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Reven Cordelle
Caldari
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:21:00 - [1]
 

Okay, I hate to compare EVE to WoW because they're completely different...

Rather, I shall contrast EVE, to WoW... In how goddamn overpowered CONCORD are in High Sec space.

Last night, I was wandering around in WoW, when all of a sudden one of my friends gets all up in my face shouting;

"OMGZ STORMWIND IS BEING RUSHED BY HORDIES"

Which imo, was ****ing awesome. All the bad dudes had piled together and stormed what is essentially a perfectly safe spot, killed hundreds of players and NPCs that are supposed to protect the players, and then eventually the good guys grouped together and wiped them out and retaliated.

**** was crazy. Stormwind isn't contested territory. Its essentially Jita or Rens, minus all the lag.

So you got a bunch of people in Low Sec thinking "Lets storm the **** out of Jita, blow up some fools", they pull together a huge force, fit their ships with awesome gear ready to literally **** up High Sec and put the fear of god into everyone in it.

So they jump into high sec with their -10 sec statuses and get blown to **** instantly.

Thats it.

No fun, no ganking, no epic fights with the police.

Nothing.

No one in High Sec even realised they were in danger.

What the hell.

If WoW is supposed to be the ultimate carebear experience, why the hell did hundreds of low level newbies get killed last night in their safezone, why did half the bloody NPC guards die as well? Hell, I think they killed the king too!

There was mass panic, people running all over the place, and an absolutely huge pile of skeletons by the main tram connecting two major cities.

EVE, cold and harsh.. but goddamn, you cant even rush high sec because some stupidly immortal ships blow you up before you get a chance? To me that seems complete bull****.

Tone it down, stop making players so ****ing safe. If people can get ganked in STORMWIND of all places in WoW, I really think EVE is becoming a bit too newbie friendly.

Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:26:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Reven Cordelle

If WoW is supposed to be the ultimate carebear experience, why the hell did hundreds of low level newbies get killed last night in their safezone

Those newbies just respawned somewhere else, all their gear intact. Same with everyone else.


Reven Cordelle
Caldari
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:33:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Roy Batty68
Originally by: Reven Cordelle

If WoW is supposed to be the ultimate carebear experience, why the hell did hundreds of low level newbies get killed last night in their safezone

Those newbies just respawned somewhere else, all their gear intact. Same with everyone else.




True, so we shelter players because they can't afford ships, when the most basic of ships is generally free.

I just feel it seems... a bit **** that High Sec is completely impenetrable to anything thanks to CONCORD.

Don't want to get blown up when the pirates come? Just ****ing dock then.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:33:00 - [4]
 

Well I guess at this point the next thing to wait in fear of is CCP adding insurance that covers the cost of destroyed fittings.

Draaken
Caldari
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:41:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Reven Cordelle
All the bad dudes had piled together(...)

So you got a bunch of people in Low Sec (...) So they jump into high sec with their -10 sec statuses

You forget that WOW doesn't have anything resembling EVE's security status. So your WOW "bad guys" are EVE's pirates without the sec status penalties, and then it's a different ballgame.
They'd enter high-sec, go to Jita, blow a boat load of people up, probably some Concord too, and eventually they'd die to Concord guns -- although mostly because if they didn't, they'd be exploiting according to EVE rules, another thing that's different to WOW. In the end it'd result in a high kill count in Jita, maybe a few nice faction ships killed and all of the "bad guys" losing their stuff too - and maybe being podded by their just-a-minute-ago victim.

It's certainly possible to do, but due to some different basic settings and rules - namely having security status, declaring not dying to NPC police/guards an exploit and having real loss of gear - it's an entirely different event in EVE and WOW, and thus not really comparable.

Saffin
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:48:00 - [6]
 

My understanding of WOW may be off, but if stormwind isnt contested, the only n00bs that could die are ones that attacked the horde first?

So isnt this much more comparable to the minmatar militia going to amarr and killing all the amarr militia, which can happen if they use enough people to rush the faction police.

Saf

Reven Cordelle
Caldari
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:49:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Saffin
My understanding of WOW may be off, but if stormwind isnt contested, the only n00bs that could die are ones that attacked the horde first?

So isnt this much more comparable to the minmatar militia going to amarr and killing all the amarr militia, which can happen if they use enough people to rush the faction police.

Saf


If you're on a PVP Server, Horde vs Alliance is constant in any area of the world. No one has to shoot "first".

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:52:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Draaken

You forget that WOW doesn't have anything resembling EVE's security status. So your WOW "bad guys" are EVE's pirates without the sec status penalties, and then it's a different ballgame.


In WoW, if your on a PVP server there is nothing to stop you going and ganking lowbie players all day long. In WoW there is nothing to stop 40 people going to a capital city and ganking all and sundry, killing all the NPC's and generally be a pain to newbies. In fact in many cases, killing high end NPC's and ganking every player your meet is actually beneficial to you.

The newbies only defence is to hope high end NPC's will defend them or high level characters will come to there aid. EVE doesn't really have that because of the interfaction fighting...there is no real interfaction comaraderie in EVE.

Saffin
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:52:00 - [9]
 

I was on a PvP server (was a long time ago tho), i thought that was only true in contested territories. I thought if you were in your own territory then you could attack them, but they could not attack you unless you accept a duel or attack them first. ie they can defend themselves but not attack.

Confuzer
Volition Cult
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:56:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Confuzer on 03/09/2008 08:57:48
You can roam 0.0 with a huge blob and shoot everybody there. And even that you can't do properly. You only want to grief because you find that OMGZ KEWLZ and because it's easy.

If you want to do this properly, just join FW and storm the systems with your huge blobs.

(aah, that was all the lag from last night? WoW just stalled a few minutes. (yes CCP, that's what you get with long downtime, people trying WoW :P)

Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:58:00 - [11]
 

Supposedly there was (before my time) a time when CONCORD wasn't the overpowered insta death squad it is today. There was a pirate corp, mOo or Zombies or something, that camped the gates in Yulai (the Jita of the time) and popped everyone that came through. CCP didn't want that level of freedom in hisec and has continually upped CONCORD and gate guns pretty much ever year since release.


Eve will never be a true social experiment in regards to letting the players work out their problems like the example above. Players probably could have if enough collective will had been worked up. It's what makes things like the Privateers nerf so unfortunate. It would have been truely interesting to see how players would have responded to those sort of problems once they'd had enough.

But on the flip side, Eve is just a game that appeals to a rather wide spectrum of player types. And it is probably a tough balancing act trying to maintain an environment that is enjoyable for everyone.


So while I'd prefer to see something like you describe put in place, and let the "virtual world" evolve by players adapting and being creative, it'll probably never happen. CCP want things more controlled than not in hisec, as do the majority of players apparently. Majority rules.


Joza Gulikoza
The first genesis
Posted - 2008.09.03 08:59:00 - [12]
 

So basically you are suggesting to make high sec into low sec? Or just want it more like wow? The way high sec works now you have to think before you shoot. Eve is a different concept and yeah I wouldn't mind losing my multi billion freighter in high sec if it just respawned again in station with all its cargo intact... Now if you feel the need to indiscriminately shoot everyone you see I suggest low sec it's there it's doable but the die-respawn game you are describing sounds more like a FPS to me. It's not Eve.

Nexus1972
Pat Sharp's Potato Rodeo
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:00:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Reven Cordelle
Originally by: Saffin
My understanding of WOW may be off, but if stormwind isnt contested, the only n00bs that could die are ones that attacked the horde first?

So isnt this much more comparable to the minmatar militia going to amarr and killing all the amarr militia, which can happen if they use enough people to rush the faction police.

Saf


If you're on a PVP Server, Horde vs Alliance is constant in any area of the world. No one has to shoot "first".


Last time I checked in contested zones such as starter areas and capital cities of your own faction and allies you cannot be pvp'ed unless u either set ur pvp flag or attack first.

Brachis
Caldari
Eve Liberation Force
OWN Alliance
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:01:00 - [14]
 

The difference is that attacks like that can drive players completely away in EVE. It has nothing to do with being a newbie or not. The fact is that in EVE there are harsher penalties for losing a fight than in just about any other MMO, and that kind of innate risk doesn't need to be compounded by an environment in which a decent experienced 0.0 force can just tear through high-sec wrecking everyone's day, AND the economy.

In most cases, yeah, if a player, even a new player, loses a ship, it's not a permanent or irreplaceable loss, but the fact is that there IS loss being induced on other players, and intentionally so by a bunch of bored jerks who have nothing better to do than make life harder for players who aren't doing them any harm.

At the end of the day, griefing is an art only practiced by people who suck too badly to hack it in large scale 0.0 operations and warfare, but think they're hot stuff when they can troll around blowing up bystanders.

Camille Breeze
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:06:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Camille Breeze on 03/09/2008 09:11:45
Edited by: Camille Breeze on 03/09/2008 09:08:01
Edited by: Camille Breeze on 03/09/2008 09:07:30
To clarify some of the bull**** the OP stated in thge 1st post.

First of all, this ain't WoW.

Second, if someone decides to attack lets say Stormwind, which is on non-contested territory, he cannot attack other players unless they attack first. Sure you can kill the guards which suck anyway. So.. no, you didn't kill any newbies, unless they decided to die. Killing them gives no profit, nor do they loose anything.

Never compare WoW to EVE.

Quote:

If you're on a PVP Server, Horde vs Alliance is constant in any area of the world. No one has to shoot "first".


And where did you hear that? Becouse obviously you never played WoW. Non-contested zones are always safe zones, pvp or pve servers alike

Bruja Ry
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:12:00 - [16]
 

You can compare wow to EVE, when they change it so if you die in wow, you lose most of you gear, and your dead body can be looted if you don't return to it fast enough.

Xevan Templar
Gallente
7th Batavian Squadron
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:14:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Camille Breeze

Second, if someone decides to attack lets say Stormwind, which is on non-contested territory, he cannot attack other players unless they attack first.


This. Even on a PVP server, if the alliance players are not PvP enabled by default, the horde can't attack them in Stormwind. They can only attacked alliance players if they are just coming out of a BG, or have it turned on themselves (setting PVP on by default).

So the comparison doesn't hold.


Sun Shiang
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:18:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Sun Shiang on 03/09/2008 09:20:10
Im just finding it funny that you're alliance in wow and caldari in eve... tbh that says a lot about you...

...and to top it off, the horde are the bad guysLaughing

Sydonis
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:31:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Sydonis on 03/09/2008 09:32:13
Brachis: you forgot to mention that a lot of high-sec players are industrialists keeping the player-driven EVE market fluid... something else that a lot of MMO don't have.

But yeah, without CONCORD, it would be impossible to be able to run any kind of a business with the constant hassle you would get. One night it would be the Goons who got bored and went for a "night on the town" in empire... then it might be BoB who decided that, since they'd lost a couple of hauling alts or something, that they'd want to hit an area that they know Goons haul in, hitting a whole bunch of guys just to make sure they hit a goon... and then another 0.0 group might want to pile in too...

You honestly think that piracy would survive as a profession if it was that easy? I've run with the big boys and, my god, how some of them would love to run through empire ganking everything just for kicks and know that they had plenty of time to do it. And guess what... pirates are targets just like anyone else to someone looking for kills and, since those guys would probably bring a full-strength fleet, would probably die as quickly as anything else.

Does Jita REALLY need a couple of hundred more pilots in it? Especially looking to unleash drones, missiles and guns all over the place?

In EVE, those same "safe" players would have lost ships that they may not have been strong enough to replace yet and may have lost months of progress and also industrialists would have lost cargos that meant a lot to them too.

I'm all for EVE being rough, but it's all risk vs reward - you want the reward, you take the risk... you're happy with low returns, fine... you'll be safer (note safeR, not safe). The same also goes for those looking to prey on the high-sec crowd... you want those fat freighters, fine... but you'll be looking to spend a week recovering from it...

I think CCP want to stop the griefing in high-sec and, instead, encourage more piracy in high-sec (there IS a difference - one is killing for fun, the other is business - ie killing for profit), but make it so that the high-sec pirates either need to grind NPC spawns to recover (like the victims will to replace their ships and cargos/fittings) or start a life of low-sec piracy. All CCP have done is bring the Newtonian Elimination aspect of EVE to high-sec piracy, IMO. Those who are bright will work out their bottom line (including time spent grinding security ratings) and not hit anything that will lose them money, while those who are stupid will end up losing money until they're no longer a threat.

I think people need to think about complaints before making them (yes, I'm just as guilty, so not preaching here) and, especially, think of the consequences of such actions... both to themselves and to the general market from which they buy their goods (remembering that recycled loot and ore/minerals mined are worth market value and are not free, when working out profit/loss). I think some would be surprised at just how much they rely on the empire markets (except those larger organisations in deep 0.0 and even they sell in empire usually - if only in part).

Sorry for the length, got carried away... again... Laughing

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:40:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Opertone on 03/09/2008 09:46:07
piracy in this game does not work well...

because low sec is locked out, camped 24/7, its population is null

if pirates didn't block out gates and stations and gave other players a chance, there would be more frequent visitors to low sec and more targets to play with

carebears quickly learn their lessons, pirates slaughter them on jump in point giving not a slightest chance to make money

when gate camping is reduced there will be more carebear targets in betls

Zeknichov
Life. Universe. Everything.
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:46:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Opertone
piracy in this game does work well...

because low sec is locked out, camped 24/7, its population is null

if pirates didn't block out gates and stations and gave other players a chance, there would be more frequent visitors to low sec and more targets to play with

carebears quickly learn their lessons, pirates slaughter them on jump in point giving not a slightest chance to make money

when gate camping is reduced there will be more carebear targets in betls


Hardly. The benefits in low-sec compared to Empire just aren't there. In fact I have access to 0.0 space and I can make billions in Empire. There's just no reason to be in low-sec.

Call'Da Poleece
Posted - 2008.09.03 11:29:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Zeknichov
Originally by: Opertone
piracy in this game does work well...

because low sec is locked out, camped 24/7, its population is null

if pirates didn't block out gates and stations and gave other players a chance, there would be more frequent visitors to low sec and more targets to play with

carebears quickly learn their lessons, pirates slaughter them on jump in point giving not a slightest chance to make money

when gate camping is reduced there will be more carebear targets in betls


Hardly. The benefits in low-sec compared to Empire just aren't there. In fact I have access to 0.0 space and I can make billions in Empire. There's just no reason to be in low-sec.

Yeah, its not the hic gangs at the low sec choke points close to high population areas of the game thats stopping people going to low sec, its the crap rewards. CCP nerf everything but low sec.

MMXMMX
Caldari
Bendebeukers
Green Rhino
Posted - 2008.09.03 11:30:00 - [23]
 

Go to 0.0

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2008.09.03 11:39:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Roy Batty68
Originally by: Reven Cordelle

If WoW is supposed to be the ultimate carebear experience, why the hell did hundreds of low level newbies get killed last night in their safezone

Those newbies just respawned somewhere else, all their gear intact. Same with everyone else.


This.

I don't think you can draw comparisons between games where someone respawns with *nothing* except the contents of his wallet and a game where death is meaningless because you respawn with everything you had when you died, in the same condition.

Eve IS harsh as MMORPGs go, easily the harshest I've come across. How many games do you know of where when you die you lose everything you were carrying permanently?

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2008.09.03 11:44:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Reven Cordelle
Okay, I hate to compare EVE to WoW because they're completely different...

Rather, I shall contrast EVE, to WoW... In how goddamn overpowered CONCORD are in High Sec space.

Last night, I was wandering around in WoW, when all of a sudden one of my friends gets all up in my face shouting;

"OMGZ STORMWIND IS BEING RUSHED BY HORDIES"

Which imo, was ****ing awesome. All the bad dudes had piled together and stormed what is essentially a perfectly safe spot, killed hundreds of players and NPCs that are supposed to protect the players, and then eventually the good guys grouped together and wiped them out and retaliated.

**** was crazy. Stormwind isn't contested territory. Its essentially Jita or Rens, minus all the lag.

So you got a bunch of people in Low Sec thinking "Lets storm the **** out of Jita, blow up some fools", they pull together a huge force, fit their ships with awesome gear ready to literally **** up High Sec and put the fear of god into everyone in it.

So they jump into high sec with their -10 sec statuses and get blown to **** instantly.

Thats it.

No fun, no ganking, no epic fights with the police.

Nothing.

No one in High Sec even realised they were in danger.

What the hell.

If WoW is supposed to be the ultimate carebear experience, why the hell did hundreds of low level newbies get killed last night in their safezone, why did half the bloody NPC guards die as well? Hell, I think they killed the king too!

There was mass panic, people running all over the place, and an absolutely huge pile of skeletons by the main tram connecting two major cities.

EVE, cold and harsh.. but goddamn, you cant even rush high sec because some stupidly immortal ships blow you up before you get a chance? To me that seems complete bull****.

Tone it down, stop making players so ****ing safe. If people can get ganked in STORMWIND of all places in WoW, I really think EVE is becoming a bit too newbie friendly.


And what did they all lose? Not a hole hell of alot...maybe their quest was delayed a few seconds...

Meanwhile in Eve-online...ganked players lose MILLIONS of isk...which equals many hours mining/or belt ratting.

No, Concord needs to be bigger, badder,meaner...They need to be the biggest baddest mudderpockers in the game! And Empire gankers need to pay the price for the little risk they take for the big reward they are after....





Antoine Lefevre
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2008.09.03 11:44:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Well I guess at this point the next thing to wait in fear of is CCP adding insurance that covers the cost of destroyed fittings.

I'm scared. Sad

Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2008.09.03 11:44:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Yakia TovilToba on 03/09/2008 11:44:57

I suggest you to go back to your cold and harsh world of warcraft and stop trolling EvE forums with nonsense comparisons like this.

Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
Posted - 2008.09.03 11:49:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Durzel on 03/09/2008 11:49:26
Originally by: Opertone
carebears quickly learn their lessons, pirates slaughter them on jump in point giving not a slightest chance to make money

when gate camping is reduced there will be more carebear targets in betls
I can't really see a solution to this with the current mechanics.

Pirates complain about shortage of targets in low-sec, when they only want to blow up these targets anyway - it's kinda like a mass murderer complaining of no one visiting his house anymore.

You have to have either have a predisposition towards PvP (pirate), be clueless about its dangers (newbies) or sufficiently motivated to take the ridiculously higher risks to go there (carebears). Right now there is nothing in low-sec in terms of reward that remotely compares to the ever-present risk of losing your ship. Until missions pay out an equivalent of a corresponding ship+fittings (e.g. L4 missions paying ~100 million a pop) then there will be no incentive for someone who is naturally adverse to PvP to go there, ipso facto with the current system there will always be a shortage of people (aka targets) in low-sec.

Obviously you can't buff low-sec to the point where actually running missions compensates for the risk, but equally I can't see a way of dealing with the gate-camp/blobbing "problem" that exists there. It is the natural order of things that pirates will gravitate towards solutions that involve the least cost and maximum chance of success. Pirates, whilst talking a big game, are not that different than carebears in the grand scheme of things - your average pirate will choose the path of least resistance and avoid fights where they know THEY have an increased chance of losing THEIR ships, all the while complaining about their barrel of fish being empty.

Stork DK
Minmatar
Risky eXplosion
Death or Glory
Posted - 2008.09.03 11:56:00 - [29]
 

Everytime you use EvE and W*W in the same sentence a kitten dies.

Please mind the kittens...

Pilot Abilene
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.09.03 12:04:00 - [30]
 

OP doesn't get EVE, hell OP doesn't even get WOW...


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