are you on about? You know how long it takes for a good amarr character to crosstrain minmatar? Not long, a fully fledged amarr pilot will have armor tanking, gunnery, missiles, drones, cap skills, nav skills. Oh right, so we need to train a little projectiles and shield tanking. Big deal. Amarr is high sp race just like minmatar. Its gallente and caldari that are the easy mode pvp and resp pve races.


You train T2 Cruise/Torps with excellent support why? You trained Falloff 5 why? You trained shield tanking skills why? Amarr is not a high SP race... certainly not nearly as high as Minnies. What, you think you're special in that you need cap skills? Rolling Eyes

-Liang


Uhm and you trained HAMS and rockets to t2 why (oh and with that we also train the support skills too you know)? And you trained cap skills to 5? why? Sorry but amarr isnt that far behind minmatar when it comes to being sp intense. Oh and curses have been shield tanking for quite some time now fyi.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:42:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You have no clue. Sorry but a 2 month old gallente char will kick any other races 2 month char in pvp and a 2 month caldari char will make more money then any other 2 month old char when it comes to pve.


These days I'm not sure that's really true.

Quote:
You can reason all you like but this is the truth.


You can evade the truth all you want.

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:44:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

Uhm and you trained HAMS and rockets to t2 why (oh and with that we also train the support skills too you know)? And you trained cap skills to 5? why? Sorry but amarr isnt that far behind minmatar when it comes to being sp intense. Oh and curses have been shield tanking for quite some time now fyi.


HAMs are not Torps and Cruise. You are not ready for the Phoon nearly as quickly as I am ready for any Amarr ship.

Oh, and I trained cap skills for Thermodynamics and the active tanking bonus matari ships get. EVERYONE trains cap skills.

And just fyi, but curses don't actually shield tank (unless you call that LSE a "shield tank").

-Liang

Meichi Li
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:45:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
You have no clue. Sorry but a 2 month old gallente char will kick any other races 2 month char in pvp and a 2 month caldari char will make more money then any other 2 month old char when it comes to pve.

You can reason all you like but this is the truth.


EVE is balanced around two month old characters now? Sure, it's true that things are a little different at two months old. Most characters are still training learning skills, though I guess a two month old Caldari character could be in a Drake grinding missions by then. Stop grasping at straws.

Aesheera
Amarr
PWNED FACTOR HOLDINGS
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:46:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

Uhm and you trained HAMS and rockets to t2 why (oh and with that we also train the support skills too you know)? And you trained cap skills to 5? why? Sorry but amarr isnt that far behind minmatar when it comes to being sp intense. Oh and curses have been shield tanking for quite some time now fyi.


This.
Its not evading truth, its telling it.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:47:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Aesheera
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

Uhm and you trained HAMS and rockets to t2 why (oh and with that we also train the support skills too you know)? And you trained cap skills to 5? why? Sorry but amarr isnt that far behind minmatar when it comes to being sp intense. Oh and curses have been shield tanking for quite some time now fyi.


This.
Its not evading truth, its telling it.



So suddenly nobody but Amar needs to train cap skills, and somehow T2 hams/rockets equate to T2 torps/cruise?

-Liang

Clone 231B
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.09.05 17:56:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

Uhm and you trained HAMS and rockets to t2 why (oh and with that we also train the support skills too you know)? And you trained cap skills to 5? why? Sorry but amarr isnt that far behind minmatar when it comes to being sp intense. Oh and curses have been shield tanking for quite some time now fyi.


HAMs are not Torps and Cruise. You are not ready for the Phoon nearly as quickly as I am ready for any Amarr ship.

Oh, and I trained cap skills for Thermodynamics and the active tanking bonus matari ships get. EVERYONE trains cap skills.

And just fyi, but curses don't actually shield tank (unless you call that LSE a "shield tank").

-Liang


Wow liang you are still on this anti-amarr kick? I thought after 2 years of the same stuff you would have gotten bored with it by now.

Anyway, fall-off V is not anywhere near a requirement to be a good minnie pilot, 5% to your fall-off isn't that huge of a deal. Of course since you do not have to train controlled burst at all, I guess that SP should go somewhere eh?

Minnie is not nearly as hard as some like to claim. Minnies don't really need advanced weapon upgrades trained at all for their sub caps, while amarr need it at lvl 5 to fit some of their ships. That one skill alone is worth torps and torp spec trained up.

Energy sys op and energy management V are nearly required to fly amarrian ships because of the huge cap problem without them, those two to V is a similar if not greater sp investment to training up nearly all shield mods to T2. I wouldn't exactly say overheating is a requirement, not comparable to the amarrian's need for high cap skills.

While minnies may require a trivial amount more sp to fly all thier ships effectively, Its nothing like what you claim.

Leave it alone.

Meichi Li
Garoun Investment Bank
Posted - 2008.09.05 18:10:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Meichi Li on 05/09/2008 18:10:37
Originally by: Clone 231B
Minnie is not nearly as hard as some like to claim. Minnies don't really need advanced weapon upgrades trained at all for their sub caps, while amarr need it at lvl 5 to fit some of their ships. That one skill alone is worth torps and torp spec trained up.


Artillery Cane, Artillery Munnin, Artillery Tempest, need I go on? Or do you like fitting RCUs to your ships?

Originally by: Clone 231B

Energy sys op and energy management V are nearly required to fly amarrian ships because of the huge cap problem without them, those two to V is a similar if not greater sp investment to training up nearly all shield mods to T2. I wouldn't exactly say overheating is a requirement, not comparable to the amarrian's need for high cap skills.


Again, everyone trains cap skills. MWDs, scrams, shield boosters, remote reps, etc. These things all use cap. Minmatar has the lowest base cap, and lousiest base regen. An Apoc with good cap skills has higher base cap regen than a full rack of Megapulse II uses anyway. Cap is an issue for everyone. Minmatar are no exception.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.09.05 18:17:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Clone 231B
Wow liang you are still on this anti-amarr kick? I thought after 2 years of the same stuff you would have gotten bored with it by now.


I spent the first year campaigning for the Amarr boost, actually. It wasn't until they kept getting boost after boost after boost (and kept whining none the less, even though their ships were fine by that point) that I started any sort of anti-Amarr campaign.

Quote:
Anyway, fall-off V is not anywhere near a requirement to be a good minnie pilot, 5% to your fall-off isn't that huge of a deal. Of course since you do not have to train controlled burst at all, I guess that SP should go somewhere eh?


Controlled Bursts 5 = 8 days, Falloff 5 = 30 days. You tell me which one is "skill intensive".

Also, Optimal + Falloff = 38.5% DPS. 38.5%. Yes, 5% more falloff matters.

Quote:
Minnie is not nearly as hard as some like to claim. Minnies don't really need advanced weapon upgrades trained at all for their sub caps


Two words: 1400mm Artillery. Kthx.

Quote:
while amarr need it at lvl 5 to fit some of their ships. That one skill alone is worth torps and torp spec trained up.


This might be true if Minnies didn't need AWU5. Shame your theory doesn't hold up.

Quote:
Energy sys op and energy management V are nearly required to fly amarrian ships because of the huge cap problem without them, those two to V is a similar if not greater sp investment to training up nearly all shield mods to T2. I wouldn't exactly say overheating is a requirement, not comparable to the amarrian's need for high cap skills.


Ok, EVERYONE trains these cap skills. Energy Management 5 and Energy Sys Op 5 are required skills for every pilot. Please understand that. Claiming you have to train them is like claiming that you need BC 5 to fly a command ship. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
While minnies may require a trivial amount more sp to fly all thier ships effectively, Its nothing like what you claim.


It's not trivial, as I've shown already. What is trivial is the "skill advantage" that Amarr players say that they have to have just to be competitive. It all revolves around the myth that Amarr pilots are the only ones that have to train cap skills.

And hell, Laser ships are frequently buffer tanked with a cap injector. Really need your cap skills for that, eh? Not that we need cap skills to take advantage of our active shield tank bonus. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Leave it alone.


No, not until it's recognized that Amarr is not nearly as "hard" to fly as they claim.

-Liang

Yelram
Minmatar
AnTi.
Posted - 2008.09.05 18:29:00 - [26]
 

Obviously there's more training involved with Minmatar. Anyone that argues against this is just being a jerk.

As for using Minnie bs' again, lets say 6-9 months. They have to keep the training rotation going to keep subscriptions going. More training, less playing, I think that's the way it works.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.09.05 18:33:00 - [27]
 

Minnie might be the most sp intense race but amarr is second. You can write all the essays you like with worthless missguiding info and that will not change. Claiming amarr is not skill intense is a joke.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.09.05 18:44:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Minnie might be the most sp intense race but amarr is second. You can write all the essays you like with worthless missguiding info and that will not change. Claiming amarr is not skill intense is a joke.


Claiming that Amarr is skill intensive because of cap skills is a joke.

-Liang

Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2008.09.05 18:47:00 - [29]
 

Amarr: Drones, Cap, Gunnery, Armor, etc. And that's just the beginning.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.09.05 18:52:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Minnie might be the most sp intense race but amarr is second. You can write all the essays you like with worthless missguiding info and that will not change. Claiming amarr is not skill intense is a joke.


Claiming that Amarr is skill intensive because of cap skills is a joke.

-Liang


That is not the point and you know it. You're just trolling now. You know that it takes a long time before an amarr char is generally better then a gallente char in pvp and that it also takes forever if at all to get the same pve ability of a caldari char. That is all we claimed, that amarr are the close 2nd sp intense race after minmatar. You are out of your mind if you claim anything else. But I can see why you need to lie and twist words after saying something so stupid earlier.


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