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blankseplocked Simple Anti-Blob Mechanic
 
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Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.26 14:05:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Ruze on 26/08/2008 14:41:34
Real simple. Let exploding ships cause area-of-effect damage when they explode, exponentially increasing in magnitude and amount of damage with the size of the ship, with battleships damaging everything in a 10-15km, cruisers 8-10km, frigates 5km-8km.

Please note: This HAS been suggested before, nor is it in any way new or trademarked by yours truly. Why did I make a new post? So you can make a new, innane and stupid reply, of course! Cool

And because I'm lazy and don't care to necro a six month old thread.

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.08.26 14:17:00 - [2]
 

Well, I like it but it's not so much anti-blob as anti-bunched-together... the tactic in use would change from lots of ships all bunched together to lots of ships with a bit of spacing Smile. I still like it for the sheer amusement value of potentially destroying your killer when you die getting him down to 2% structure.

Unfortunately, I can see this going down like a lead balloon technically, due to (and this is granted hearsay by me but it's been said a lot) the allegation that CCP don't like lots of AOE effects. There was much talk of AOE and lag and how the hits on many ships at once is a great way to lag the servers.

It would certainly promote longer-range combat. Blaster ships would be particularly inconvenienced by such a notion, which they might not appreciate.

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.08.26 14:22:00 - [3]
 

Has been suggested a few gazillion times already. Think of something new. Thanks.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.26 14:39:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Batolemaeus
Has been suggested a few gazillion times already. Think of something new. Thanks.


Awesome reply! Thoughtful, well intentioned, and provocative!

If you reply like this in every one of those posts, no wonder they never see the light of day again Wink

I love these guys. They make my day interesting Twisted Evil

Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:03:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 26/08/2008 17:20:38
To combat blobbing you need to inhibit large numbers of ships from forming up on the same grid. Unless the blast radius you're talking about would be 200km, this won't address that.

The answer to blobs is to make attacking multiple objectives in different systems simultaneously either required, or highly advantageous, in sov. wars. As long as maximum firepower on the same grid at the same time is the winning tactic, it will be used.

The structural problem with sov wars as they exist today is that they are based on massive HP, and the ability to overcome massive HP. In that environment, more is always better.

Addressing the issue is going to require a fairly extensive reworking of how sov wars work that isn't based on overcoming massive HP.

Uzume Ame
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:48:00 - [6]
 

While would be a nice feature, take in mind it would go against close combat (blasters!), so should be carefully ballanced.

I don't think it would help much against blobs though.

Wannabehero
Wayward Ventures
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:36:00 - [7]
 

I'm afraid I might have to agree this idea has some fairly difficult issues. It does however stand to reason that if a large ship full of ordinance powered by some massive reactor were to explode, it would pose a danger to those within a few kilometers of it.

In truth, the way to fix blobbing is to somehow limit fights so that eventually more HP and firepower isn't necessary or helpful or possible.

Or, you know, buff bombs.

Caldari 5
Amarr
The Element Syndicate
Blazing Angels Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:49:00 - [8]
 

Whilst I believe that Pure Damage AoE will have no effect on Blob dynamics, I do believe that a Shock-wave effect might. Picture it this way, all ships in a radius from the exploding ship loose Lock and MWDs Drop out for a couple of seconds, this is the nature of the EMP and spatial disturbance that occurs during a reactor going off like a bomb. Everyone in that radius is forced to relock and re-engage their MWDs. Now this may not seem like it is much in the way of a problem, but you consider if the enemy is outside that range, they are still firing whilst you are re-acquiring your targets, stray shots/missiles on interceptors will probably kill them whilst their MWD is disabled due to them not being able to outrun the missile explosion.

Wannabehero
Wayward Ventures
Posted - 2008.08.26 18:25:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Wannabehero on 26/08/2008 18:44:08
Blobbing is defined as the massive agglomeration of ships in one area (grid) for the purpose of combating an opposing force.

Blobbing has evolved over the years to include larger and larger numbers of players on both sides of a conflict.

Blobs only truly possess one counter in practicality, though several others in theory. The only practical method to deal with a massive force of enemy ships is to assemble your own force of ships to match or exceed that of your opponent. Other methods of dubious utility include area of effect systems, such as doomsday devices and bombs, and high mobility strike gangs to perform hit-and-run attacks on the main blob force, ideally inflicting greater damage than receiving. Such attrition groups have classically consisted of either high-DPS battleship snipers or extremely high-speed sub-battleship forces (nanos being the most recent development). In actual gameplay only one tactic has shown consistent success against an enemy blob force, and that is another blob.

Blobs form for a reason. Blobs form around strategic points, the most common of which are Player Owned Structures (POSs) and system gates. In both cases, the size of the forces used are not typically those required to fulfill the objective (such as destroying a POS) but rather are the size believe necessary to deal with the enemy force (or rather, the most players you can muster, the more, the better).

Blobs can appear in a very brief period of time. Cyno field generators and jump-bridges allow for the rapid assemble of very large forces. In a few minutes time a conflict can grow from six ships to sixty.

Blobs are extremely detrimental to gameplay. They generate massive latency and lag, and this combined with the primary -> insta-pop nature of Blob combat penalizes/negates many tactical elements of EVE combat.

Players will always blob together when possible, always. It is simply the best and easiest way to do things (insuring victory).

The only way to get players to not blob is to make it so this is not the best and easiest way to do things.

Anyone who devotes some time to brainstorming methods to make blobs not the best way to do things deserves commendation. While their ideas may not be the best, those same ideas may catalyze the design of a better idea in the deep halls of CCP's dev meeting rooms.

snaike
Blue Republic
Posted - 2008.08.26 23:27:00 - [10]
 

Being a blasterboat pilot, I have to say I would be pretty damn ****ed off if i were to finish off an opponent, only to have his exploding ship shatter my momentary victory.

Blasterboats are difficult to fly as it is, they are probably going to become a bit more difficult if the speed changes take effect, such a thing as explosive damage would all but finish them off.


Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2008.08.27 00:32:00 - [11]
 

Heh. That sounds like a Titan buff to me. Very Happy

Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.27 00:46:00 - [12]
 

Blobs form for 2 main reasons. The first is the presence of chokepoints, such as gates. Strategic targets, such as POSes contribute to this as well.

The second, and probably greatest reason for blobs is that Eve is too small. Gates, WTZ, jump bridges and cynos make it too easy to quickly move large numbers of ships to where they are desired.

Blobs would be fewer and the game would be much more strategic if intra-system travel was slowed down immensely. Not that this is ever likely to happen.

Acidictadpole
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2008.08.27 02:35:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Sirius Problem
Blobs form for 2 main reasons. The first is the presence of chokepoints, such as gates. Strategic targets, such as POSes contribute to this as well.

The second, and probably greatest reason for blobs is that Eve is too small. Gates, WTZ, jump bridges and cynos make it too easy to quickly move large numbers of ships to where they are desired.

Blobs would be fewer and the game would be much more strategic if intra-system travel was slowed down immensely. Not that this is ever likely to happen.


Well, if you think about it in comparison to RL military, blobs happen every day. And there are obviously ways to deal with them. However none of the ways have successfully been ported to eve.. Such as mines, trip-wire bombs, timed explosives, bridge destruction etc.

If you could successfully disable a gate for 30 seconds to prevent incoming travel with a small force that would work pretty well. It would not be allowed to happen more than once every 10 minutes or something so it couldn't be spammed.

Just that kind of thing.

Kiki Arnolds
Caldari
Allied Caprican Heavy Industries
Posted - 2008.08.27 02:37:00 - [14]
 

Step 1 - locate 100+ battleship blob
Step 2 - Warp in 20 smartbombing battleships
Step 3 - Chain reaction explodes entire blob instantly
Step 4 - Laugh as the node catches on fire
Step 5 - While the enemy is stuck on an imploded node, hit them somewhere else with impunity!

Also, who takes the sec hit for a chain reaction in Jita?

Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.27 04:17:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Acidictadpole
Well, if you think about it in comparison to RL military, blobs happen every day. And there are obviously ways to deal with them. However none of the ways have successfully been ported to eve.. Such as mines, trip-wire bombs, timed explosives, bridge destruction etc.

And all of the things you mention reduce the mobility of the enemy, which is exactly my point. It is too easy to be highly mobile in Eve.

Also, mines were at one time in Eve, but removed due to how they were spammed, resulting in a lot of lag.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.27 10:39:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Sirius Problem
Originally by: Acidictadpole
Well, if you think about it in comparison to RL military, blobs happen every day. And there are obviously ways to deal with them. However none of the ways have successfully been ported to eve.. Such as mines, trip-wire bombs, timed explosives, bridge destruction etc.

And all of the things you mention reduce the mobility of the enemy, which is exactly my point. It is too easy to be highly mobile in Eve.

Also, mines were at one time in Eve, but removed due to how they were spammed, resulting in a lot of lag.


Another major point behind mine removal was afk killing. CCP is against a lot of afk activities, and mines allowed someone to go out, seed a gate, then go afk for a few hours and rinse, repeat.

Slobodanka
Posted - 2008.08.27 11:39:00 - [17]
 

As already pointed there are several ways to get rid of blobs: one is already in the game and it's AOE weapon called doomsday device. It is used to counter sub-BS and (to some extent) BS blobs. It has almost no effect on super-BS blobs and at the same time it is the part of the next big problem: titan blobbing.

To kill a titan you need massive amount of firepower and EW combined. To kill blob of titans... I don't think anyone has ever achieved this one, so I'll leave it to the military brains to come up with an idea on how to counter titan blob.
Anyhow, to kill _a_ titan you need massive firepower, usually in the form of cap blobs, dreads and carriers. There is no counter in the game against this form of combat except for equal blob of cap ships. And we all know how wonderful effect that has on general game play and game performance.

As it stands the only "tactics" to defeat (not actually defeat, more like "not make them capture the flag") is to fill the system with as many characters as possible, have them all do things that demand lots of hardware work from servers eventually crashing the node and forcing stalemate. Collateral damage of this actions is even more lag, latency, downgrade in game experience and all other lovely things game developers enjoy so much.

With current game mechanics it is not likely that we will see less caps and supercaps in the game; we have situation where good moon can pay for several cap ships each month. One moon. In same situation a good region can pay for several motherships or titans. With convenience of jump bridges, jump portals, jump freighters, sov 4 benefits, etc. the building of capital and supercapital ships has never been easyer. It still requires lots of man hours to be put in, but it is very simple building a titan today compared to early days.

As it stands blobs are here to stay, and all CCPs attempts to get rid of them or to reduce them have failed. A change to sov system, POS system and intra- and extra-system travel mechanics are needed to present players with a tactic that benefits smaller gangs working together across several systems/constelations/regions to achieve their goal, whether it be conquering a space, securing high value commodity, improving logistic capabilities or disrupting enemy's logistics and destroying their assets.

And FFS: Change DD behavior so that it does not damage ships inside POS shield, password or no password, POS shields aren't called shields for nothing.

Manxome NOXX
Amarr
The Imperial Assassins
Posted - 2008.08.27 12:18:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Manxome NOXX on 27/08/2008 12:23:54
An idea to prevent or limit fleet formations to blobbing levels - Bring in fleet formations. I have mentioned this before but there is a 50/50 split for it. Many against it cannot see any point or visualise where it would be useful. Here is one such use.

If fleets, when formed, spent points dependant on the ship types and were positioned into a formation with a set number of spaces available, then the fleet numbers could be capped meaning that a FC would need to consider the roles and types of ships within the fleet formation.

Much like C&C where points are spent depending on the size & type of units available on the field, EVE could incorporate a similar approach. So a fleet with a maximum of 40 BS could be engaged by a fleet of 60 BC. This would make up the maximum fleet numbers in that system (or area). So a fleet would no longer be built up with as many ships as possible, but a tactical assortment of the correct ships maximising the fleets combat effectiveness. Much like the same way the tournaments are played out.

If the max is reached and no more ships are allowed in that system(or area), then another fleet could be engaged someplace else with a different FC in command with the same points system, but a different composition dependant on the objective. Any pilots not able to join fleets at the time could be placed in a queue until the allied fleet had lost sufficient numbers to warrent admission into that fleet.

Am I making sense?

NOXx

Jimbob Jumbo
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.08.28 11:43:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Manxome NOXX
Edited by: Manxome NOXX on 27/08/2008 12:23:54
An idea to prevent or limit fleet formations to blobbing levels - Bring in fleet formations. I have mentioned this before but there is a 50/50 split for it. Many against it cannot see any point or visualise where it would be useful. Here is one such use.

If fleets, when formed, spent points dependant on the ship types and were positioned into a formation with a set number of spaces available, then the fleet numbers could be capped meaning that a FC would need to consider the roles and types of ships within the fleet formation.

Much like C&C where points are spent depending on the size & type of units available on the field, EVE could incorporate a similar approach. So a fleet with a maximum of 40 BS could be engaged by a fleet of 60 BC. This would make up the maximum fleet numbers in that system (or area). So a fleet would no longer be built up with as many ships as possible, but a tactical assortment of the correct ships maximising the fleets combat effectiveness. Much like the same way the tournaments are played out.

If the max is reached and no more ships are allowed in that system(or area), then another fleet could be engaged someplace else with a different FC in command with the same points system, but a different composition dependant on the objective. Any pilots not able to join fleets at the time could be placed in a queue until the allied fleet had lost sufficient numbers to warrent admission into that fleet.

Am I making sense?

NOXx




MMMMMMMMMMMM............. NO ?


"Jimbob Jumbo has asked to engage in combat with you. Do you want to engage in combat with Jimbob Jumbo, or continue mining veldspar." [Engage] [Mine] [Implode]



 

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