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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.28 14:50:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 28/08/2008 13:57:26
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 28/08/2008 13:57:14
It's not really true that we're not posting because of marketing pressure, the topic being off our realm of expertise or fear of some good ol' Dev bashing. There are many more reasons, even RL ones.

I for one have been very silent since my keyboard ran out of 'I's and 'S's and I've been too busy to run out an buy a refill.

I, too, reserve the right to re-write some or all of Evelgrivions post for the purpose of pleasing my whim at any time. Twisted Evil


I already said that back on Page 1. :colbert:

Back to the important issue. Since when has not knowing about something ever stopped you from talking about it more? HMMMMMMMMM?

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2008.08.28 14:51:00 - [92]
 

The perception is that CCP is losing touch with it's community.

While this may or may not be true there are a lot more staff these days and a lot less interaction. We have very little idea what CCP is up to at any given time, the dev blogs are nice but what happened to the old "in testing" and "in development" pages, even the "drawing board" hasn't been touched in ages. It wouldn't hurt to feed us a little info on what is being done around the office, what you need testing on SiSi (hunt the new content is not as fun as it sounds) and I'm sure we'd all love to see some concept art and hear your hopes and dreams now and then.

On the forums: They're a poorly moderated mess and a lot of it isn't worth the time required to post there but when people are discussing ideas and/or issues in Game Development or Features and Ideas it would be nice if someone nipped in to mention that they agree that there is an issue here, or that they have related changes planned, or that this idea is impossible because of X, Y, and Z. A simple, "I'm sorry but we see no issue here because..." would be nice in certain places too. These two forums are full of people trying to help you improve the game and if anyone deserves a little time and direction it's them.

The lack of interaction is giving many of us the feeling that CCP has fallen from grace and is heading down the dark path towards being just like all the other MMO developers out there. Those of us who have been around awhile know that you are so much more, but if you don't show it the old guard will lose faith and the new players will never know just how awesome CCP is in comparison to most developers out there.

At least that's my perception of the general perception. Very Happy

Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:03:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion
We are a community of players, not an interactive bankroll.



This.

Good words Evelgrivion.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:04:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion

While these forums were created with the purpose of facilitating interaction between developers and players, the Eve Online forums can be best described as a festering cesspool. The moderation team currently employed by CCP is not up to the task. There are far too many people posting far too much stuff to expect any reasonable measure of control with only two active moderators.


The forums are absolutely terrible, that much is certainly true. I think we have seen a steady decline in quality posting over the five years of the game but a sharp dip over the last couple of years in particular. The problem for Eve is as you say, the forums are the heart of the community really, and when the forums turn into an entirely negative/nasty/abrasive venue for meme-posting and abuse then it shows a dark face and lack of utility.

I'm not convinced that a return to volunteer moderation is the way though - community moderation is a tough gig and you need to be committed and skilled and have your finger on the pulse of the community and thats pretty much a full time job not something you can expect gamers to do in their off hours.

But something does need to be done and done soon to improve the quality and content of these forums because the current climate is certainly damaging the game. My own experience as a CSM delegate has been pretty eye-opening -> met with a huge deluge of flaming and trolling from day one thats now tapered off to being sporadically stalked by alt-posting FW whines desperately begging for non-consensual pvp to be nerfed so they can run their missions in peace.

Sure, I've always been a contentious personality and yep, winning the CSM was always going to put one in the spotlight for forum attention - but still, the pure number and range of troll threads and posts hurled in my direction was a bit crazy. Any normal player would have quit and given up months ago, and I suspects its not going to convince many people they'd like the job when I've finished with it. I can definitely sympathize with the devs here.

I've suggested (over on SHC actually) that whats needed is A) better forum software - since without additional functionality and a developer to code that any significant change is not happening. And B) - better integration of forum posting and in-game roles within corporations.

I honestly think we need to make corporate CEO's and Alliance Executors more responsible for the actions of their members on the Eve forums. I think we should be looking in the future at temp posting bans for entire organizations if enough of their members continually break posting rules and are actively engaged in ruining the Eve forums for ordinary users.

We need the ability to completely restrict npc/alt corp posting from the political forums (CAOD/summit/C&P perhaps) and rather than having an eve account automatically able to post there you probably need to ask the Eve community manager for permission and rights (so human factor can bar obvious alt posting corps too) and if your members keep posting rubbish you should lose those rights.

And for future development I'd suggest that being able to post on Eve forums with your corp and alliance ticker should be a privilege that is granted to you in-game by your ceo/directors/exec with in-game roles not something you have by default. Thus organizations in-game can punish bad posters by removing their posting rights with role removal to protect the overall reputation and standard of the organizations.

Thus you'd have parts of the forums where you can post without corp/alliance tickers (general/help/techlab/markets/ships/etc) and parts where you cannot post without accountable corp/alliance affiliation. And posting with a corp / alliance ticker shows you are a trusted and responsible member of your corp/alliance and if you get warnings with those tickers shown the whole corp/alliance can be collectively sanctioned with temp bans.



Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:04:00 - [95]
 

The more people join, the longer time takes it's bound to head this way I think. But I'd like to have 2006 back too, I miss the devs, but with the growing community I'm not sure it can be done right now.

Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:05:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 28/08/2008 15:05:10
Originally by: Chribba
The more people join, the longer time takes it's bound to head this way I think. But I'd like to have 2006 back too, I miss the devs, but with the growing community I'm not sure it can be done right now.


Bah. (regarding the forums)

It is to be regretted that the rich and powerful too often bend the acts of government to their own selfish purposes. -- Andrew Jackson

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:10:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 15:12:06
There's a difference between proper moderation and "moar control!!!". There's a definate need for more moderation, wether due to having more moderators or more strict rules, or perhaps both.

a "no bull****" approach would work, combined with an increase of moderators, possibly by specific members of the community. But, obviously, not by election. We all know how that ended.

- edit for content -

They can't simply change the forum software because it's an integral part of the portal and game itself, even more due to all kinds of security risks.

Their lack of ability to have made any changes in the past to me prove that they are unable to do so, wether due to code problems and/or expertise. As I stated earlier; all they can do is patchwork, kick the server, do some raindances and hope the fekker keeps working.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:10:00 - [98]
 

For you that think the devs are atleast trying to post in thread but dont have the time, remember that fix amarr post that went to like 60 pages? It was around for about a month and no devs could even post in it?

I dont think eve is dieing, but sadly its beginning to look like its changing to better suit wowits, and this isnt good.

Eve is suppose to be a cold dark place where you can die anywhere, be scammed anywhere, and in order to survive, you must have thick skin and be smart... Not to mention a place where the devs hear you out and propose changes.

I wont leave eve for a good long while, but personally it isnt looking like the future of eve is very good for the hardcore players like myself.

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:10:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 28/08/2008 15:11:03
Originally by: Chribba
The more people join, the longer time takes it's bound to head this way I think. But I'd like to have 2006 back too, I miss the devs, but with the growing community I'm not sure it can be done right now.


Well it doesn't matter much, because they all get swallowed up in Jade's dissertations.

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
possibly by specific members of the community.


For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out.

VicturusTeSaluto
Gallente
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:10:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Glengrant
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
Zulupark is actually reading/posting?

Hey, would you kindly ask the devs responsible for the technical aspects of the game go to over to the windows help forum and read up on all the unresolved issues that are not being addressed even after mass bug reports/petitions? This is game breaking stuff here.



It's game breaking for the few affected and I empathize.
But what you linked looks like problematic driver interaction and is hard to debug/fix and might very well be a problem in the driver that CCP cannot fix.


Eh? This is common sense stuff here. This issue has been around for 6+ months(at least). That is more than enough time for ccp to fix a "hard" problem.

If for some reason they "cannot"(that's BS, btw) fix it, that is also more than enough time to inform their customers that they will never fix it.

Also, there are not "few" affected. That is a very weird and puzzling thing for one to say. It is not as if no one uses ATI cards and no one ever bought a 38xx series card. This is a common piece of hardware.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:10:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Chribba
The more people join, the longer time takes it's bound to head this way I think. But I'd like to have 2006 back too, I miss the devs, but with the growing community I'm not sure it can be done right now.


Course it can Chribba, just need the will, the money and the technical know-how but nothing is impossible. If the human race can turn salt into drinking water and deserts into cornfields and photograph postage stamps from orbit I'm pretty damn sure CCP can buy a working forum suite and hire a guy to code a better integration with in-game roles and bring a little collective responsibility and organizational pride to stem the tide of ignorant nihilism that is scumming up these forums recently.

Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:13:00 - [102]
 

Hold on a moment, aren't we forgetting that it took the devs 12 hours to respond to a player's forum request? I think that's amazing.

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:13:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: An Anarchyyt

For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out.


I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that.

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:15:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: goodby4u on 28/08/2008 15:16:11
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Originally by: An Anarchyyt

For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out.


I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that.
Akita T, chribba and Liang for moderator!

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:17:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Originally by: An Anarchyyt

For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out.


I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that.


Absolutely terrible idea. The answer is not in a return to volunteer moderation. Its in making the leaders of in-game corporations and organizations more accountable for the actions of their members.

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:17:00 - [106]
 

And those as well, no problems whatsoever.

The problem (per usual) is giving power to people who WANT power.

Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:18:00 - [107]
 

You're too much into concepts like "power", "control" and "leader" for my taste Jade, but that probably won't shock you.

Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:22:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Originally by: An Anarchyyt

For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out.


I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that.


Absolutely terrible idea. The answer is not in a return to volunteer moderation. Its in making the leaders of in-game corporations and organizations more accountable for the actions of their members.



How about ingame ISK fines for people who post crap, which can be charged from any character on the account if funds run dry?

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:22:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

Absolutely terrible idea. The answer is not in a return to volunteer moderation. Its in making the leaders of in-game corporations and organizations more accountable for the actions of their members.


Why? It would seem like a horrible idea to me. I much better like the volunteer moderation(Which isn't too good of an idea either).

Nobody should ever be accountable for someone else's actions. And no out of game rule should ever apply to an ingame entity. If it happened, the alt infestation would become even worse.

Terrible idea. If anything, we should enforce that any given person can only post with 1 character on the forums. So we make people accountable for their forum behaviour ingame.

An Anarchyyt
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:23:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
And those as well, no problems whatsoever.

The problem (per usual) is giving power to people who WANT power.


I could quote the Hitchhikers Guide when it is talking about presidents and basically says that no one who wants to be president should ever in fact, be president.

I think generally the CCP Mods are doing fine for the most part. (likely people who were IC members anyway) The problem is really that there are just so many posts made that require modding, and without a 24/7 time commitment, it's just not gonna be perfect.

Raffael Ramirez
Caldari
Vale Tudo.
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:24:00 - [111]
 

hate to burst your bubble , but your alliance is one of the reasons that rules had to be implicated.

I agree that TomB and all the others were a glorious contribution to the game be it chatting in New Caldari local , the forum posts or just seeing them in local or passing you at a gate.

But with power come rules , some were broken so stricter ones had to be enforced.

The community is a shadow of what it once was but if you want to fix that perma ban everyone that doesn´t play within the rules no exeptions.

There has to be a limit to metagaming and forum trolling.

Would mean less customers = won´t happen.



Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:26:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
You're too much into concepts like "power", "control" and "leader" for my taste Jade, but that probably won't shock you.


Well, here's the thing - Eve has evolved into something like a collection of virtual nation-states, there are huge alliances in this game, we've just had an election (the CSM) designed to allow those powers representation to the developers and perhaps its time to realize that with representation comes accountability and collective responsibility.

If a Chinese fighter bomber flips out and drops incendiary bombs on Japan the UN doesn't ban the guys flight license and arrest him personally and call it an end to the matter. It becomes a matter of national interest and collective political responsibility.

The Alliances and large corps in eve are like Nations. If they are behaving like "rogue nations" then why is a collective response inappropriate.

Sure, I'm the defacto "leader" of Jericho and Star Fraction. In that I'm the name on the founding and incorporation readouts. But people stay because of the way we run the alliance. I'd be very happy to have collective responsibility for forum posting because neither I nor my directors will put up with bad behaviour from our membership. We expect intelligent and mature forum posting and if people can't live with that they can find another corp/alliance environment that better suits them. And if it turns out that there is a corp/alliance out there where people post nothing but rubbish all the time why shouldn't Eve be spared that collectively by seeing members of that organization temp banned for the actions of its members?


Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:27:00 - [113]
 




If CCP listened to me then we'd all be in a world of ****.




.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:28:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Originally by: An Anarchyyt

For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out.


I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that.
I also wouldn't mind seeing some well known forum personalities being given some power. They're here all the time, post constructively all the time, isn't it logical that they would guide the forums in a good direction?



Originally by: Jade Constantine
Absolutely terrible idea. The answer is not in a return to volunteer moderation. Its in making the leaders of in-game corporations and organizations more accountable for the actions of their members.

I'm sure some clever person will invent a way of hiding your true identity from others on the forum.
And tying up the forums and the in-game outside CAOD makes no sense.
And the immediate reaction would be that all corps would simply say 'no posting on the forum'.

Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:28:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Glengrant

* reduced price of cloning
The true price of getting pod-killed is loosing your implants.
What's your problem here?



They might as well remove medical clones then (no SP lost when podded). I suspect that the original reason for having this thing is to make it hurt more when an older player gets killed, but as the cost is negligible now, it doesn't work. So the actual effect nowdays is that only people who forget to update or are trapped with their clone in a station without access to medical facilities are hit hard, which is kinda broken.



And where exactly is the change here?
The cost was *always* negligible. And it only ever affected people who got careless and forgot.
The very first thing I do after getting killed is buy a new clone. I take care what station I use.
I once got stranded in a station without medical in hostile territory. I negotiated an escort and free passage before leaving the station.

Scorched Evil
R A G E
NEGATIVE TENDENCIES
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:32:00 - [116]
 

I think people miss the good old days when eve was actually fun. When you could log in with a buddy and go tear some crap up, rather than have to deal with the nerf bats coming through and destroying small gang warfare. I'm pretty sure people miss the days when you could come on to the forums and actually have an intelligent conversation with someone, about a game you both loved and wanted to see succeed.

CCP went way further than required to help the constant whiners. I think part of the problem was they made a major shift in how they dealt with the game, and people way to quickly.

One of the companies we engineer for decided that things had to change. They went through and started firing people like crazy to improve their bottom line. Overhead was through the roof and profits were not what they expected. They continued to try to "shape up processes" by cleaning house, but what they didn’t realize was they had to do this in a stubble way. They too, like CCP does, thought they had everything under control. The workforce essentially resigned under them and a 758 million dollar a year company is now falling into the cracks.

I think what CCP should either do is admit that the older player base in the game is NOT who they want to keep happy, or admit that they've fouled up those players opinions of them and plan to meet us half way. The condition of the eve forums is a result, not a cause of the decay of new eden. Players come here to vent their frustrations because, as we all know, there's nowhere else to do so.

Evelgrivion, if you've just noticed now that the forums are a complete ****-hole.... Big surprise. They've been consistently getting worse for the past 3 years and I can only assume that the cause of this is the game play changes that have been done in this time. A lot of people have been ****ed off for a long time, but they haven’t figured out the only way to really reach CCP is to cancel their accounts in waves.

Sorry guys, I dont really want to see the game hit rock bottom, but we're headed straight for it with the current subscription type. How the hell does anyone achive anything in this game in 7 months and then quit? The study done showing us the statistics of players was pretty eye opening. People are NOT loyal right now.

With new games on the horizon such as Jumpgate Evolution I think it’s very important for CCP to get back in touch with their roots and start making choices that benefit their loyal customers, rather than their bankroll. I bet the people over at codemasters are fully aware of the state of this community. You people should all go have a look at their forums, its positive and constructive with a close connection with the creators. Its what this game was like at the beginning.

I’m not trying to drive anyone over to this new game. But I have to wonder, as I tab over to see a new resignation letter for this company I contract for, how will competition from these new games influence CCP’s choices in EVE. I have faith this game will go on, but I fear the choices that improve it will come a day too late.

Regards.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:34:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/08/2008 15:38:12

Originally by: CCP Prism X
I for one have been very silent since my keyboard ran out of 'I's and 'S's and I've been too busy to run out an buy a refill.



Yeah, fuel propelled keyboards are a *****. Razz

Its nice to see some dev posts in this thread. You guys shouldnt just post when someone makes false accusations though... throw in a post sometimes in a random thread for good measure. I saw Tuxford post in a thread a few days back. Felt like the happy 2006 again.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:34:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista

Nobody should ever be accountable for someone else's actions. And no out of game rule should ever apply to an ingame entity. If it happened, the alt infestation would become even worse.


Why do we have corporations and alliances at all?

Wasn't the whole point of the CSM the evolution of eve into a virtual world with nations and power blocs coming together to debate the issues of the environment we share?

Eve is about reputation. Corporation and alliance members ARE held accountable for the actions of their corp and alliance mates. The ticker and employment history and name already determine how many people will respond to you.

We're talking here about solving problems with these forums and the current terrible plague of consequence-free trolling and flaming and nonsense meme posting.

As for your problem with alt-infestation -> as I said in the big post, some forums shouldn't allow alt posting period. And if we got collective responsibility for forum behaviour under particular corp/alliances tickers you'd want to be careful as a corp/alliance leader who you gave those roles too.

Just like how you are careful who you hire in the first place. My alliance is NRDS with very strict rules of engagement. If we hire the wrong people and they go off and shoot neutrals it costs us money to reimburse the victims and embarrasses us as an organization. Why shouldn't terrible forum posting also be a problem for the corp/alliance leadership?


Cygnus Zhada
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:37:00 - [119]
 

What you are saying is that you want someone else (outside CCP) to have control over my account and the options my account has.

Do you actually know what you're asking for?

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:37:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Just like how you are careful who you hire in the first place. My alliance is NRDS with very strict rules of engagement. If we hire the wrong people and they go off and shoot neutrals it costs us money to reimburse the victims and embarrasses us as an organization. Why shouldn't terrible forum posting also be a problem for the corp/alliance leadership?
Because the forums are OOG. How you have a character in a game held responsible for ****posting in a thread talking about changing the rules of the universe the character inhabits?. Even the mildest application of RP goes nuts which faced with this.
Among other reasons.


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