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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:38:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
I also wouldn't mind seeing some well known forum personalities being given some power. They're here all the time, post constructively all the time, isn't it logical that they would guide the forums in a good direction?



I know I'd abuse it. I know you'd abuse it. I'm sure Jade would abuse it. And you get the idea.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:38:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: LaVista Vista

Nobody should ever be accountable for someone else's actions. And no out of game rule should ever apply to an ingame entity. If it happened, the alt infestation would become even worse.


Why do we have corporations and alliances at all?

Wasn't the whole point of the CSM the evolution of eve into a virtual world with nations and power blocs coming together to debate the issues of the environment we share?

Eve is about reputation. Corporation and alliance members ARE held accountable for the actions of their corp and alliance mates. The ticker and employment history and name already determine how many people will respond to you.

We're talking here about solving problems with these forums and the current terrible plague of consequence-free trolling and flaming and nonsense meme posting.

As for your problem with alt-infestation -> as I said in the big post, some forums shouldn't allow alt posting period. And if we got collective responsibility for forum behaviour under particular corp/alliances tickers you'd want to be careful as a corp/alliance leader who you gave those roles too.

Just like how you are careful who you hire in the first place. My alliance is NRDS with very strict rules of engagement. If we hire the wrong people and they go off and shoot neutrals it costs us money to reimburse the victims and embarrasses us as an organization. Why shouldn't terrible forum posting also be a problem for the corp/alliance leadership?



Because you can't even hold someone accountable ingame. If you want to do anything, hold only the person who posts, accountable for what he posts. Anything else is too prone to abuse.

EVE is a sandbox. You can't (despite how much I'd love it) hold someone accountable in the same way we can with the CSM because everybody knows our real name and stuff.

Meta-gaming is a part of EVE and will always be. As such, by making it possible for a person to actually hold someone responsible for the persons actions, it can be abused big time.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:40:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Crumplecorn
I also wouldn't mind seeing some well known forum personalities being given some power. They're here all the time, post constructively all the time, isn't it logical that they would guide the forums in a good direction?



I know I'd abuse it. I know you'd abuse it. I'm sure Jade would abuse it. And you get the idea.
You me and Jade weren't in the suggested list, nor would we be in any suggested list. I didn't say any forum personality.

Though I, in fact, wouldn't abuse it. :p

Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:40:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

We need the ability to completely restrict npc/alt corp posting from the political forums (CAOD/summit/C&P perhaps) and rather than having an eve account automatically able to post there you probably need to ask the Eve community manager for permission and rights (so human factor can bar obvious alt posting corps too) and if your members keep posting rubbish you should lose those rights.


Yeah - I wondered why this is moderated after the fact when all data that's needed to restrict alt posting is already there. Simply not allowing chars without corp ticker on CAOD (and similar RP restricted sections) would be a nice improvement even without extra human moderation for stupid alt corps. Would spare us the many "no alt posting allowed" comments too.

Originally by: Jade Constantine

Thus you'd have parts of the forums where you can post without corp/alliance tickers (general/help/techlab/markets/ships/etc) and parts where you cannot post without accountable corp/alliance affiliation. And posting with a corp / alliance ticker shows you are a trusted and responsible member of your corp/alliance and if you get warnings with those tickers shown the whole corp/alliance can be collectively sanctioned with temp bans.



Interesting ideas.
I already see the censorship threads - but other stuff is restricted by roles too and people will always have GD to post anything they want (just without corp/alliance info if not authorized by corp role).

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:41:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo

How about ingame ISK fines for people who post crap, which can be charged from any character on the account if funds run dry?


Kinda makes sense. How about 5% of the current total funds on the account (or 10m isk minimum) And if you can't pay you are temp-banned from forums until you settle your bill?

Virtual swear-box :)


Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:41:00 - [126]
 

I personally think linking forum activity to 'in game' activity is a quagmire we dont want to be heading towards if we leave it to corps and alliances to police themselves.

What would stop a malcontent in a corp or alliance posting tripe on the forums in order to inflict damage upon that corp or alliance?

What might be a better solution would be to link character api data to the forums - so a player can only post on COA if that char is a Corp CEO for example.

More broad discussion forums like GD are harder to enforce. But again Id go back to my earlier point - players are posting duff because they have very little else to discuss.

I dont think it takes a genius to spot that decreased Dev posts on relevant topics has resulted in a poorer forum in terms of quality. Its the equivalent of the teacher leaving a class room - chaos and anarchy ensues.

C.


Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:42:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Crumplecorn
I also wouldn't mind seeing some well known forum personalities being given some power. They're here all the time, post constructively all the time, isn't it logical that they would guide the forums in a good direction?



I know I'd abuse it. I know you'd abuse it. I'm sure Jade would abuse it. And you get the idea.


I wouldn't, at least I'd honestly try not to. Thing is ofcourse that it's already a cesspit due to CCP having player acounts and therefore ties within the community and thus personal views and preferences. But we had that discussion which hasn't lead anywhwre and forum 'powers' certainly aren't important enough to relive that.

I would have full confidence in the above listed people to do a proper job without feeling the need to question their actions or motives (this excludes Jade ofcourse, but that's a given).

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:43:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
You me and Jade weren't in the suggested list, nor would we be in any suggested list. I didn't say any forum personality.

Though I, in fact, wouldn't abuse it. :p


Okay, I am sure Hardin and Verone would abuse it, and Winterblink would try but instead his alliance would lose another Titan over it.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:43:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Cailais
I dont think it takes a genius to spot that decreased Dev posts on relevant topics has resulted in a poorer forum in terms of quality. Its the equivalent of the teacher leaving a class room - chaos and anarchy ensues.
QFT

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:45:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
What you are saying is that you want someone else (outside CCP) to have control over my account and the options my account has.
Do you actually know what you're asking for?


Yep, just like if you join Star Fraction I and the directors have control over your account. Control over things like :

Can you set standings?
Can you access hanger X?
Can you accept applictions?
Can you access the wallet?
Can you shoot this guy or that guy? (though enforcement being after the effect)

If you want full control over your account you make your own corp or rise to leadership in another one.



Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:46:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Crumplecorn
You me and Jade weren't in the suggested list, nor would we be in any suggested list. I didn't say any forum personality.

Though I, in fact, wouldn't abuse it. :p


Okay, I am sure Hardin and Verone would abuse it, and Winterblink would try but instead his alliance would lose another Titan over it.
What makes you so sure? There are a number of people whose only posts in GD tend to be infrequent and uncommonly level-headed.

And anyway, if the forum is such a 'cesspool' as people suggest, it couldn't get any worse, and there might be some lulz to be had.

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:46:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 15:46:52
The second you pay for my account is where you can get control over my account.

(and thus get banned for it).

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:47:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/08/2008 15:47:40
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Can you set standings?
Can you access hanger X?
Can you accept applictions?
Can you access the wallet?
Can you shoot this guy or that guy? (though enforcement being after the effect)

In fact every one of those is control over the character. Forums are an account feature.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:50:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Cailais
I personally think linking forum activity to 'in game' activity is a quagmire we dont want to be heading towards if we leave it to corps and alliances to police themselves.

What would stop a malcontent in a corp or alliance posting tripe on the forums in order to inflict damage upon that corp or alliance?


The fact you don't give "posting with alliance/corp ticker" role out to every new member. (in much the same way as you don't give out vault access to every new recruit either!) Simply makes the corp/alliance leadership more accountable for assessing the personality and responsible attributes of the membership and offloads some of the burden from ccp moderation.

Quote:
What might be a better solution would be to link character api data to the forums - so a player can only post on COA if that char is a Corp CEO for example.


I prefer the idea of doing it through roles tbh. Corp/Alliance "press officers" role - get to post on CAOD or whatnot.

Quote:
More broad discussion forums like GD are harder to enforce. But again Id go back to my earlier point - players are posting duff because they have very little else to discuss. I dont think it takes a genius to spot that decreased Dev posts on relevant topics has resulted in a poorer forum in terms of quality. Its the equivalent of the teacher leaving a class room - chaos and anarchy ensues.


Thats a fair point. Threads like that 22 page monster with FW people moaning about being wardecced would be helped massively by Oveur posting something like - "hey guys eve is an open pvp game and there are no instances if you get wardecced - fight back!"

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:52:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
What makes you so sure? There are a number of people whose only posts in GD tend to be infrequent and uncommonly level-headed.

And anyway, if the forum is such a 'cesspool' as people suggest, it couldn't get any worse, and there might be some lulz to be had.


I have seen the future.

The only player-based moderations I would agree with is the kind where everyone can vote up/down threads.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:53:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/08/2008 15:47:40
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Can you set standings?
Can you access hanger X?
Can you accept applictions?
Can you access the wallet?
Can you shoot this guy or that guy? (though enforcement being after the effect)

In fact every one of those is control over the character. Forums are an account feature.


Yeah of course it is NOW. Hence I was suggesting a change to that and make forum posting (on certain forums) an in-game feature through integration with corp/alliance roles. Basically certain forum categories would only be accessible if you had corp/alliance ticker roles and those would be granted/removed by appropriate corp/alliance officers. Other forum categories (like general discussion) as now, you wouldn't need these roles to post there but if you had them you'd be respresenting your corp/alliance in posting.

Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:56:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
accountable ingame. If you want to do anything, hold only the person who posts, accountable for what he posts. Anything else is too prone to abuse.



That's not true.

If alliance A members attack alliances B members usually that results in B setting the whole A alliance red and sometimes putting some extra effort into killing some A members as retaliation.

Same with corps. If corp A has members attacking corp B. Corp B might ask for reparation first from the pilots, then from As CEO. Finally B might declare war on A if negotiations didn't resolve the matter.

Corps and alliances are held accountable ingame for their members conduct all the time.


Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:56:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 15:46:52
The second you pay for my account is where you can get control over my account.
(and thus get banned for it).


Well Cygnus, any corp/alliance leader can control whether you get to display the ticker for any character for your account. You certainly do pay for the account but you don't pay for the privilege of joining a particular player entity. If membership of a player entity is pre-requisite for posting on certain forums then the point stands.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:58:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Glengrant
Originally by: LaVista Vista
accountable ingame. If you want to do anything, hold only the person who posts, accountable for what he posts. Anything else is too prone to abuse.



That's not true.

If alliance A members attack alliances B members usually that results in B setting the whole A alliance red and sometimes putting some extra effort into killing some A members as retaliation.

Same with corps. If corp A has members attacking corp B. Corp B might ask for reparation first from the pilots, then from As CEO. Finally B might declare war on A if negotiations didn't resolve the matter.

Corps and alliances are held accountable ingame for their members conduct all the time.





Very true. If SF members suddenly started being dock-monkeys or using lame login traps or scamming people in Jita or posting abuse in local then EVERYONE with the Star Fraction ticker would be impacted by that negative impact on our reputation. Thats eve.

Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:00:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Crumplecorn
Forums are an account feature.


Only partly true at best.

All postings are done with the name of a selected character - not your account name or your real name.

Also some sections are RP restricted. It's simply more efficient to keep un-affiliated alts from posting on CAOD then having to enforce that after the infringement all the time.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:01:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Yeah of course it is NOW. Hence I was suggesting a change to that and make forum posting (on certain forums) an in-game feature through integration with corp/alliance roles. Basically certain forum categories would only be accessible if you had corp/alliance ticker roles and those would be granted/removed by appropriate corp/alliance officers. Other forum categories (like general discussion) as now, you wouldn't need these roles to post there but if you had them you'd be respresenting your corp/alliance in posting.
No-one will want to hand over any form of account control. And it's unlikely CCP would want to either.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:03:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Glengrant
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Forums are an account feature.


Only partly true at best.

All postings are done with the name of a selected character - not your account name or your real name.

Also some sections are RP restricted. It's simply more efficient to keep un-affiliated alts from posting on CAOD then having to enforce that after the infringement all the time.
That is somewhat superficial. You log into the forums with your account. All the character selection does is change the name that pops up. And perhaps something could be done about the freedom to choose so easily there...

Kazuma Saruwatari
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:04:00 - [143]
 

waaaa CCP doesnt care anymore waaaa.

Seriously, looked in the ****ing mirror lately? Havent you had the time or the friking sense to look at where you are, and where you're coming from?

You are a player, amongst 200k+ accounts, on a server that at most has 40k on at any time.

You are part of a community that, for the past 3 years, has done nothing but whine, steal, grief, and kill their fellow player, and has brought it onto the forums, dressed in shiny clean words and "logical" posts that "carry no bias".

You are part of the bigger problem in EVE, not the whistleblower that is meant to cause change. Change yourself before you go telling CCP, let alone other people, how to do their ****ing jobs.

/endrant.

Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:09:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Glengrant on 28/08/2008 16:09:55
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Glengrant
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Forums are an account feature.


Only partly true at best.

All postings are done with the name of a selected character - not your account name or your real name.

Also some sections are RP restricted. It's simply more efficient to keep un-affiliated alts from posting on CAOD then having to enforce that after the infringement all the time.


That is somewhat superficial. You log into the forums with your account. All the character selection does is change the name that pops up. And perhaps something could be done about the freedom to choose so easily there...


Very much not true. You think it doesn't matter if people read that Sir Molle is posting, or a goon or a member of an alliance that you're at war with?

Of course it matters - therefore your character, your corp and alliance info are not superficial.

And you should be free to post under any of your chars - just not where it's not allowed - like posting on CAOD without a corp name showing etc...

And restricting forum posting rights - at least in some sections via corp roles is at least worth considering.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:13:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Glengrant
Very much not true. You think it doesn't matter if people read that Sir Molle is posting, or a goon or a member of an alliance that you're at war with?
Not in any forum worth reading.

These superficialities mean more in the chest-beating forums I guess.

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:14:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
40k on at any time.


BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

5pinDizzy
Amarr
Pillow Fighters Inc
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:18:00 - [147]
 

I don't want CCP to listen to the playerbase, if anything I want them to listen to the playerbase a bit less.

The playerbase has crap ideas most the the time, the playerbase is a fickle short attention spanned bunch of complainers with half baked ideas at the best of times with their own warped ideas and their own bias towards themselves or their friends.

If there's anything I've noticed a massive amount of through reading the forum threads for change over the years, it's the massive amount of self interest thickheadedness people are willing stubbornly stand firm on.

People who trained nano ships never wanted them nerfed AT ALL.

People who died by nano ships always want them nerfed into the floor.

People who live in lowsec want it buffed.

People who live in highsec don't want lowsec resource competition and stick their fingers in their ears shouting "LALALALALA, stop trying to get easy kills, pirates"

etc...

The most I ever want CCP doing is trying to gauge sort of feedback by trying the ascertain some sort of average point of view on the changes, but still taking it all with a pinch of salt, and overriding the player thought's if their better judgement says they should still go through with it, short of an all out forum mob with pitchforks and torches.

They are the professionals after all and do come up with some pretty good ideas now and then.

CCP Atropos

Posted - 2008.08.28 16:27:00 - [148]
 


Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:29:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
oh hi.


It is true.

Says nothing about posting on forums though. Smile

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:33:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
oh hi.
Given the increasing correlation between whines and nerfs recently, I wouldn't link to that on my CCP character. Correlation does not imply causation, I know, but still.

Also, not really related to forums.

:p


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