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Benco97
Gallente
Terraprobe Dynamics
Posted - 2008.08.25 23:45:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Titus Vulso
Oh and synaptic which comes installed with Ubuntu, is like a gui frontend for apt which will let you search and give you descriptions for all of the applications listed in your repos.


Aha! I knew there had to be something lurking around that did that sort of job. Thankyou for your help, I will continue to use it and learn.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.26 00:10:00 - [32]
 

The beryl-effects become old and disabled very quickly. And then ubuntu is just like windows except with poor application, driver, and game support.

Titus Vulso
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.08.26 00:19:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Titus Vulso on 26/08/2008 00:19:44
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
The beryl-effects become old and disabled very quickly. And then ubuntu is just like windows except with poor application, driver, and game support.


I can't honestly comprehend why you would make this statement. It's called compiz fusion now after the two forked projects merged and whilst there are a lot of "fluff" plugins, some are very helpful especially the accessibility ones. It's worth remembering also that each effect is a plugin and can be activated/deactivated to your taste. As for application support, their are Linux alternatives to every windows applications that I used to use in windows. These applications are just as good if not better and free. Linux supports more hardware than windows ever will (we're not talking microsoft sidewinder joysticks here). As for games, I'll give you that.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.26 14:58:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Titus Vulso
Edited by: Titus Vulso on 26/08/2008 00:19:44
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
The beryl-effects become old and disabled very quickly. And then ubuntu is just like windows except with poor application, driver, and game support.


I can't honestly comprehend why you would make this statement. It's called compiz fusion now after the two forked projects merged and whilst there are a lot of "fluff" plugins, some are very helpful especially the accessibility ones.



I do -not- agree. The only reason they exist as I see it is to make the desktop look more flashy, the practical application of them is limited at best. I mean a rotating box with multiple desktops look really cool, but it's not really useful when you get down to it.

Quote:

It's worth remembering also that each effect is a plugin and can be activated/deactivated to your taste.



This is true, I can deactivate all the flashy effects, but then I get down to an OS that cannot compete with Windows in terms of driver-support, application-support and game-support.

Quote:

As for application support, their are Linux alternatives to every windows applications



That range from far worse to, "perhaps acceptable".

Quote:

These applications are just as good if not better and free.



No, there is no replacement for Adobe Premiere, Adobe Soundbooth, Adobe FLASH, or any other CS3-application. And no, your oncoming suggestions (eg. GIMP) are not it. I'm sorry, the professional industrial standard cannot be matched by the independent developers that make Linux good and free. I've been using Linux since 1993 (pretty much when the first kernel was used) and I agree it has grown a lot since then, but as a desktop OS, particularly in a professional environment it is severely lacking. And WINE in it's current state is more or less a joke.

Quote:

Linux supports more hardware than windows ever will (we're not talking microsoft sidewinder joysticks here). As for games, I'll give you that.


Except for the hardware that people actually use. I'm glad ATI finally gave in and from the 8.6-driver and forward have Linux support, but the "how to install it" is still far too much of a headache for the average user.

Titus Vulso
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.08.26 15:28:00 - [35]
 

Our experiences obviously differ vastly, I can't presume to tell you what your experiences with Linux operating systems have been like so I won't. As for Wine being a joke, if it is a joke how am I able to run an application such as Eve, with all of the specific windows features it employs, so well?

Titus Vulso
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.08.26 15:31:00 - [36]
 

The point I'm trying to make is that it's well and good for you to make claims like Wine is a joke, but evidence provided in this very thread contradicts that, like the pic I posted earlier. So it casts doubt on your other claims.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:29:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/08/2008 17:37:48

Originally by: CCP Tuxford

Careful with monitors (and TVs for that matter). You can't really go smaller again. I've got a 24" monitor at work but have been mainly working from home on my 19" monitor. For the first month of two I felt really... claustrophobic is probably best describes it. Although I'm not claustrophobic so how would I know Razz


That's what she said. Razz

Nice to see you again Tuxford. You are right of course. I know Im going to suffer at work because there I only have a 19" screen. After spending the weekend in front of my 24", Im going to hate Mondays even more I bet. Surprised

What I could do is bring in my personal monitor to work some day. My desk is right next to my boss desk, so showing her the 24" (no phun intended, still talking about monitors) might persuade her to see the advantages. Smile

Originally by: CCP Atropos
Wow. My Ubuntu experience was hideous. I had a Ubuntu box for testing of the Linux EVE client, and I attempted to get Beryl to work on it; it made my head implode. And after it didn't work and I removed it, my nVidia drivers had disappeared and would no longer give me a decent resolution.

I've no idea what made my experience of Ubuntu so different, but it honestly didn't inspire me to try again. Windows might be a piece of ****, but I know where I stand when I want to install stuff and just get it working.


You are not alone. My first Linux experience was crash and burn as well. It was back in the days of Red Hat when nothing worked out of the box. You really had to be stubborn and have tons of time to get things the way you wanted. And google like a maniac of course.

My nvidia drivers disappeared from a Ubuntu version before as well. I think it was because when the auto update downloaded new headers for the kernel, the drivers didnt work anymore and needed to be reinstalled. It has since been fixed though.

Give it another chance every year or so. Sooner or later you will find that it works pretty good. But yes, Windows is better at "just running". Ubuntu is still for the ones with lots of time.

Originally by: Benco97
Edited by: Benco97 on 25/08/2008 23:39:25
I used Wubi to install Hardy Heron onto this computer alongside my Vista install, the setup all went very smoothly and I was impressed compared to what I've seen Ubuntu be like before. I did have one error on installation completion where there were several IRQ collisions however this was a hardware issue caused by my motherboard just being an ass and was easily resolved.



Yes, it gets better and better. Looking at how far it has come from just a few years back, its pretty impressive. Its still not as simple as windows, and it probably never will be, but its free and you dont have to put up with the Microsoft crap. Besides, Linux/Unix knowledge is great in the IT industry as well.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:53:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Titus Vulso
Our experiences obviously differ vastly, I can't presume to tell you what your experiences with Linux operating systems have been like so I won't. As for Wine being a joke, if it is a joke how am I able to run an application such as Eve, with all of the specific windows features it employs, so well?


The screenshot does not show performance, it does not show that it works well for everyone. There are clear cases of people having problems running EVE on Linux, such as distorted text, etc. (just read the feedback on WINE's own website for example). Also, EVE is one of very few games that officially claims to support Linux, so it's obviously a bit better than most other games.

Originally by: Titus Vulso
The point I'm trying to make is that it's well and good for you to make claims like Wine is a joke, but evidence provided in this very thread contradicts that, like the pic I posted earlier. So it casts doubt on your other claims.


Your "Evidence" is circumstantial at best. Perhaps because you cling so strongly to it, it may be your claims that are to be doubted? I haven't tried EVE on Linux myself yet - but from what I've read, it still does not perform as well as in Windows, and until such time I have little (no) reason to use Linux to play EVE. I do have a server running OpenBSD and an Ubuntu Hardy installation dual-boot with my Windows though, so should it change in the future - I definitely will change it. But right now my reasons for not changing desktop OS to Linux is the same reason I don't change to VISTA. If it doesn't actually perform better on the setup and application & games I use, there is no reason to switch.

Titus Vulso
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.08.26 18:14:00 - [39]
 

Well whether you believe me or not is up to you. Running three premium clients is a bit of a stretch though it's still very playable despite a noticeable drop in performance. Running two clients I have no problems with whatsoever, which includes dual accounting during missions/fleets (I have two friends in game who have issues running two clients under windows). Other games I run regularly with good performance under wine include Guild Wars, Supreme Commander, Nexus and the source based Valve games. You seem hell bent on proving that Linux isn't a capable desktop platform, I remind you of your earlier post "The beryl-effects become old and disabled very quickly. And then ubuntu is just like windows except with poor application, driver, and game support.". I'm not trying to say that Linux is the best option for everyone, in fact I said to annoing it might not be best for him if his preference is to be able to play games. What I do want to point out is how inaccurate you are in making statements like "Wine is a joke".

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.26 18:27:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 26/08/2008 18:30:30

Originally by: Titus Vulso
You seem hell bent on proving that Linux isn't a capable desktop platform


I don't need to prove anything. It isn't as capable as Windows for my usage. I use Adobe Premiere, Photoshop, sound-applications and FLASH a lot, all while playing EVE, and other games that come out to the PC that I enjoy. I do have Ubuntu there for keeping with the times in case WINE would finally get CS3 to work (Adobe Photoshop CS2 works with a lot of quirks, but that's just not acceptable to me).

Also, there's obviously the argument that it's all the hardware/software-developers fault for not making stuff for Linux. It's a good argument but it doesn't change the fact that there is extremely limited support for modern hardware for Linux. I know everyone hates Creative, but I have a lot of use for my X-Fi, and the support in Linux (not to mention VISTA) is horrible. I used OSS to begin with, which sounded as good as Windows, but could only use one channel at the time (which is a general fault with OSS). Then I tried ALSA, which bugged the crap out of me. And that's not mentioning the current ATI-support for Linux (especially if you do want to use it with the nifty beryl-effects), playing movies is either very slow, or has a white flicker in MPlayer (and derivates). And that's not just my experience, it's how it is today.

Linux is a very stable OS if all you need to do is network-related (browsing, msn, chatting, etc.) I would even go as far as better than Windows, because of how rock solid it is. But for multimedia (especially when you start doing the dirty stuff) it just is not up to par.


Quote:
What I do want to point out is how inaccurate you are in making statements like "Wine is a joke".


Wine is a joke. It's nice to see that they've come farther now, that there's at least around 10 applications that are Platinum-rated (that people actually use), but since it's meant to eliminate the need for a Windows-installation. It is a joke. It barely runs anything, and definitely not modern software that I use on a day-to-day basis.


Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.08.26 18:33:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Then I tried ALSA, which bugged the crap out of me.



Ubuntu 8.10 has switched sound server from ALSA to Pulse Audio. Might work better for you. 8.10 is still in alpha though.

Titus Vulso
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.08.26 18:38:00 - [42]
 

I'll reiterate that my own experience is very different to yours. I don't use Photoshop, have no reason to. It seems to come up in almost every discussion about the usability of Linux. I never realised there where so many graphic designers out there Rolling Eyes. I'll agree to disagree with you in regards to Wine.

Ryysa
Mission Fail
Posted - 2008.08.26 20:06:00 - [43]
 

Why not use both?

I use Ubuntu 8.04 as my main system at work and I have Virtualbox with a licensed copy of Windows XP, having Office 2007 (as backup), photoshop, PL/SQL developer and a few other things I need for work.

That way, if something happens to windows, I can just instantly load a fresh VM image, like nothing happened...

You guys are too "This or That", why not use both at the same time?

Titus Vulso
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.08.26 20:38:00 - [44]
 

The discussion wandered somewhat. My original intention in this thread was to reassure anyone who was thinking of giving ubuntu or another distro a go, that it's not difficult and can produce good results in relation to running eve(this is the eve forums after all). I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should be using, apologies if it came across that way.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.27 05:40:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Then I tried ALSA, which bugged the crap out of me.



Ubuntu 8.10 has switched sound server from ALSA to Pulse Audio. Might work better for you. 8.10 is still in alpha though.



Err, Pulse depends on either ALSA or OSS, which means it has the same flaws.

Fish Mittens
Minmatar
0utbreak
Posted - 2008.08.27 12:01:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
Wow. My Ubuntu experience was hideous. I had a Ubuntu box for testing of the Linux EVE client, and I attempted to get Beryl to work on it; it made my head implode. And after it didn't work and I removed it, my nVidia drivers had disappeared and would no longer give me a decent resolution.

I've no idea what made my experience of Ubuntu so different, but it honestly didn't inspire me to try again. Windows might be a piece of ****, but I know where I stand when I want to install stuff and just get it working.


If you are having problems with nvidia driver config on ubuntu try Envy

It will automatically detect, build and configure your GFX drivers and give you a nice UI config panel for your nvidia GFX settings.

Easy to use even for an eve Dev :D

-Fish

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:17:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Then I tried ALSA, which bugged the crap out of me.



Ubuntu 8.10 has switched sound server from ALSA to Pulse Audio. Might work better for you. 8.10 is still in alpha though.



Err, Pulse depends on either ALSA or OSS, which means it has the same flaws.


Didnt know that. But surely it must be improved in some way since they are starting to use it?

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.28 08:22:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Didnt know that. But surely it must be improved in some way since they are starting to use it?



The feature Pulse brings is audio-effects. Which I suppose if you look at it in a way adds "support" to your hardware, but in general it doesn't actually make for better compatibility, no more than a new window manager adds support for graphics hardware. Now, right now ALSA doesn't support X-Fi. Which is unfortunate, since it's one of the most common soundcards shipped with modern computers. They (the developers) do have the specs for the card and are in progress of developing a better driver for X-Fi (there is one prototype out right now that, in my view is horrible), but in general; and this unfortunately stands for Linux as a whole: Hardware manufacturers, software developers in the commercial industry, and game-developers do not give Linux the attention of the Windows-platform and this is why it isn't the first choice for many (myself included) as an everyday desktop OS.

Now, I dislike DRM, and money-lobbying to impeach more and more on software patents, and all that is not GPL. But the fact is that as long as practice means better products in my hands (eg. Adobe Premiere and Adobe After Effects), then ideology is flawed. I reckon this is the conundrum that need to be solved by the makers of Linux, and I think something's gotta give. Particularly if Microsoft develops another VISTA-like Windows, I think Linux truly can threaten Microsoft on the mainstream desktop OS-market. But then again, if Microsoft manages to turn the tide and make a rock-solid OS, that us the consumers want: then that's good as well.

I'm sorry if my argument have sounded like a means to shoot down those who love Linux. I really like it myself, I use it every day, but for me it has it's limitations. I have to admit I was a lot more of a Linux-fan ten years ago, because then I simply cared more for tweaking and fiddling with Slackware, Debian, OpenBSD and all the other distributions I learned over the years. But now I simply do not have the time or want to spend the effort to compile kernels to get new hardware working, or learn some application that a 20-year old dude wrote to make people stop spending money on expensive movie-editing software.

I sympathize with those who do dedicate their full time to Linux, and maybe you can help drive the market toward a more GPL, Open Source-driven software future that everybody can enjoy. The cynic in me tells me that will never happen, but if it does; I'll happily say I was wrong, Linux can do. And be done with my sour argument.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.08.28 15:44:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/08/2008 15:45:27
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
this unfortunately stands for Linux as a whole: Hardware manufacturers, software developers in the commercial industry, and game-developers do not give Linux the attention of the Windows-platform and this is why it isn't the first choice for many (myself included) as an everyday desktop OS.



Its hard to argue with this and you are of course correct. The only thing that will make the software industry develop for Linux in the same way as for Windows is that the user percentage grows enough to make it profitable.

In a way, its a shame that there are so much Windows piracy. If it wasnt for that, tons and tons of users would use Linux for economical reasons.

MacOS is really in a similar situation, and while its not being free, its hard to come by better applications than on the Windows platform.

Tacyon
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:11:00 - [50]
 

Watched the op's vid.

That is by far the most pointless thing for an operation system.
WITH ALL RESPECT, I don't know much about computers, but fancy, pointless, gimmicks won't trick me into getting linux. What'd I do with leaves moving on the background of the screen, or with motionblur? Neutral

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:19:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/08/2008 16:22:43

Originally by: Tacyon
Watched the op's vid.

That is by far the most pointless thing for an operation system.
WITH ALL RESPECT, I don't know much about computers, but fancy, pointless, gimmicks won't trick me into getting linux. What'd I do with leaves moving on the background of the screen, or with motionblur? Neutral


Well, most of the hobbyist users likes to use a operating system that looks nice. Also its no coincidence that stuff like the Macbook Air or the Iphone sells so well. Its looks and effects. Under all that, its still basic hardware.

If you dont know much about computers, you are probably not very interested either.

The entire reason Windows got so popular is because of its looks and consistent user interface. People started using it, and the developers started making tools.

It always starts with the GUI.

CCP Tuxford

Posted - 2008.08.28 21:48:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: CCP Tuxford on 28/08/2008 22:25:15
See what you guys have done, you've forced me to start tinkering with linux again. I've spent most of my evening trying to get my dvd player to work, I keep getting

Buffer I/O error on device sr0

when trying to install from the cd.

I finally gave up and am now trying to do something called "install inside windows" which sounds destined to make the earth spin out of its orbits and plunge into the sun.

When you all die in the raging inferno think fondly of me.

edit:
Well that worked Shocked

Fish Mittens
Minmatar
0utbreak
Posted - 2008.08.29 03:50:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Edited by: CCP Tuxford on 28/08/2008 22:25:15
See what you guys have done, you've forced me to start tinkering with linux again. I've spent most of my evening trying to get my dvd player to work, I keep getting

Buffer I/O error on device sr0

when trying to install from the cd.

I finally gave up and am now trying to do something called "install inside windows" which sounds destined to make the earth spin out of its orbits and plunge into the sun.

When you all die in the raging inferno think fondly of me.

edit:
Well that worked Shocked


Very strange, I've installed Ubuntu and other flavors of linux on some really old decrepid hardware (pentium IIs and IIIs) and never had any problems with CD or DVD drives. You probably have a bum drive, or most likely a damaged CD.

Re-record it on a fresh disk and try again.




ceaon
Posted - 2008.08.29 04:18:00 - [54]
 

when i test linux first time was whit gentoo and when i saw that from the 24mb boot cd i join on gentoo forums and post there for help just freaking out that moments
after 3 days get it working
then discovered goodbye-microsoft.com and was amazed how from a 2mb exe and boot debian and spend like 3 weeks testing things in linux,
CCP Atropos u just need time and patience
maybe CCP should make like google 10% of working time can be used on what worker like seams that give good results

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.08.29 18:19:00 - [55]
 


I can tell you that Ubuntu looks fantastic in 1900x1200. Got my 24" today... pretty incredible what a difference it makes. Also Eve with premium graphics at 1900x1200 = awesomeness. :)

Doesnt seem to be a linux driver for the Creative X-Fi sound cards though. There was some old beta that required a recompile of the kernel, and Ive made that mistake before on a friday night... spent the entire weekend trying to get things to work again.


Bish Ounen
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.08.29 18:31:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: CCP Tuxford
I keep getting

Buffer I/O error on device sr0

when trying to install from the cd.




That indicates a bad burn. You might want to try again, Unless wubi really did work for you, in which case, never mind.

CCP Tuxford

Posted - 2008.08.29 21:56:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Bish Ounen
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
I keep getting

Buffer I/O error on device sr0

when trying to install from the cd.




That indicates a bad burn. You might want to try again, Unless wubi really did work for you, in which case, never mind.

Yeah it was probably a bad burn. I tried running the cd from windows and "install inside windows" but got stalled on checksum thingie.

I simply downloaded the wubi installer and put it in the same directory as the iso image of ubuntu and it worked like a charm. Actually discarding the faulty cd problem then this has been the smoothest linux install for me,... almost takes the fun out of it Razz

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2008.08.30 11:33:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/08/2008 11:36:08

Originally by: CCP Tuxford

I simply downloaded the wubi installer and put it in the same directory as the iso image of ubuntu and it worked like a charm. Actually discarding the faulty cd problem then this has been the smoothest linux install for me,... almost takes the fun out of it Razz


Its even smoother than Windows these days. You answer a few questions and the install is done. Its very refreshing to not get the Windows install experience with 60 minute waiting times during which relentless messages about how much Windows makes your life nirvana never stops coming.

You could argue that installing applications on Linux is also easier thanks to the package system. You dont need to know where a application is on the web. All you need is its name and then search for it in the GUI repository tool and select to install it. You dont have to care where it gets installed either.

I installed apache, php 5, mysql and wordpress on my computer in less than 5 minutes. And it just works. You could do the same on Windows by using the Wampserver though. However... installing IIS from the CD, followed by Microsoft SQL Server Express, then php, then wordpress... that takes a lot longer. Specially SQL Server takes forever. Its amusing since mysql takes 20 seconds. :)

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.08.30 14:37:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor

You could argue that installing applications on Linux is also easier thanks to the package system. You dont need to know where a application is on the web. All you need is its name and then search for it in the GUI repository tool and select to install it. You dont have to care where it gets installed either.




Don't forget the maintenance. As long as your repository keeps track of all tools you have installed, updating EVERY SINGLE APP is just one simple press of a button. How friggin awesome is that?

Pyatera
Posted - 2008.08.30 18:23:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
Wow. My Ubuntu experience was hideous. I had a Ubuntu box for testing of the Linux EVE client, and I attempted to get Beryl to work on it; it made my head implode. And after it didn't work and I removed it, my nVidia drivers had disappeared and would no longer give me a decent resolution.

I've no idea what made my experience of Ubuntu so different, but it honestly didn't inspire me to try again. Windows might be a piece of ****, but I know where I stand when I want to install stuff and just get it working.

I tend to agree there. If I decided to try Ubuntu, it would be on a seperate PC. At least if I messed up, it wouldn't destroy my windows install as well. Once I know what I'm doing with a Unix based OS and I'm comfortable with using it, I'd be more at ease in dual booting.


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