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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.08.28 00:09:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 28/08/2008 00:09:27
Originally by: Haradgrim
Edited by: Haradgrim on 27/08/2008 17:47:14
Given the lack of respect shown by CCP regarding the grandfathering in of Chribba's veldnaught and other high sec capitals, is it reasonable to assume that the days of T2 BPOs are numbered for the same reason? An advantage held by some but unattainable to others seems to be exactly what they were targetting.



1. you can buy them
2. invention > t2 bpo in efficiency

thus your points are invalid

Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2008.08.28 00:10:00 - [62]
 

Does CCP plan on making a T3 Market in EvE? If so how will these BPO's be distributed out amongst the EvE community?

sneakybustard
Posted - 2008.08.28 00:19:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Rimsa Orion
Does CCP plan on making a T3 Market in EvE? If so how will these BPO's be distributed out amongst the EvE community?



well obviously those will be given to BOB and pets. Razz

Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2008.08.28 00:23:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: sneakybustard
Originally by: Rimsa Orion
Does CCP plan on making a T3 Market in EvE? If so how will these BPO's be distributed out amongst the EvE community?



well obviously those will be given to BOB and pets. Razz


I am sure BoB will get some... Not the point though. They deserve them just like all the other players in EvE.

I am more interested in how they will be distributed. Is it going to be completely random or will certain criteria need to be met to receive them. Maybe the requirements can be posted someplace so that everyone has the opportunity to work towards getting on the list.

IonHammer
Minmatar
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
Merciless.
Posted - 2008.08.28 00:40:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: IonHammer on 28/08/2008 00:41:32
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 27/08/2008 23:31:28
Originally by: Haradgrim
Originally by: Tiuwaz
actually removal of the t2 bpos would be an important improvement of the market, some might not like and some might get screwed over, but all in all it would transform the entire t2 production into a completely free market where everyone atleast in theory stands on equal footing


While I agree that T2 BPOs harm the market in general and it would be beneficial to the overall game to remove them, much like the NPC order re: shuttles.
The removal of T2 BPOs has, apart from screwing over the owners and subsequently causing a market crisis because most IPO backings get trashed and traders go crazy, no effect at all. Nil. None whatsoever. And certainly no "positive influence sphere of fairness" dropping onto the market.

As a player that started during the very last lottery and didn't take part in it but is now an inventor, I do care about T2 BPO holders but not their actual prints. No BPO holder has any power over the market left, but they are some of the last industrialists in eve that know how to calculate. The 5 modules per day that can be produced for 40k ISK less per unit get soaked up in retrading within minutes if not seconds.
The production output of BPOs is simply a drop in the ocean. You won't fail to remove a 0.0 sec alliance because one of their corps can get one HAC per day 5m cheaper than you.
You won't fail to make a profit on the market because of these pitiful volumes.

No BPO producer, who made a serious investment in his print, will forcefully trash the market - but look at the items that are invention only. They have some of the worst profit margins in whole tech-2-land. Minerals I mine are free. Moon-Mins I harvest myself are free. Datacores I collect myself are free. T2 Components and Battleships I produce myself are free. Marauders were introduced and inventors undercut each other by hundreds of millions of ISK within hours. A day after the first ones appeared on the market, a ME-5 Vargur (best chance decryptor) whose production costs was still calculated with the low pre-spike prices, could not be sold for profit anymore. Going with the spiked prices, you threw around half your isk away by producing it.

Practical example, for my last production batch of 690 modules I expect a profit of around 250m. These 690 modules are the result of 120 inventions which I handle in batches of 5, resulting in 24 1h15min inventions. Taking only installation time, pos trips, ressource hauling, preproduction etc we are talking sub level 3 mission isk/h. After a 15m SP commitment to production and invention (no, not mining an refining. production + invention). PvPer with production alts that cannot count to 3 have probably driven more serious industrial players away than any lowsec gatecamp ever could, just by trying to use the market.

The player driven market is the blessing and the curse of Eve. Driving those away that are more blessing than curse will solve nothing. Every halfway decent regional tradehub has a daily salesvolume for the majority of items that exceeds the combined production capability of every t2 bpo for that item in eve. I repeat: every single hub by itself more than all bpos combined.

Adding Prostitutes as NPC sellorders will quite possibly be more harmful to the market than t2 bpos currently are.

[Edit]
Clarified something a bit.


As someone who reads a lot of insipant whining from Inventors about T2 bpo holders this post from El'essar is probably the most insightful I have read in a long time.

If your inventing read this and understand.

Great post mate

Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.28 00:49:00 - [66]
 

I think they should be eventually removed. However I hope ccp fairly compensates the t2 BPO holders when they do (maybe change them to copies with 2 years worth of production on them?)

syphurous
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.08.28 01:07:00 - [67]
 

THE SKY IS FALLING OMG !!!!

Atleast its not another whine about lvl4s, Nanos, or High Sec Captials lol.

Haradgrim
Systematic Mercantilism
Posted - 2008.08.28 01:47:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Haradgrim on 28/08/2008 01:49:38
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 27/08/2008 21:23:10

Originally by: Haradgrim


Basically, you've proven the point you were arguing against; in situations where demand is high t2 BPOs provide a steady stream of income that is virtually unmatched in terms of its size and stability.


They produce a good income. They produce a terrible ROI (Return on Investment). If you handed me a T2 BPO today, I'd sell it as fast as I could run to the sell orders forum. Why? Because with any smarts at all, you can exceed the ROI of a T2 BPO in a number of other ways. You're smarter to invest the money in those other ways.

People spending tends of billions on a T2 BPO are foolish, or lazy, or both, not to put too fine a point on it.

Be that as it may, they can make some money, but they cannot effect how much money YOU make on popular items. Your fellow inventors are the only ones who can do that.

Quote:
For items that have a low demand, it destroys the market due to the low overhead a bpo holder faces....


Nope, it's the low demand that destorys the market.




ROI is irrelevant in this case because its based on the price someone negotiated for the BPO which despite semi-prevelant conventions is actually a shot in the dark. However, the person that aquired the BPO through the lottery and sold it (or alternately has kept and produced from it) had an ROI that was basically infinite, the free market took over from there and thats fine, however those people that won a profitable t2 bpo and still have it enjoy an advantage that other don't.

Personally, I think its fine, I'm not much of an industrialist and I buy a lot of t2 goods so the extra elasticity in t2 prices benefits me on the whole, the point of the thread was to point out the slippery slope CCP had stepped onto by removing all caps from high sec.

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.08.28 02:14:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
I dont think CCP needs to anything in regards to T2 BPOs.

However....

If CCP decides they MUST do something about them, I'd suggest the following:

Every 3 months, AUCTION, one of Each, and ONLY "one" of each T2 BPO. Minimum Bid one billion isk. Use the existing Contract system for the auction.

No one will bid on crappy T2 BPOs, so they will retain what limited value they have.

The SLOW addition (4 per year) of desirable T2 BPOs will reduce the value of the valuable T2 BPOs, but it will be a slow and gradual process.

As a minor added benefit, the isk from the winning bids will be removed from the game (like all isk paid to NPCs), and will thus function as a modest isk sink.


This is the way to do it. Over the long run, it will have the tendency to do the following:

1) Increase the supply of the more popular T2 items, by enabling more production of them at lower BPO production costs. This will drive prices down toward a point where T2 items cost a modest profit over the build cost. (Build cost will likely rise as components increase in price.)

2) Decrease the value of T2 BPOs slowly. The first BPOs will fetch very high prices (similar to BPO auction currently). As competition for production increases and profit margins become more slim (see #1), the price will drop. Existing holders will *not* see their investment vanish overnight, but will have the opportunity to either keep their BPO and keep producing or sell it early in the process to recoup their investment while prices are high.

The one thing I'd change in your suggestion is the start price. Instead of starting at one billion, create an arbitary base price similar to those of T1 BPOs -- say, 100 times the database value of the item produced. This provides a more reasonable floor for the auction price.

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2008.08.28 02:21:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: IonHammer
Edited by: IonHammer on 28/08/2008 00:41:32
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh



As someone who reads a lot of insipant whining from Inventors about T2 bpo holders this post from El'essar is probably the most insightful I have read in a long time.

If your inventing read this and understand.

Great post mate


anyone who thinks that minerals, battleships, or moon material are "free" because he can mine it himself is not really insightful

the argument (was there even an argument?) that invention only t2 items have the worst profitability is vaguely grabbed out of air and he chooses the worst possible example with marauders

marauders are firstly a low volume good, which means the demand will be quickly satisified and prices will drop fast to attract more customers. secondly marauder invention is far more focused on material effeciency than production runs. it's not suprising that nobody wanted to buy me -5 runs >_>.


a 1run me-1 marauder bpc is to me more valueable than 4x 1run me-4 bpcs.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2008.08.28 02:24:00 - [71]
 

Envy vs Greed

Who's gonna win this match?
The looser is already determined: CCP

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2008.08.28 02:31:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Tiuwaz on 28/08/2008 02:31:47
Originally by: Abrazzar
Envy vs Greed

Who's gonna win this match?
The looser is already determined: CCP


I dont think there is any envy at work oO, t2 bpos arent anymore the free moneymaking machines they were pre invention, at current all they do is a bit more profit than invention (per unit produced) and easier production.

I just see no point of them remaining in the game anymore, I'd like to see the whole t2 market based on invention. t2 bpos do distort the market where demand is so low that bpos can satisfy them without invention



This is not about profit as profit in those is already low or some cartell manipulating prices, on contrary we probably would see a rise in prices in those niches. What this is about is better game mechanics.

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2008.08.28 02:40:00 - [73]
 

destroy t2 bpo's!
victory to the proletariat!

Haradgrim
Systematic Mercantilism
Posted - 2008.08.28 02:40:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
Envy vs Greed

Who's gonna win this match?
The looser is already determined: CCP


QFT, sadly ugh

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.08.28 03:18:00 - [75]
 

quote=Schalac]The point is though you wouldn't have to buy the T2 BPO because chances are you already have it from the lottery. Invention will never be cheaper than already having a T2 BPO, never. And with the ability to research that T2 BPO it just widens the gap of profitability. How can someone compete with a -4 BPC with someone that has a ME 100 BPO? I know how. You build for minimal to no profit, or just keep it for personal/corp use.


You'd be surprised, I'd say MOST T2 BPOs are now in the hands of new owners, the lottery winners have mostly cashed out. Invention doesn't NEED to be cheaper though. There are some T2 items with supply > demand, and for those you can make more with invention than you can with the T2 BPO by simply inventing a different item, one that actually has decent demand. Your single slot of production with invention will make more isk/hr.

Also, a -4 BPC and ME 100 BPO, if you've had a look at some items, actually means the ME4 BPC has a 1-2% extra cost to build. It doesn't scale the way you think it would, just because 100 is a bigger number than -4 doesn't mean anything. Most T2 BPO owners only research to ME 1-2 because researching them takes a long time (weeks per ME level), and the difference in the cost of the end product is neligible.

Where the demand is greater than the supply the key to making a profit is volume not margin. If the inventor is making 50% margin and the BPO owner is making 60% the inventor only needs to pump out a very small amount more before they're making ALOT more isk. On the other side, the BPO owner probably needs to hope prices won't drop (they are), so that they can maybe make back their purchase price in the next 5-10 years (some BPOs are going for 10+ years profit).

At the moment, the BPOs themselves serve pretty much a purpose as a collectors item, not as a serious return on investment.

Realistically what you want to be asking for is yet another boost in ME levels for invention, which would be far preferable for all parties concerned than the removal of BPOs.


Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2008.08.28 03:20:00 - [76]
 

Let me tell you folks who are complaining a little about my tech II BPO. It is a siege missile launcher II BPO, and can only produce 120 siege launcher II's every 11 days. This is WITH production efficiency research on it, by the way.

Now, you're thinking to yourself: "120 siege II? Good lawd that's a lotta moneh!"

Riiiiight.

Here's the thing, they sell anywhere between 1 million ISK and 2 million ISK each (usually towards the lower end) and most of that amount is eaten up in overhead (i.e. the cost of components). The sales volume for siege II's is also very low due to market saturation (thank you, inventors :P). This results in a profit of only 20-40 million ISK during a good month, and nothing at all during a bad month. As a result, my BPO's not even in production most of the time, and I have hundreds of siege II's lying around doing nothing.

So yeah, T2 BPOs are clearly overpowered. Please nerf them! Rolling Eyes

Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
Posted - 2008.08.28 03:26:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Every 3 months, AUCTION, one of Each, and ONLY "one" of each T2 BPO. Minimum Bid one billion isk. Use the existing Contract system for the auction.

No one will bid on crappy T2 BPOs, so they will retain what limited value they have.

The SLOW addition (4 per year) of desirable T2 BPOs will reduce the value of the valuable T2 BPOs, but it will be a slow and gradual process.

As a minor added benefit, the isk from the winning bids will be removed from the game (like all isk paid to NPCs), and will thus function as a modest isk sink.



The reason T2 BPOs don't affect the market is because there is a limited number of them, adding more would be counter-productive. Either it would affect invention eventually because the supply would increase beyond demand, or if the supply wasn't increasing beyond the demand it would have no effect on the value of other T2 BPOs anyway.

Adding more T2 BPOs is the worst possible solution for everyone involved. Removing them (while rather silly and unhelpful) would be far preferable.

Quote:
I'll leave you with a question: would the market for t2 ammo be as broken as it is today if there were no T2 BPOs?


More so. The useless ammos would simply have no supply below a certain cost, so you wouldn't even have the reasoning of 'it's cheap' to use it.

There are plenty of items where the T2 BPO makes less than 10m isk per month. Which is downright ridiculous, you can make that in much much less time using the same high skilled char's build slot for invention building. And then you don't have the high capital cost to repay.

Originally by: Rimsa Orion
Does CCP plan on making a T3 Market in EvE? If so how will these BPO's be distributed out amongst the EvE community?



There will be no T3 BPOs, they will be invented just like T2 BPCs (and probably from T1 BPCs), probably the same way but with an additional item etc. The main purpose of T3 last I checked was to just be better at handling heat. Being invention only this will yet further reduce the value of T2 BPOs.

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2008.08.28 03:30:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Tiuwaz on 28/08/2008 03:31:06
Originally by: Wrayeth
Let me tell you folks who are complaining a little about my tech II BPO. It is a siege missile launcher II BPO, and can only produce 120 siege launcher II's every 11 days. This is WITH production efficiency research on it, by the way.

Now, you're thinking to yourself: "120 siege II? Good lawd that's a lotta moneh!"

Riiiiight.

Here's the thing, they sell anywhere between 1 million ISK and 2 million ISK each (usually towards the lower end) and most of that amount is eaten up in overhead (i.e. the cost of components). The sales volume for siege II's is also very low due to market saturation (thank you, inventors :P). This results in a profit of only 20-40 million ISK during a good month, and nothing at all during a bad month. As a result, my BPO's not even in production most of the time, and I have hundreds of siege II's lying around doing nothing.

So yeah, T2 BPOs are clearly overpowered. Please nerf them! Rolling Eyes



you could have atleast bothered to read the thread, you whine about imaginary ppl whining that your t2 bpo is such a moneymaker, while no in this thread said so.

Artassaut
Minmatar
Shadow Striders
Property Management Solutions
Posted - 2008.08.28 03:34:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Artassaut on 28/08/2008 03:56:35
Everyone wants T2 BPO's nerfed in some way, but why not introduce some grueling random chance based thing where your invention gets a T2 BPO instead of a BPC?

Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2008.08.28 03:35:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Tiuwaz

you could have atleast bothered to read the thread, you whine about imaginary ppl whining that your t2 bpo is such a moneymaker, while no in this thread said so.


LOL, figures. I read a T2 BPO whine thread in General Discussion when I was at work, then came home and replied to the first thread I saw thinking it was the one I read. EmbarassedLaughing

Schalac
Caldari
Apocalypse Reign
Posted - 2008.08.28 03:36:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Lord Fitz
Originally by: Schalac
The point is though you wouldn't have to buy the T2 BPO because chances are you already have it from the lottery. Invention will never be cheaper than already having a T2 BPO, never. And with the ability to research that T2 BPO it just widens the gap of profitability. How can someone compete with a -4 BPC with someone that has a ME 100 BPO? I know how. You build for minimal to no profit, or just keep it for personal/corp use.


You'd be surprised, I'd say MOST T2 BPOs are now in the hands of new owners, the lottery winners have mostly cashed out. Invention doesn't NEED to be cheaper though. There are some T2 items with supply > demand, and for those you can make more with invention than you can with the T2 BPO by simply inventing a different item, one that actually has decent demand. Your single slot of production with invention will make more isk/hr.

Also, a -4 BPC and ME 100 BPO, if you've had a look at some items, actually means the ME4 BPC has a 1-2% extra cost to build. It doesn't scale the way you think it would, just because 100 is a bigger number than -4 doesn't mean anything. Most T2 BPO owners only research to ME 1-2 because researching them takes a long time (weeks per ME level), and the difference in the cost of the end product is neligible.

Where the demand is greater than the supply the key to making a profit is volume not margin. If the inventor is making 50% margin and the BPO owner is making 60% the inventor only needs to pump out a very small amount more before they're making ALOT more isk. On the other side, the BPO owner probably needs to hope prices won't drop (they are), so that they can maybe make back their purchase price in the next 5-10 years (some BPOs are going for 10+ years profit).

At the moment, the BPOs themselves serve pretty much a purpose as a collectors item, not as a serious return on investment.

Realistically what you want to be asking for is yet another boost in ME levels for invention, which would be far preferable for all parties concerned than the removal of BPOs.


Well the way I was to understand it. When invention was first introduced the ME and PE of BPOs or any copies of it where supposed to have an effect on the outcome of the ME and PE of the T2 invented BPC. This idea was scrapped though and we have the system in place now. I would have no problem with the current game mechanics of BPOs being in the game if the invention feature did follow the ME and PE of the prints used to invent the T2 variant. Or a structured degradation of ME and PE of invented T2 BPCs. High quality invention would have 100% ME and PE of print used and less quality inventions would degrade at a certain percentile where a truly horrible invention could still produce a -4 ME T2 BPC.

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2008.08.28 03:44:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Wrayeth
Originally by: Tiuwaz

you could have atleast bothered to read the thread, you whine about imaginary ppl whining that your t2 bpo is such a moneymaker, while no in this thread said so.


LOL, figures. I read a T2 BPO whine thread in General Discussion when I was at work, then came home and replied to the first thread I saw thinking it was the one I read. EmbarassedLaughing



happens to the best Very Happy

Grim Mercy
Heretic Logistics
Heretic Nation
Posted - 2008.08.28 03:45:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Grim Mercy on 28/08/2008 03:47:09
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Admiral Apex
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Treelox
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Most invention is much more profitable than invention, which is fairly profitable.



typo?

Yes, I'm getting sleepy Laughing



clearly i have a great misconception about t2 bpos. can you explain briefly(if possible) how t2 bpo's are less profitable than invention(sometimes)?


Well. The problem about T2 bpo's is that you can't actually use more than 1 production slots at the time. Invention allows you to use as many slots as you have. Right now, the T2 BPO's I have seen for sale has less than 3% monthly return on investment

Some of the BPO's I have seen makes between 1 and 10 mill profit per day. But with the production profit you can get from invention, per slot per day, is more like 3-7 millions. So it's much more profitable in that sense. But it DOES take more work. But you don't have to do a big investment in buying a T2 bpo, which is often 2-50 billions.


I know this is from the first page, but there are a couple of points I'd like to highlight-

First of all, you're talking volume and profit margin. Yes, you can have more slots going, at a lower margin, and make more total money. This is true, but it does not refute the fact that the margin on the T2 BPO over invention is higher. If you added a T2 BPO in with all of your invention endeavors, the one slot the BPO is using will make more isk per slot than invention. If you replaced all of your invention slots with T2 BPOs, you would be making much more isk from a total-T2 production line. Fact.

Also, you said "the T2 BPO's I have seen for sale has less than 3% monthly return on investment" and "a big investment in buying a T2 bpo, which is often 2-50 billions."

Why are T2 BPOs so ungodly expensive, I ask? Is it because they can make you a bunch of money? By the way, in case you were wondering, a 3% monthly return on a 50 billion investment is 1.5 billion.

Monthly.


Tuleingel
Posted - 2008.08.28 05:28:00 - [84]
 

T2 BPO's would not be a problem if inventors could get positive ME prints. BPO owners afterall already can save invention cost so they would still have advantage, just not as big.

As long as inventors can't get positive ME numbers T2 BPO's should be removed/changed. Just an personal opinion.

Garna Devka
Posted - 2008.08.28 06:15:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Tiuwaz
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 28/08/2008 02:31:47
Originally by: Abrazzar
Envy vs Greed

Who's gonna win this match?
The looser is already determined: CCP


I dont think there is any envy at work...

I just see no point of them remaining in the game anymore


I was just like you. I did not see the point of t2 BPO remaining in the game until i bought one. Now i see the point very clearly. And i want them to remain in game.

The other guy is right. It's envy vs greed. The envy crowd is much bigger though...

Pippan
Gallente
Jupiter Force
Posted - 2008.08.28 06:19:00 - [86]
 

BoB has too many T2 BPO's for ccp to do this. :P

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.28 08:59:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Reithan
Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you still make BPCs from a T2 BPO?

So, if you're worried about volume, copy off a 20 copies of your ME100 PE100 T2 BPO and get it churning out goods in every one of your copy slots.

Which still leaves you in this comparison:

T2 BPO:
Copy
Produce
BIG Profit

T2 Invented BPC
Copy T1 BPO
Invent, lose a bunch of copies
Produce @ -4ME
Small Profit

T2 BPO wins every time.



YOU ARE WRONG. Happy?

Copy time for T2 BPO is higher than production time, so copying them give a lower production than building directly from the original BPo.

Second point: look the damned time and skill requirement for researching T2 BPO. I doubt there is 1 ME 100 PE 100 BPO in game.

El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
Posted - 2008.08.28 11:22:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Tiuwaz
anyone who thinks that minerals, battleships, or moon material are "free" because he can mine it himself is not really insightful
True. Hasn't stopped anyone form not being insightful in 5 years. Or inventors from adapting that scheme for decryptors they explored themselves.

Quote:
the argument (was there even an argument?) that invention only t2 items have the worst profitability is vaguely grabbed out of air and he chooses the worst possible example with marauders
No, that was a statement. And the marauders were an example of how aggressive the undercutting by inventors is. For that, they are actually one of the best examples.

Quote:
marauders are firstly a low volume good, which means the demand will be quickly satisified and prices will drop fast to attract more customers. secondly marauder invention is far more focused on material effeciency than production runs. it's not suprising that nobody wanted to buy me -5 runs >_>.
We're still talking right after trinity introduction, right? Because, at that time, there was no equilibrium with this or that decryptor at current market prices is good for Marauder invention. You are right about now, but not nearly a year ago. Hours after the introduction of new toys, there is neither "low demand" nor an established price which allows one to decide if volume or efficiency (runs vs me) is more important.
Nowadays leftover ME-5 Marauders runs require patience and good timing, yes.

Schani Kratnorr
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.08.28 11:53:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: Schani Kratnorr on 28/08/2008 11:56:00
Without a wider range of decryptors, inventors will never produce near the cost of original owners.
For items in great demand, the number of BPO producers will be relatively low, thus allowing inventors to make isk.

At the moment, items like ships can be produced and delivered below cost for inventors. Further reducing available products in this category. Local market fluctuations allow some inventors to produce at profit, but the vast majority are still waiting for demand to outpace the BPO suppliers.

In a nutshell. Once more people train for, and start using T2, demand rises beyond T2 BPO supply, and allows invention to become a factor.
At the moment, T2 ships are generally in oversupply. This keeps prices below invention costs.

If we do not want to wait for demand, the large difference in ME between inventor BPCs and original BPOs can be changed. A decryptor that allowed for positive ME and/or more runs would drive costs down, and open up T2 ship production for a low of mid-level inventors.

Not changing anything, will force us to wait until T2 depand outstrips theoretical maximum production from the fixed number fo BPOs already in-game.

ME levels are only this important because T2 component prices are relatively high. For demanding items like ships, a difference of just ONE level can easily make it impossible to profit. This typically voids two or three of the four available decryptors for each race.

So the question is - wanna wait?

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.08.28 11:57:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
Without a wider range of decryptors, inventors will never produce near the cost of original owners.
For items in great demand, the number of BPO producers will be relatively low, thus allowing inventors to make isk.

At the moment, items like ships can be produced and delivered below cost for inventors. Further reducing available products in this category. Local market fluctuations allow some inventors to produce at profit, but the vast majority are still waiting for demand to outpace the BPO suppliers.

In a nutshell. Once more people train for, and start using T2, demand rises beyond T2 BPO supply, and allows invention to become a factor.
At the moment, T2 ships are generally in oversupply. This keeps prices below invention costs.

If we do not want to wait for demand, the large difference in ME between inventor BPCs and original BPOs can be changed. A decryptor that allowed for positive ME and/or more runs would drive costs down, and open up T2 ship production for a low of mid-level inventors.

Not changing anything, will force us to wait until T2 depand outstrips theoretical maximum production from the fixed number fo BPOs already in-game.

So the question is - wanna wait?


Yes and no, certain t2 ships the demand outstrips the supply.

On most widely used modules demand far far outstripe supply. Remember the 15mil each invul IIs and HML IIs?


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