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CCP Explorer

Posted - 2008.09.06 17:37:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 17:51:50
Originally by: Arna Padrona
1) Asteroid belts no longer sort in order in the system menu.
See here.
Originally by: Arna Padrona
2) Switching tabs disables all target reticles. They re-appear when you click the targets.
I tested this; neither the spinning target boxes next to the the overview nor in space disappeared. But the target lines that extend to the sides of the windows (the crosshairs) disappeared and didn't come back. This is not new to Empyrean Age 1.1, there's a defect on this issue since Trinity 1.1.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2008.09.06 17:47:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Arna Padrona

If you change a tab, that text isn't there, is it? It just reads "not saved", or even with 5 different "not saved" settings, that still says nothing of any use. The only way I can read the name of the current setting in the overview header is if I use my tab to load SETTINGS and not use it as a WORKSPACE...



Knowing an custom Overview Tab label doesn't give you a clear indication on WHICH two templates have been applied to construct the Tab. You're only getting half the information.

The first thing they need to solve is how to display those two settings without having the players run their mouse through a marathon. The information is there, but it's not within easy access.

The second thing they need to re-consider is usage. From the CCP replies, I'm getting the feeling that they're treating the two settings as explicit and absolute. In other words, encourage the players to setup as many settings as possible and load them as you see fit for the different situations. There's nothing wrong with this. However, they seem to be forgetting players who routinely modify these settings on-the-fly, who got penalized due to the removal of the quick revert-back/reset function.

Arna Padrona
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.09.06 18:04:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Arna Padrona
2) Switching tabs disables all target reticles. They re-appear when you click the targets.
I tested this; neither the spinning target boxes next to the the overview nor in space disappeared. But the target lines that extend to the sides of the windows (the crosshairs) disappeared and didn't come back. This is not new to Empyrean Age 1.1, there's a defect on this issue since Trinity 1.1.


Target reticles in space vanish, box, lines and spinner. Try switching between tabs that have different bracket settings. If that doesn't work, I'll guess I'll have to do the job and find the exact bug.

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2008.09.06 18:21:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 18:27:01
Originally by: Arna Padrona
Target reticles in space vanish, box, lines and spinner. Try switching between tabs that have different bracket settings.
Had two tabs with different overview and bracket profiles (one showing stations and the other not showing them). Targeted a station and switched tabs. The crosshairs disappeared but not the spinning box. Tried again with two profiles neither of which showed stations. Same result, only the crosshairs disappeared. Try with empty settings/cache (rename the settings/cache parent folder). Same result? Are you targeting one or more items?

Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2008.09.06 18:49:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 06/09/2008 18:50:47
When undocking, or joining a fleet, the tabs go haywire.

The selected items window usually moves below the overview, having a chat window minimized and right-click closing it also screws up the way you have your windows setup.

You can't pin them in the position you want them to stay them in... grr...

Edit: Also, say you have a few items in your market's quick list. If you right-click and remove all of them, the market window decides to spontaneously load up about 1000 entries into it instead.

Jesho
Minmatar
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2008.09.06 20:39:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
We have considered having more than one "Not Saved" setting, essentially S1 and S1* and S2 and S2* (where the * is the often used indicator that a something has changed but has not yet been saved). In that design T1 would switch from S1 to S1+M1=S1* and T2 would switch from S2 to S2+M2=S2*.

that or something similar is what I've always wanted, even before you introduced the tabs.

i was thinking something like: if you load a saved setting this is marked as active for that tab, possibly with some kind of radio button in the menu to indicate that its the active one.
and then any changes made is auto saved back to that active setting.

Originally by: CCP Explorer
But we want to keep this simple and not add buttons and options all over if that doesn't solve the use cases.
Yes, keep it simple.
i'm not sure i think the current overview is simple, just look at the number of guides out there on how to setup the overview.
but its not easy to change now that everyone has gotten used to how the current behavior.

it should be so easy to setup that you don't need any guides to figure out how it works.

and i don't agree with the change you made to remove the Default tab when you have custom tabs, it's odd and not intuitive

Jesho
Minmatar
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2008.09.06 20:53:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
You are misunderstanding the behaviour of the tabs. They don't overwrite your settings, they are simply workspaces that switch from one setting to another. Your Word document example is the opposite behaviour of the tabs.
if i understand your previous post changing any tab makes it use the "not saved" setting and since that is global you just potentially destroyed another tabs "not saved" setting.

i think that's where the overwrite part came from.

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2008.09.06 21:39:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 21:40:13
Originally by: Jesho
if i understand your previous post changing any tab makes it use the "not saved" setting and since that is global you just potentially destroyed another tabs "not saved" setting.
Yes, except since the Not saved profile is global and common to all the tabs, then strictly speaking there is no such thing as "another tabs "not saved" setting". The Not saved profile is a fluid/dynamic profile of "recently changed filters".

RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Black Viper Nomads
Posted - 2008.09.06 22:45:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Just to break the subject of borked "tabs"...the scanner GUI for probe deployment is now broken.
See here.


It was worth repeating...you know...because I love scrolling through "known issue/bug" threads when things that worked fine pre-patch suddenly go wonky in an annoying fashion. And it's not just "exploration probes" as you say....its ship probes as well (you know...Fathoms and such) and it does NOT correct itself after initial probe drop ugh.

Less arrogance.....more fix please.

And yeah....the new tabs (regardless of your attempts to explain them) are utterly unfriendly as compared to previous. It's cool though...I deleted them all and returned to using the awesome "right-click little tiny arrow thingy on OV" method to actually get my OV settings changing as normal Confused.

It's not that I don't appreciate the responses (at least ya'll talk to us...and sometimes listen)...but fixing what ain't broke seems counter-intuitive.


CCP Explorer

Posted - 2008.09.06 22:53:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 22:54:27
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
it's not just "exploration probes" as you say....its ship probes as well (you know...Fathoms and such) and it does NOT correct itself after initial probe drop
Has been fixed internally and will be released later.
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
And yeah....the new tabs (...) It's not that I don't appreciate the responses (at least ya'll talk to us...and sometimes listen)...but fixing what ain't broke seems counter-intuitive.
According to the player made defect we got it was broken before Sad

SK Rooster
No Trademark
Posted - 2008.09.06 23:15:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
The steps before to reset tab A involved two mouse clicks: Click tab B and then tab A again. Now you right-click tab A and click the overview setting you want (you can also load another bracket setting).



this is simply not correct. as stated in my previous post IN THIS THREAD, "the steps before to reset tab A" involved ONE mouse click, not two. if you changed any settings for a tab, you could simply click the tab that you wanted reverted, even if it was the active tab, and it would change back to the saved settings. this "broken" status as you have told us was "reported as a defect", that is an opinion of the person that made the defect.

who is to say that it was a defect when to many people IN THIS THREAD, it is agreed that the old method was simpler and more intuitive than the current system. in fact:

Originally by: RuleoftheBone
...the new tabs (regardless of your attempts to explain them) are utterly unfriendly as compared to previous. It's cool though...I deleted them all and returned to using the awesome "right-click little tiny arrow thingy on OV" method to actually get my OV settings changing as normal.


i will be doing the same as this person until the tabs are fixed to the previous state. now tell me, how does it reflect that there are some people that are so put off by the new system that they would rather delete all tabs then use them in the current state?

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2008.09.07 02:19:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 07/09/2008 02:51:56
Originally by: RuleoftheBone

And yeah....the new tabs (regardless of your attempts to explain them) are utterly unfriendly as compared to previous. It's cool though...I deleted them all and returned to using the awesome "right-click little tiny arrow thingy on OV" method to actually get my OV settings changing as normal Confused.



Oh this is interesting, guess I was too focused on the tabs that I'd overlook the duplicates in the overview arrow - even though it was mentioned in one of my earlier post.

In effect, it meant that the custom tabs act as placeholders for the Bracket Settings. Simply put, you load the overview for ANY custom tab using the arrow and switch tabs accordingly to get the correct Bracket Settings .. in reverse order of course. Pretty odd combination since I think the original intent was to have each custom tab hold both Bracket Settings and Overview Settings Razz

Not as good as the old behaviour, but close enough.

Now, if they can separate the settings so that Overview Settings load from the arrow and Bracket Settings load from right-clicking the custom tab, we might have a winner. Whatever methods, bottomline, they need to provide some distinction for the Brackets Settings so that it doesn't list out with the Overview Settings.

P.S I was talking in the chat channels and the topic on keeping the overview tab settings across multiple clients cropped up. I'm guessing some folks cba to copy these settings across multiple client because there's no easy way to preserve them and package them over. So it's probably under utilized by many folks as it is .. even before 1.1

Kamikaze Dan
Posted - 2008.09.07 07:23:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
According to the player made defect we got it was broken before Sad


Out of interst,how many ppl defected it before, and how many defected the current bahviour. I liked the fact that it would always reset to what I told it to go to after I had clicked away. Current overview tab behaviour = defect.
Also current reprocessing screen = defect / lag monster.

And the lag ... OMG the lag! It jumped *hugely* when Faction warfare came in, and it is almost unplayable this weekend. Yes, I'm a carebear mission runner/industrialist. The places I worked to get access to decent L4 agents 4-6 months ago (never mostu), which had *no* noticable lag, all got lagged with FW intro and no apparent increase in players in local, and now... <sigh> I had times where I would spend 1+ minute waiting for a module to start flashing "I am *trying* to activate" as opposed to even being active.

Dan

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2008.09.07 10:29:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Space Wanderer on 07/09/2008 10:51:21
I think the last patch has done some serious damage to the market system.

I am not docked in jita, but was buying remotely some stuff there (injector overdrive II). Well, I tried to buy from the best offerer, and got the message that essentially says "the order you tried to buy from is not there anymore. Refresh your info.". So, no matter, I try to buy from the second offerer... same message. Third offerer, same thing. Fourth offerer, same thing.

I had the same problem yesterday.

This is strange. The offerers were all selling bulk stuffs, it wasn't only 1 or 2 pieces, and then apparently hundreds of pieces were all sold out. BTW, I have the automatic refresh option active in my settings.

Any explanation of this behavior or we have got a situation here?

Arna Padrona
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.09.07 11:47:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 18:27:01
Originally by: Arna Padrona
Target reticles in space vanish, box, lines and spinner. Try switching between tabs that have different bracket settings.
Had two tabs with different overview and bracket profiles (one showing stations and the other not showing them). Targeted a station and switched tabs. The crosshairs disappeared but not the spinning box. Tried again with two profiles neither of which showed stations. Same result, only the crosshairs disappeared. Try with empty settings/cache (rename the settings/cache parent folder). Same result? Are you targeting one or more items?


The reticles only seem to vanish on tab switching, when you target ASTEROIDS. There may be other objects with the same behaviour, but I have not tested it extensively. Stations work fine, as do NPC ships, sentry guns... Not a game-breaking bug but still a bug.

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2008.09.07 12:54:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Arna Padrona
The reticles only seem to vanish on tab switching, when you target ASTEROIDS. There may be other objects with the same behaviour, but I have not tested it extensively. Stations work fine, as do NPC ships, sentry guns... Not a game-breaking bug but still a bug.
Yes, you're right, there is a another defect on tab switching, targeting and asteroids that describes this issue. This is not new to Empyrean Age 1.1, the defect is since Trinity 1.1.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2008.09.07 13:28:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 07/09/2008 13:35:50
Wrong thread.

Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2008.09.07 20:03:00 - [108]
 

Things that should be client-side
Originally by: gordon861

window positions
screen colours



Things that should be server-side
Originally by: gordon861

overview settings/tabs
bookmark folders
market favourites



Reason: Window positions are really client-specific. If you play EVE on different computers (say, a PC and a laptop with different screen resolutions), you want different settings.

All the rest is character-specific. If should be stored on the server. This also forces CCP to migrate the data properly between version upgrades.

Zanpt
Caldari
Posted - 2008.09.07 23:49:00 - [109]
 

When I have an Overview set up, I expect that clicking on that tab will activate the profile I associated with that tab, not some accumulation of dynamic changes I have made since clicking on that tab. When I remove wrecks or remove structures in a mission, that is dynamic. When I click on the tab I use for missions I expect the items selected in that profile to display, without exception or modification. This is in no way an "undo"... it is simply imposing the associated profile again, wiping out any dynamic changes I have made. If I want to make permanent changes to a profile I'll make them. I don't want the client effectively destroying the tab for me.

dan drorgar
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.09.08 16:51:00 - [110]
 

The market is completely broken.

Yesterday there was a sell order for liquid ozone for 550 ISK in Obe. Buying from that (market data => right click on offer) leads to a 5+ second delay, then:

16:48:32 Info Broker found no match for your order. Others might have been before you, or your quotes might be outdated.

Today(!) the same offer is still up, but the quantity is much lower (37k => 9k) and I still cannot buy, the error message is the same.

Looks very broken to me.

Vandal X
Posted - 2008.09.08 18:45:00 - [111]
 

On Tabs -

I find it both counterintuitive and not useful that the tab setting itself changes due to an "on the fly" adjustment.

The tab settings should be fixed. If I make an "on the fly adjustment", it should disappear the next time I go back to that tab. If I want it to have permanence, I should have to make the change to the settings themselves.

This is nature of having settings - they are fixed, so that you can jump to them immediately. Its great to be able to adjust as the need arises, but those adjustments should disappear as soon as I switch tabs (or refresh the current tab).

One possible solution would be to permit user to designate a setting as being "open" or "fixed". This would make both camps happy (presumably) and since you've had both coded shouldn't be too difficult an adjustment. I could then have 3 "fixed" tabs as well as a 4th tab that will retain adjustments to it.

Thanks.

Veinless
Amarr
Merch Industrial
SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO
Posted - 2008.09.09 00:37:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Vandal X
On Tabs -

I find it both counterintuitive and not useful that the tab setting itself changes due to an "on the fly" adjustment.

The tab settings should be fixed. If I make an "on the fly adjustment", it should disappear the next time I go back to that tab. If I want it to have permanence, I should have to make the change to the settings themselves.

This is nature of having settings - they are fixed, so that you can jump to them immediately. Its great to be able to adjust as the need arises, but those adjustments should disappear as soon as I switch tabs (or refresh the current tab).

One possible solution would be to permit user to designate a setting as being "open" or "fixed". This would make both camps happy (presumably) and since you've had both coded shouldn't be too difficult an adjustment. I could then have 3 "fixed" tabs as well as a 4th tab that will retain adjustments to it.

Thanks.


I like this.

Meebol
Posted - 2008.09.09 20:37:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Meebol on 09/09/2008 20:55:55
Originally by: CCP Explorer
The "5 different "not saved" settings" is what I was describing with the S1 vs. S1* earlier. We have been considering that and may at some point implement that idea.


Hmm. As was explained in earlier posts, tabs and settings are really independent. A tab is a 'workspace' that has some setting currently applied. If you make 5 different "not saved" settings, you've conflated tabs and settings. That makes a confusing situation worse.

I've never tried to load the same setting in >1 tab. If I place S1 into T1 and T2, and cause two different and visually indistinguishable "Not Saved" settings to apply to both (by changing the current settings in each) what now??

First, "Not Saved" is inherently confusing; "change a setting" actually means is "switch to Not Saved" setting. That is not intuitive. The de facto convention adopted by every other "editor" use case I've had recent contact with is some indicator (usually and asterisk) that indicates "S1, modified".

Adopt this intuitive convention and "Not Saved" becomes unnecessary.

This is how:

1.) Maintain the existing design: tabs and settings are independent.

2.) Reserve one "line" at the top of the overview window, just beneath the tabs to clearly display the active setting (player defined) name.

Examples:
Setting: Mining
Setting: PvP
Setting: Scan

3.) When a modification is performed, indicate the modified state in the setting name line.

Example:
Setting: Mining (modified)

This is intuitive. The modified state is now clearly associated with the setting, and the setting hasn't rudely switched to something else ("Not Saved") unbidden.

Avoid conflating setting names and tab names. Allow independent naming. If I'd like to do the obvious thing and name my Tab "Mining" and use that to host my "Mining" setting, fine. If I happen to have some other clever convention, permit that also.

The same setting loaded to >1 tab should allow independent modification:

T1: Setting: Mining (modified)
T2: Setting: Mining (modified)

Thus I may make a "base" setting, load it into two tabs and alter them on the fly without conflicting. If I switch from T1 to T2 and back nothing has been silently reverted (that is SO frustrating.)

Saving T1 or T2 overwrites the "base". That's on me...

No extra controls, less ambiguity, silent reverts vanish, intuitive behavior, 5 different "Not Saved" erupting everywhere is gone... better all around.


CCP Explorer

Posted - 2008.09.10 11:18:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Arna Padrona
The reticles only seem to vanish on tab switching, when you target ASTEROIDS. There may be other objects with the same behaviour, but I have not tested it extensively. Stations work fine, as do NPC ships, sentry guns... Not a game-breaking bug but still a bug.
Yes, you're right, there is a another defect on tab switching, targeting and asteroids that describes this issue. This is not new to Empyrean Age 1.1, the defect is since Trinity 1.1.
Both defects have been fixed internally and will be released in a later update.

CCP Explorer

Posted - 2008.09.10 11:26:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: CCP Explorer on 10/09/2008 11:27:30
Originally by: Captain Apoc
Lock sounds are messed up. You hear "locked" sound too many times while you are locking an object.
This has been fixed internally and will be released in a later update.

The "target locked / target acquired" sound in being extraneously played when an object arrives or leaves your immediate surrounding while your are targeting that same or another object.

Note that it is normal for the "trying to target" sound to be played continuously until the last object has been targeted.

NetMage
Caldari
Arkonide Great Imperium Corporation
Posted - 2008.09.15 04:52:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: CCP Explorer
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 22:54:27
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
And yeah....the new tabs (...) It's not that I don't appreciate the responses (at least ya'll talk to us...and sometimes listen)...but fixing what ain't broke seems counter-intuitive.
According to the player made defect we got it was broken before Sad


Unfortunately those of us who that tabs were fixed (naturally) did not comment, and so now it is broken for us.

Out of curiousity, if tabs don't get named stuff like e.g. MINING, STARGATES, FIGHTING so the name represents the overview settings that used to stick, what do you name your tabs?

And I always disagree about choices being bad - I prefer the thesis that people are newbies for a little while and experienced a lot longer, so supporting the experienced makes for a much better UI eventually. (Assuming you don't build a cliff.)

Elisa Day
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2008.09.20 21:11:00 - [117]
 

It seems obvious to me that the only reasonable solution to the tab issue is to let the players choose how they want it to be.

The way I understand it, having a "lock" checkbox in the tab configuration screen that would make it so this tab, when clicked, always loads the associated overview preset. (this is the default behavior for all the tabs in the "old" system).

Now, both sides can be happy and you can even mix the two behaviors! I personally find the new behavior senseless and essentially takes away the entire reason for having the tabs in the first place.

Also CCP, what's up with the tiny 5 tabs limit? Is there any problem with letting us have however many we want, or is this yet another example of "CCP arbitrary limits on random things (TM)"?

Cybergoth
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.09.22 12:06:00 - [118]
 

How about a default profile with 5 tabs

Default, Mining, Missions, Explorations, Combat

for those of us who cba with it all Confused

Shinigami
Gallente
Shinra
Posted - 2008.09.22 19:50:00 - [119]
 

How about a 500 page UI manual. The amount of bloat in the UI is getting ridiculous. It's quickly returning to excel in space.

PhantomMajor
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.10.01 23:35:00 - [120]
 

well once again i have to go thru the usual proceedure when it comes to an update patch

uninstall eve, the physically search for any remaining eve folders and delete those before downloading the client, because for some reason your damn update patches don't work for me.

and now after updating the client i hear that less than 24 hours later i have to go through the whole thing all over again.

does anyone at ccp know there A$$ from their elbow?


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