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Raniss
Posted - 2008.08.27 14:11:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Nexus Kinnon
Originally by: Raniss
You piwate tears taste so sweet...keep on crying plz.


No one here is crying. We are suggesting solutions and ways of working around the problem.

Maybe you should try it before taking to the whinemobile, asking CCP to change things for you because you were dropped on your head as a child and thus lack critical thinking skills.


Keep on trying...keep on crying. They still taste sweet.

Nekopyat
Posted - 2008.08.27 14:40:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Havohej

Personally, I think it's a lame 'tactic', but that's not the point. An even lamer 'tactic' is creating a bunch of alt corps and flying without roles so you can just hop-hop-hop-hop-hop your way out of ever dying without being suicide ganked at all...


This bit baffles me. So they made one type of hopping an exploit, but not the other type??

I can see getting rid of the whole 'hop in, shoot, hop out to avoid counterattack' sequence.. but that could just have easily been handled by JUST stopping the 'hop out' part, which would have delt with the corp hopping at the same time.

*is baffled*

Vaden Khale
Amarr
Damnation Angels
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:48:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: Havohej

Personally, I think it's a lame 'tactic', but that's not the point. An even lamer 'tactic' is creating a bunch of alt corps and flying without roles so you can just hop-hop-hop-hop-hop your way out of ever dying without being suicide ganked at all...


This bit baffles me. So they made one type of hopping an exploit, but not the other type??

I can see getting rid of the whole 'hop in, shoot, hop out to avoid counterattack' sequence.. but that could just have easily been handled by JUST stopping the 'hop out' part, which would have delt with the corp hopping at the same time.

*is baffled*


Exactly. It's such a huge decision obviously catering to care bears. They complain that they get no chance to respond to people joining corps and shooting at them. Do the war deccers have any chance of firing a shot in anger when they corp hop? I started over a year ago, and back then it seemed if you got war decced, you gritted your teeth and fought back, dissolved, or paid the war deccers off, or whatever was applicable to the situation. Now, you can just corp hop to your hearts content. CCP seems to be removing more and more of the 'risk' portion of the risk and reward balance in high sec. And as far as my 'piwate tears,' thank you for helping my point. As I previously stated, I don't even use this mechanic. I never leave low sec. But for those who reside in high sec trying to make a living through war decs, I feel empathy. My reason for concern is that if they continue down this path, what's going to be next? Sentry guns insta-popping battleships? Concord intervention in low sec dependent on the character's sec status? Honestly CCP, what are you going to do next to cater to the carebears? Instead of this blatant exploit notification, why not change the corp joining/leaving mechanic? Regardless of roles, once you join, you can't leave for 24 hours. People will still be able to join and leave corps practically at will if they don't have roles, and it removes the ability for characters to join, pop a target, then leave corp immediately afterward. If that doesn't suit your taste, come up with something else. Just not this. The hypocrisy of this decision makes me question where this game is going.

Emmi
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:56:00 - [34]
 

Why....?

Why does everyone sound so angry?? Crying or Very sad I started playing because I heard the people who played this game were nice and happy...

Why do you all dislike "carebears"? We are just new players who need help.

Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:59:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Emmi
Why do you all dislike "carebears"? We are just new players who need help.


Wrong. The term "carebear" has nothing to do with how new you are to the game. It means players who choose to inhabit highsec space, rather than go into lowsec, where they can be shot with little consequence.

Have I just been trolled?

soldieroffortune 258
Gallente
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.08.27 18:06:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Originally by: Emmi
Why do you all dislike "carebears"? We are just new players who need help.


Wrong. The term "carebear" has nothing to do with how new you are to the game. It means players who choose to inhabit highsec space, rather than go into lowsec, where they can be shot with little consequence.

Have I just been trolled?




says the high sec ninja salvagerVery Happy


back on topic though, i do agree with the "pirates" on this one though, it should be much more difficult to corp hop, but you also have to see, that it says that they cant leave a corp and get concord on their attackers when they insta leave a corporation

KeLLaX
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.08.27 18:19:00 - [37]
 

it's an exploit because:

1. I dunno if it's fixed but if a wt leaves his/her corp, he/she still appears as war target. Therefore, people may get concorded if they don't have WT's corp/alliance column ticked in overview.

2. People may get confused and still shoot the neutral, thinking it's a wt.

This is not something new though, I dunno why CCP is bringing this to ppl's attention now, I was warned by EVE SYSTEM for using this exploit more than 6 months ago too, its nothing new and it's been out there for a while.

Alberico DeSandre
Posted - 2008.08.27 21:48:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Alberico DeSandre on 27/08/2008 21:58:31
<-- new player. I can definetly say I learn faster than most, but even as a 2 month newb I can still pretty clearly see that some of you can't see outside YOUR version of what you WANT eve to be. Lets just say that you'd make some ****ty game developers.

They are trying to keep the safe zone for noobs SAFE. When you bend or bypass the rules they fix it. It's that simple. If I were to form a corp with my 3 other newb friends it would NOT in ANY WAY be a great or educational game experience to get wardecced by some bored veteran players and then lose our entire fortunes because they were bored and wanted to gank some expensive ships flown by noobs. If i wasn't active on reading these forums I wouldn't even know how vulnerable we'd be as our own corp.

Don't understand? TLDR? Stop griefing in the safe zones and instead suggest ways to bring people into lowsec. Stop freaking out, the sky is not falling.

Deitre Cibrus
Turntable Dubbers
Posted - 2008.08.27 21:50:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Nexus Kinnon
Originally by: Raniss
You piwate tears taste so sweet...keep on crying plz.


No one here is crying. We are suggesting solutions and ways of working around the problem.

Maybe you should try it before taking to the whinemobile, asking CCP to change things for you because you were dropped on your head as a child and thus lack critical thinking skills.


lolowned

Emmi
Posted - 2008.08.27 21:52:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Alberico DeSandre
<-- new player. I can definetly say I learn faster than most, but even as a 2 month newb I can still pretty clearly see that some of you can't see outside YOUR version of what you WANT eve to be. Lets just say that you'd make some ****ty game developers.

They are trying to keep the safe zone for noobs SAFE. When you bend or bypass the rules they fix it. It's that simple. If I were to form a corp with my 3 other newb friends it would NOT in ANY WAY be a great or educational game experience to get wardecced by some bored veteran players and then lose our entire fortunes because they were bored and wanted to gank some expensive ships flown by noobs. If i wasn't active on reading these forums I wouldn't even know how vulnerable we'd be as our own corp.

Don't understand? TLDR? Stop griefing in the safe zones and instead suggest ways to bring people into lowsec.



This Wink

Vaden Khale
Amarr
Damnation Angels
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.08.27 22:15:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Alberico DeSandre
Edited by: Alberico DeSandre on 27/08/2008 21:58:31
<-- new player. I can definetly say I learn faster than most, but even as a 2 month newb I can still pretty clearly see that some of you can't see outside YOUR version of what you WANT eve to be. Lets just say that you'd make some ****ty game developers.

They are trying to keep the safe zone for noobs SAFE. When you bend or bypass the rules they fix it. It's that simple. If I were to form a corp with my 3 other newb friends it would NOT in ANY WAY be a great or educational game experience to get wardecced by some bored veteran players and then lose our entire fortunes because they were bored and wanted to gank some expensive ships flown by noobs. If i wasn't active on reading these forums I wouldn't even know how vulnerable we'd be as our own corp.

Don't understand? TLDR? Stop griefing in the safe zones and instead suggest ways to bring people into lowsec. Stop freaking out, the sky is not falling.


Nowhere in Eve is supposed to be safe. By clicking the undock button you agree to get shot. And besides, all the suggested ways to get people into low sec would get the carebears whining even more.

Gwendalyne
Caldari
SolarStone Syndicate
Posted - 2008.08.27 22:39:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Gwendalyne on 27/08/2008 22:39:59
Well that's easy to figure out... Everyone literally starts the game a carebear, and work toward PvP from there (or, don't).

They're catering, not to the carebears, but to newbies with trial accounts, AKA prospecive subscribers. Like for example... me!

I can deal with the risk of PvP play, I can take a loss in PvP, and I can certainly (though not now) start killing in kind.

I don't, and the reason why would invite flames and require another thread to handle, so I'll keep it to myself from here.

So yeah, basically, they want more people like me, who would rather CHOOSE to or NOT to be in PvP situations, rather than being thrown in a crocodile pit, naked.

EDIT: Most awesome way to say it right, here, quoted from above post:
that some of you can't see outside YOUR version of what you WANT eve to be.

Nexus Kinnon
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.08.27 22:53:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Alberico DeSandre
Stop griefing


I can tell you're new

Lynal
Gallente
A Few Good Men.
Posted - 2008.08.27 23:17:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Havohej
Edited by: Havohej on 27/08/2008 14:09:02
Character limit, and stuff.

Anyways, yeah, it's certainly using hyperbole to illustrate the point. No, they'll never have avatars with huge purple breasts, thongs and pointed ears flying mah spaceships, but they're considering the need for safety of the poor, defenseless sheeple before considering the need for the cold, harsh EVE of the not-so-poor, not-so-defenseless sheeple.

Which isn't so bad, mind you... what's aggravating is that they put the carebear first nearly every time.



unfortunatly you do have to understand that ccp is a business... and (now that i do look at your corp name) since you have played wow... you must be able to see the potential profit that catering to carebears provides. wow currently has nearly 3/4 of the ENTIRE online gaming population.

now im not saying that eve should become wow, and i honestly dont believe it ever will. as far as im concerned, so long as these limitations stay in high sec, its fine. high sec is supposed to be highly patrolled and legally enforced space... there should be greater penalties for cirumventing the rules there... low and null sec, not so much.

also on that note... even with all these changes ccp is putting in, there are ways around them. the penalties may be harsher than before... but that does not prevent you from actually doing it.

the day when ccp changes the game's mechanics to physically prevent you from even attempting to do something (as is the case in wow), rather than simply penalizing you for doing something... then ill agree that eve has gotten carebearish.

Lynal
Gallente
A Few Good Men.
Posted - 2008.08.27 23:20:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Tchell Dahhn
Originally by: Emmi
Why do you all dislike "carebears"? We are just new players who need help.


Wrong. The term "carebear" has nothing to do with how new you are to the game. It means players who choose to inhabit highsec space, rather than go into lowsec, where they can be shot with little consequence.

Have I just been trolled?



you mean to tell me that suicide gankers who never left the amar system were carebears?

no... a carebear isnt someone who never leaves high sec... its someone who does absolutly no pvp and in fact goes out of their way to avoid pvp in any form.

which is fine... there needs to be that sort of player in eve... if there wasnt then nobody would have any fancy ships or modules... the pirates and gankers sure as hell wouldnt be spending the necessary time to supply the entire eve population with ships and fittings if the carebears didnt/couldnt.

Xasz
The Python Cartel.
Posted - 2008.08.27 23:25:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Havohej
When they say they won't (not can't, but WON'T) do anything about people corphopping to avoid wars, but then they declare this to be an exploit, it doesn't really add up.



This is EXACTLY the issue at hand. In essence, it is the same thing executed on different ends of the spectrum. It's just wrong to declare one thing an exploit, but not have it go both ways. Bleh. As the title says...

Lynal
Gallente
A Few Good Men.
Posted - 2008.08.27 23:26:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Lynal on 27/08/2008 23:48:16
Originally by: Vaden Khale
Originally by: Alberico DeSandre
Edited by: Alberico DeSandre on 27/08/2008 21:58:31
<-- new player. I can definetly say I learn faster than most, but even as a 2 month newb I can still pretty clearly see that some of you can't see outside YOUR version of what you WANT eve to be. Lets just say that you'd make some ****ty game developers.

They are trying to keep the safe zone for noobs SAFE. When you bend or bypass the rules they fix it. It's that simple. If I were to form a corp with my 3 other newb friends it would NOT in ANY WAY be a great or educational game experience to get wardecced by some bored veteran players and then lose our entire fortunes because they were bored and wanted to gank some expensive ships flown by noobs. If i wasn't active on reading these forums I wouldn't even know how vulnerable we'd be as our own corp.

Don't understand? TLDR? Stop griefing in the safe zones and instead suggest ways to bring people into lowsec. Stop freaking out, the sky is not falling.


Nowhere in Eve is supposed to be safe. By clicking the undock button you agree to get shot. And besides, all the suggested ways to get people into low sec would get the carebears whining even more.


i remember hearing something awhile back that i think even the carebears would agree to.

any of you who used to play swg should remember the crafting system there. basically, materials had different properties depending on where you got them from. this in turn would lead to different finished products... products made with the higher quality (read rare and more valuable) materials were of a higher quality... and were worth more.

if ccp were to implement this sort of system... where materials gathered in low and null sec were of higher quality than high sec, and subsequently let you make better and more valuable end products... then you'd see more carebears in low and null sec. not all of them to be sure, but a good percent... basically you need to make the risk vs reward balanced enough to draw them out of high sec.

unfortunatly im pretty sure that eve's database is hardcoded, meaning that all items and ships are fixed in the database without room for slight differences depending on materials used :/

back on topic... think of eve like the real world.

high sec is basically a first world nation. there's nothing preventing me from pulling out a gun and shooting some random person in the head in the middle of new york city... but the penalty and likelihood of being caught is very high.

low sec is more like a russian province in the balkans. again, i can shoot some random person, and there is a chance of being caught and punished, but its less.

and finally there's null sec... which is basically the sierra leone of eve. you can do whatever you want and the likelihood of being caught and punished by some law enforcement agency is virtually non-existant.

Lola Rust
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.08.29 03:32:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Lynal

if ccp were to implement this sort of system... where materials gathered in low and null sec were of higher quality than high sec, and subsequently let you make better and more valuable end products... then you'd see more carebears in low and null sec.


You mean like, for example, mining Zydrine and Megacyte in lowsec/0.0? Or other expensive highend minerals that are found only in lowsec/0.0? That make the pricetag on certain products so high? OR THE ****ING MOON MINERALS REQUIRED FOR T2 PRODUCTION?

You're sharp as a spoon, and half as useful. GB2SWG.

Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
Posted - 2008.08.29 04:34:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Clair Bear on 29/08/2008 04:34:21
Originally by: Lola Rust

You mean like, for example, mining Zydrine and Megacyte in lowsec/0.0? Or other expensive highend minerals that are found only in lowsec/0.0?



Actually, all minerals up to and including morph are obtainable from missioning.

You have a point re: t2 products though.

Newbear
Posted - 2008.08.29 06:07:00 - [50]
 

I aprove of this nerf! There is too much violence in the galaxy already. I hear age of conan needs players, go play there if you need to pvp so bad.

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2008.08.29 07:03:00 - [51]
 

So guys, when do you think war decs become exploits? Confused

Lynal
Gallente
A Few Good Men.
Posted - 2008.08.29 12:06:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Lynal on 29/08/2008 12:08:50
Originally by: Lola Rust
Originally by: Lynal

if ccp were to implement this sort of system... where materials gathered in low and null sec were of higher quality than high sec, and subsequently let you make better and more valuable end products... then you'd see more carebears in low and null sec.


You mean like, for example, mining Zydrine and Megacyte in lowsec/0.0? Or other expensive highend minerals that are found only in lowsec/0.0? That make the pricetag on certain products so high? OR THE ****ING MOON MINERALS REQUIRED FOR T2 PRODUCTION?

You're sharp as a spoon, and half as useful. GB2SWG.


no... i mean even more in depth than that. its risk vs reward remember? the simple fact is that there is not enough reward to entice those carebears who spend 23 hours a day 7 days a week farming veldspar to go to lowsec. even with zydrine and whatnot... namely because the few people who do go to get those minerals (there must be some because its not very difficult to get t2 stuff nowadays is it?).

but make it even more profitable for them... you cant tempt them into low sec by offering them pvp, when thats not what they want. they want isk... make it worth it for more of them to leave high sec. you do that by making more valuable stuff available ONLY in low sec (that means get rid of minerals obtainable through missions for example).

it also means, as an example, making stuff like say veldspar have different properties depending on where you get it. say they mine veld in 1.0 space... anything made from that veld has no special bonuses (or perhaps even a slight penalty... less armor on ships made from it perhaps)... while the stuff mined in low sec is the opposite (bonuses over the high sec end products).

basically make t2 stuff produced from low sec minerals better than t2 stuff produced from minerals gathered elsewhere.

you would probably still see your solo miners sticking to the safe stuff in high sec, but with the potential for greater profit (due to being able to produce superior quality products ONLY from what you get in low sec... or simply produce products that, while also available from high sec, are better in low sec) you'd probably find certain carebear corps migrating... which means more targets in general.

bottom line... stfu or propose something else. instead of insulting me without providing anything useful, come up with an idea that might actually work, instead of just whining that people who dont want to pvp arent go into places where they will be forced to pvp... as i said before, "come to low sec and pvp" is not an enticement to get people who dont want to pvp to go there.

Nexus Kinnon
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.08.29 12:09:00 - [53]
 

The best proposal for improving the mining in lowsec was variants of stuff like scordite and veldspar which gave +30% - +40% yield over bog standard veld.

Pteranodon
Caldari
Rekall Incorporated
Posted - 2008.08.29 12:47:00 - [54]
 

I see none consenting PVP as ****-a hostile attack. Let us face facts. You do not have to be a pirate to work out that if a attacks b & b don't like it he has no choice other than to fight & run or loose his precious CNR.

War however is different-lots of people did not want to go to war but they did it out of a sense of duty & as you all know it goes on for real even now.

I think the choice of how you play needs to be much more clearly defined. I think CCP would be better at putting in a few 100 new systems where carebears can run missions or mine without fear of attack but the missions need to be much harder. If you leave the carebear systems then it is open season. I think a simple way to keep the carebear systems safe is that you can't commit a hostile act toward a fellow player in a pre defined carebear system.

I think in time Eve will be heading this way. I was talking to a friend of mine-a Policeman & his view-which could be echoed here is that he has no problem with criminals doing what they do provided that they don't get get innocent people involved in there activities. If 2 pirates want to slug it out that is fine but leave innocent joe out of it.

I have no views in either bias. If I go to low sec & get blown up-which happens a lot-I don't whine at my attacker I just shrug my shoulders & move on.

Perhaps we need a utopia to keep both camps happy.

War in the carbear systems no- as it moves back to a big grey area. Corps at war cant enter the carebear systems & anybody in a carebear system whose corp is at war is not allowed to fight even if flagged as hostile.

It is only an idea so flame for all you like but remember we could be getting something like this in nthe future.



Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.29 12:55:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Pteranodon
I see none consenting PVP as ****-a hostile attack. Let us face facts. You do not have to be a pirate to work out that if a attacks b & b don't like it he has no choice other than to fight & run or loose his precious CNR.

War however is different-lots of people did not want to go to war but they did it out of a sense of duty & as you all know it goes on for real even now.

I think the choice of how you play needs to be much more clearly defined. I think CCP would be better at putting in a few 100 new systems where carebears can run missions or mine without fear of attack but the missions need to be much harder. If you leave the carebear systems then it is open season. I think a simple way to keep the carebear systems safe is that you can't commit a hostile act toward a fellow player in a pre defined carebear system.

I think in time Eve will be heading this way. I was talking to a friend of mine-a Policeman & his view-which could be echoed here is that he has no problem with criminals doing what they do provided that they don't get get innocent people involved in there activities. If 2 pirates want to slug it out that is fine but leave innocent joe out of it.

I have no views in either bias. If I go to low sec & get blown up-which happens a lot-I don't whine at my attacker I just shrug my shoulders & move on.

Perhaps we need a utopia to keep both camps happy.

War in the carbear systems no- as it moves back to a big grey area. Corps at war cant enter the carebear systems & anybody in a carebear system whose corp is at war is not allowed to fight even if flagged as hostile.

It is only an idea so flame for all you like but remember we could be getting something like this in nthe future.





Wha....?

Non consentual PvP is Eve. Eve is non consentual PvP. That established fact has only started to be challenged by WoW migrants over the past year or so. For the sake of all of us Eve-players, please go back from whence you came. You're not wanted here.

Pteranodon
Caldari
Rekall Incorporated
Posted - 2008.08.29 13:05:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Pteranodon on 29/08/2008 13:08:55
Interesting. A hostile response. Not unexpected really. If you read my post properly & don't jump on your soapbox I said I'm not biased either way. I see both sides of the arguement & whether you like it or not provision is coming-even if it is slow to cateer for people who don't want to fight.

You want to fight & that is fine but don't force people who don't want to fight. If you want to slug it out with your fellows that is excellent but If I dont want to slug it out then dont make me. I pay my subscription to CCP & my opinion does count as does yours & you would do well to remember that and be more courteous to balanced argument.

Hammerfall Ceo
Caldari
Hammerfall Industries
Posted - 2008.08.29 13:09:00 - [57]
 

This thread is fail. This game is PVPONLINE!

Pteranodon
Caldari
Rekall Incorporated
Posted - 2008.08.29 13:12:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Pteranodon on 29/08/2008 13:13:12
Originally by: Hammerfall Ceo
This thread is fail. This game is PVPONLINE!


Well. It used to be-but times change & we will need to consider adapting.

Consider mission running, Industry, salvaging-it's not just PVP fighting

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.29 13:14:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Pteranodon
Edited by: Pteranodon on 29/08/2008 13:08:55
Interesting. A hostile response. Not unexpected really. If you read my post properly & don't jump on your soapbox I said I'm not biased either way. I see both sides of the arguement & whether you like it or not provision is coming-even if it is slow to cateer for people who don't want to fight.


You can say that you aren't biased how many times you want. The rest of your posts prove otherwise. For instance, the bolded part here. People who don't want to fight should bloody well be forced to fight in Eve. That's what non consentual means.

Originally by: Pteranodon

You want to fight & that is fine but don't force people who don't want to fight.


There you go again! N-o-n c-o-n-s-e-n-t-u-a-l. Unbiased my ass.

Originally by: Pteranodon
[
If you want to slug it out with your fellows that is excellent but If I dont want to slug it out then dont make me.


Yes, I'm going to make you. You singed up for a game that has non consentual PvP. I'm one of the people who read through the description of the game before signing up, so I knew that.

Originally by: Pteranodon
[
I pay my subscription to CCP & my opinion does count as does yours & you would do well to remember that and be more courteous to balanced argument.



No, your 14.95 a month does NOT give you the right to play basketball on a football court. You will play the non consentual PvP game you signed up for, or you will not play at all. Pretty simple, really. Seems there's many stupid people signing up to Eve nowadays. You wouldn't happen to have singed up from Steam, would you? Ex-WoW player?

Pteranodon
Caldari
Rekall Incorporated
Posted - 2008.08.29 13:21:00 - [60]
 

I respect your opinions. It is a pity you dont respect mine. I am saying that there is a place in Eve to cater for every camp. If I want to mine & build my own private empire in peace I should be allowed to.

Keep you war mongering in unsafe regions amongst your like mined fellows & all is fine. I'm not saying you cant fight but just do it on your own turf with people who want to fight.

No-I've never subscribed to Steam or WOW so that comment is somwhat lame. I did read CCP's small print to some extent but missed the bit that said I could be shafted by somebody with 4 years experience versus my 9 months in the game.


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