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Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.23 08:12:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Deckert
All I can say is get a life man. Missions in general have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again. In 0.0 space making isk is far better than L4's ever will be thanx to the last big nerf that ccp did to L4's. Hell all missions in general were nerfed hard core. The bounties got droped down too way under 1mil more like 850k down too around 250k and thats for a battleship. Only way a battleship npc is above the 1mil mark is most likely a faction battlship. (Though I have seen bounties larger than that but only in 0.0 space doing missions for the pirates corps). CCP also nerfed the loot drops and nerfed the salvage from the wrecks as well. If CCP nerfs L4's anymore then doing mission would be a complete waste of time and CCP would loose money cause people would start to quite the game. So I would suggest you stop fricken whining and get over it. Cause people like you need to quite eve and go join WOW or something.

On a side note probing out plex's will more than worth peoples time cause they are more valuable than missions ever will be.


When was level 4 missions nerfed? Oh, that's right. They wheren't. In fact, they have been boosted over and over, and now we have the situation today. It would be nice if the people posting in here actually had a clue, but I guess that's too much to ask.

Xeronn
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.23 10:58:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Ruze
Edited by: Ruze on 21/08/2008 21:13:56
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Quote:
Risk vs Reward.


Stopped reading here. This is pretty much an infallible indicator that whatever the poster is on about, they're entirely full of ****.


Level 4 missions don't need to be fixed. Hisec doesn't need to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with players being able to make steady isk doing work for NPC agents.

If anything, players in hisec should be able to be more secure. Increase the size of hisec, to at least the same size or more of nulsec, increase the amount of agents and other things, and allow players who are fully interested in doing nothing but PvE to do so.


Flaw is that someone can ONLY do PvE in EvE , that needs to be fixed actually

Xeronn
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.23 11:02:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Malcanis


The PvE progression leads to 0.0, surely - 10/10 plexes and such.


Yeah, but there's a difference between PvE, and "PvE Only". The reality is that there are two very distinct player bases for MMOs. Some want to PvP, and others don't. At all. Most they will consider is "consensual" PvP ("dueling") that is "fair" and doesn't really cost anything.

Just about every game has PvE content, whether there is PvP or not. Most games have segregated servers where there is PvE Only, and PvP. Right now, eve provides both. It's primarily a PvP required game, with a modest PvE only progression. Why a PvE only player would choose to play Eve is beyond me, frankly. The PvE content pretty much sucks (dull, not very challenging or interesting). It's content that only an "easy mode" player could love.

Be that as it may, a majority chunk of your L4 high sec mission runners are these players. If you take that progression away from them, you aren't going to turn them into PvPers. This is just a fact of MMO life that has been proven again and again through the years.

It really comes down to whether you want them playing Eve, or not. If you don't, then what you do with level 4s doesn't matter. If you do, you have to make them lucrative enough that it doesn't take years to cap out that progression.


issue is that the majority eventually decides and the game will be molded to fit them...and in that it will be destroyed for the other group of players
Well we can allways hope CCP will stay true to there unique awessome approach to mmo`s . Fact is the beauty of eve is that Any action by Anyone affects the game for anyone else...

Steve Hawkings
Posted - 2008.08.23 11:07:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette


When was level 4 missions nerfed? Oh, that's right. They wheren't. In fact, they have been boosted over and over, and now we have the situation today. It would be nice if the people posting in here actually had a clue, but I guess that's too much to ask.



Are you playing the same game as us ?
Missions have been nerfed over and over many, many times since release.

Steve Hawkings
Posted - 2008.08.23 11:08:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Xeronn


Flaw is that someone can ONLY do PvE in EvE , that needs to be fixed actually



/sign
at one time this used to be marketed as a PVP game.

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.23 11:23:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Steve Hawkings


Are you playing the same game as us ?
Missions have been nerfed over and over many, many times since release.


I'm actually starting to doubt playing the same game as you. Missions, since I started in 06, have been boosted time and again. Missioning in low-sec has been nerfed, yes, but not high sec missions.

Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.08.23 11:29:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: Karentaki on 23/08/2008 11:30:57
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Karentaki

...and missions (Where you're pressing F1-F8 for a while and making 20 mill or more per hour with NO RISK of losing anything as long as you have a clue).


Hey guess what, that's EXACTLY like ratting in 0.0. You press F1-F8 and, as long as you have a clue, you have NO RISK of losing anything. At all. Ever. I have never been hunted down while belt ratting in 0.0. Never. Not once. If you pay the slightest bit of attention you are never at any kind of risk.

The only difference is a pretty small degree of convenience, and even THAT is negated if you're an actual 0.0 resident in an alliance.

There's no CONCORD out there. That does not mean there's any genuine risk.

All this prattling on about how much more "hardcore" 0.0 space is is ****ing laughable to anyone who has ever been there, tbh.

If you're going to **********, why not do it in private instead of on the forums?


I admit, I haven't spent long in 0.0 (a couple of months), but I've spent enough time there to realise that the difference in risk is significant. in highsec, you can pretty much run most missions with minimal attention, just targeting an enemy every 30 seconds and firing weapons. In 0.0, you may have the protection of an alliance, but unless you're in a heavily defended system (and therefore one where you must compete with 30 other people to rat), then you're going to still be at risk from roaming gangs. Not many get through the defences, but it only takes one nano-gang to pop that BS. Before now I've been tackled at a belt in 0.0 by nanos, but fortunately I was PvP fitted so I managed to fight them off, but even watching local regularly it is possible to be caught. The number of people I heard of losing ships to nano gangs in 0.0 was significantly more than "NONE". How many hostile roaming gangs do you get in highsec warping into your mission?

In addition to the risks (albeit small ones) of ratting in 0.0, what about the logistics. How many people does it take to run a L4 mission? 1. How many people does it take to run a 0.0 alliance so you can rat in relative safety? A few hundred in most cases! The difference is huge. Yes those few hundred people can all get very rich, but your argument is no different to saying "OH NOES, Why can 100 people pop my 1 ship!??! I don't like being outdone by superior organisation. CCP! Make it so I can compete in 1 v 100 situations!" To be honest, since this is a Massively Multiplayer Game, those who are most willing to work as a group to achieve a common goal should be more successful than the solo player. Of course the solo player should still be able to make a living, but there should be more emphasis on moving out of the newbie starter areas, into real spaceholding corporations and alliances.

Finally, in 0.0, no matter how much space an alliance controls, there are still limited resources. As I mentioned earlier, 30 people ratting in a system will make significantly less profit than 1 person. This is a general rule in EVE, and allows resources to be balanced and naturally counteracts the current lag caused by hundreds of player all in the same system. There are 2 exceptions to this rule: Missions, and trading. Trading is a natural development of the game, and there is little that can, or should be done to correct this. Trade hubs exist in any economic system, and are unavoidable. Missions on the other hand are entirely artificial.

Therefore, there are 2 main changes I would like to make to missions:

1 - Reduce the rewards by about 50%

2 - Make agents vary in quality depending on how many people are running missions for them. This would naturally boost lowsec agents up to competetive levels, and also help to reduce the lag in the major mission hubs. Obviously it would not remove lag, because they are usually trade hubs too, but it would limit the lag considerably.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2008.08.23 11:55:00 - [248]
 

I think it's extremely interesting that such a large number of players are suggesting that high sec and L4 missions in particular (in high sec) be nerfed, when such a think isn't an actively belligerent activity.

Just to be clear: I think that high sec missions should be nerfed to hell and back, for the obvious reasons. I just think that it's notable that so many players want CCP to return Eve to it's roots and reinstate a hard core PVP focus to the game instead of this PVE centric crap we currently have going on.

Maria Kalista
Amarr
Knights of Kador
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:00:00 - [249]
 


As said here before, no-one will bring his 80+ mil boat, with 6-7 T2 hardeners+3 rigs worth several more millions of isk + I donno what to 0.4 or lower. Since there is noway you can PvP with an PvE equipped ship. If it where possible, then you had a point, but now you don't.

Besides that, running level 4's is a valid profession in EVE, which takes months to master.
Like all other professions in EVE.
What's next? Nerf trading because people can so easily make billioens within almost no time and the risk is far below the reward? ugh

Oh, and after that we surely should nerf Chribba, that is way so not right.
Just shut up and play EVE.

Ghoest
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:15:00 - [250]
 

Edited by: Ghoest on 23/08/2008 15:15:56
Nerfing high sec makes people quit the game = bad.


Improving low sec profit makes people spend more time in low sec = good


OP = clueless


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:20:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Maria Kalista

As said here before, no-one will bring his 80+ mil boat, with 6-7 T2 hardeners+3 rigs worth several more millions of isk + I donno what to 0.4 or lower. Since there is noway you can PvP with an PvE equipped ship. If it where possible, then you had a point, but now you don't.

Besides that, running level 4's is a valid profession in EVE, which takes months to master.
Like all other professions in EVE.
What's next? Nerf trading because people can so easily make billioens within almost no time and the risk is far below the reward? ugh

Oh, and after that we surely should nerf Chribba, that is way so not right.
Just shut up and play EVE.


Trading is PvP, not PvE. Missioning should be compared with mining & exploration, not trade, manufacturing or invention. it's OK that people can make millions trading, because they can equally easily lose millions trading.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:25:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Karentaki
1 - Reduce the rewards by about 50%
50% sounds a bit much, but the number also depends very much on what kind of "rewards" we're talking about. Is that a 50% reduction across the board (bounties, LP, rewards, bonuses, loot drops, salvage amounts), or just the rewards you receive from the agent?

Khorian
Gallente
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:27:00 - [253]
 

Make lvl 4 High Sec Missions less lucrative? I think they are crap allready. Low reward, boring as hell. Sure, they are quite safe, but there are tons of things more rewarding if you are willing to take some risks.

High Sec LvL4s are fine. They are a good way to get bored of EVE and quit. If you make them any less valuable they will be useless.

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:28:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Maria Kalista

As said here before, no-one will bring his 80+ mil boat, with 6-7 T2 hardeners+3 rigs worth several more millions of isk + I donno what to 0.4 or lower. Since there is noway you can PvP with an PvE equipped ship. If it where possible, then you had a point, but now you don't.

Besides that, running level 4's is a valid profession in EVE, which takes months to master.
Like all other professions in EVE.
What's next? Nerf trading because people can so easily make billioens within almost no time and the risk is far below the reward? ugh

Oh, and after that we surely should nerf Chribba, that is way so not right.
Just shut up and play EVE.


Was it you that said earlier that you needed a CNR with faction mods to run lvl 4 missions? Also, you obviously have no idea what this debate is about.

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:29:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Khorian
Make lvl 4 High Sec Missions less lucrative? I think they are crap allready. Low reward, boring as hell. Sure, they are quite safe, but there are tons of things more rewarding if you are willing to take some risks.

High Sec LvL4s are fine. They are a good way to get bored of EVE and quit. If you make them any less valuable they will be useless.


Name one single safe PvE activity that a solo player can do that comes even close to the isk/h of high sec level 4 missions.

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:56:00 - [256]
 

Once again a Pvper has made another STUPID post about nerfing level missions, or any mission...PvEers dont want to PvP, they want to play against the AI not you. PvEers are the bread and butter for CCP. Force them to play your game and they will leave. Move the missions, nerf them to the point of them not being fun anymore and they will leave the game.

I was playing before the missions came about, 3500 people on line was standard...once missions started to be introduced, online count went from 3500 to 5000 to 15000 and continues to climb.

Why is that? Cause the PvEers from other games came to play a space game, they like to 'raid', 'craft', and do things that DONT require you to keep on the look out for the next griefer.

Yeah, sure keep posting these threads, and maybe CCP will get a case of brain farts, and NERF the PvE aspect of this game. Then this game like so many others will become a small scale, history game with 3500 people on at one time again....Rolling Eyes

And by the way, your post shows how young your toon really is...CCP already came out and said "We will not force players to low sec..."



oilio
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:56:00 - [257]
 

I've said it before, but it's worth saying again...

If you move L4s to low sec, or if you nerf the hell out of high sec L4s to try to drive people into low sec who don't want to go, then Eve is in trouble.

Whether you like it or not, some people like to PvE

Others grind missions for ISK to buy timecards so they can keep playing.

Others (me) grind missions for ISK to fund their PvP character.

You're talking about nerfing the income of AT LEAST 30% of the Eve playerbase.

You think you can DRIVE people into PvP whether they like it or not? Well, if CCP listen to you, it will be interesting and we'll see who's right.

I still maintain that you will see a dramatic FALL in the number of subscribers. I'm not sure that's what CCP wants... or what you want, if you really thought about it.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:58:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: oilio

Others (me) grind missions for ISK to fund their PvP character.



THAT part is one of the significant issues.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:59:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Roshan longshot
PvEers dont want to PvP, they want to play against the AI not you



Oh, really.

See all the people doing L4s to support their PvP? And having more ISK to support PvP then low-sec dwellers? Laughing

SSgt Sniper
Gallente
SSgt Sniper Temporary corp
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:59:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
i think forum whines need to be nerfed


I endorse this product and/or service.

Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:03:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Roshan longshot
PvEers dont want to PvP, they want to play against the AI not you



Oh, really.

See all the people doing L4s to support their PvP? And having more ISK to support PvP then low-sec dwellers? Laughing


What people? I dont see a single PvPer doing missions. I see alot of FW people...but every PvEer I have seen in a level four mission has HIGH security, and dont belong to a PvP corp...So yes, there are some nasty PvPers doing level four missions with alts...Thats the only way to continue PvP. But telling CCP to cut their own throats, so you can jump some PvEer with tech II mods, in low-sec is not the way.


Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:08:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Deckert
All I can say is get a life man. Missions in general have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again. In 0.0 space making isk is far better than L4's ever will be thanx to the last big nerf that ccp did to L4's. Hell all missions in general were nerfed hard core. The bounties got droped down too way under 1mil more like 850k down too around 250k and thats for a battleship. Only way a battleship npc is above the 1mil mark is most likely a faction battlship. (Though I have seen bounties larger than that but only in 0.0 space doing missions for the pirates corps). CCP also nerfed the loot drops and nerfed the salvage from the wrecks as well. If CCP nerfs L4's anymore then doing mission would be a complete waste of time and CCP would loose money cause people would start to quite the game. So I would suggest you stop fricken whining and get over it. Cause people like you need to quite eve and go join WOW or something.

On a side note probing out plex's will more than worth peoples time cause they are more valuable than missions ever will be.


When was level 4 missions nerfed? Oh, that's right. They wheren't. In fact, they have been boosted over and over, and now we have the situation today. It would be nice if the people posting in here actually had a clue, but I guess that's too much to ask.



Humm I dont think they have been boosted, salvage sucks, loot sucks, and bounties suck, and what is this? The NPC hit harder then the ones in 0.0.

I rat during the week in 0.0 in a BC....run missions during the weekends...Same BC and never came close to loseing it. Empire missions cost me three BCs and four BS so far...

I think the Risk VS Reward is a little backward here.....

SSgt Sniper
Gallente
SSgt Sniper Temporary corp
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:08:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: oilio
I've said it before, but it's worth saying again...

If you move L4s to low sec, or if you nerf the hell out of high sec L4s to try to drive people into low sec who don't want to go, then Eve is in trouble.

Whether you like it or not, some people like to PvE

Others grind missions for ISK to buy timecards so they can keep playing.

Others (me) grind missions for ISK to fund their PvP character.

You're talking about nerfing the income of AT LEAST 30% of the Eve playerbase.

You think you can DRIVE people into PvP whether they like it or not? Well, if CCP listen to you, it will be interesting and we'll see who's right.

I still maintain that you will see a dramatic FALL in the number of subscribers. I'm not sure that's what CCP wants... or what you want, if you really thought about it.


Well, on the other hand, Lag in Dodixie, Jita, and Oursulaert would improve........

That said folks need to realize that the game is fairly well balanced atm. The mineral market is hurting a little bit, but even that's been recovering of late. CCP really needs to LEAVE THEIR GAME ALONE BEFORE THEY DO BREAK IT.

oilio
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:08:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: oilio

Others (me) grind missions for ISK to fund their PvP character.



THAT part is one of the significant issues.



As are the others.

What you need to remember is that this game lives or dies by the number of SUBSCRIBERS. Less subscribers = less income for CCP and Eve suffers.

Low Sec dwellers can also run missions. Low sec dwellers can also run HIGH SEC missions. High sec missions do not exist AT THE EXPENSE of low sec dwellers.

Anyway, this debate has become stupid. Let's see what happens.

Andrue
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:12:00 - [265]
 

Edited by: Andrue on 23/08/2008 16:12:52
Originally by: Ruze
Originally by: Malcanis
I dunno, I'm increasingly coming to the view that the "PvE only" mindset is ultimately detrimental to and incompatible with the basic structure and idea of EvE. It totally misses the point... it's like some guy who buys a ticket to the opera then listens to his iPod the whole way through. Yeah he's paid for his ticket, whatever, but what the hell is he doing?
[snip]



It's one thing if he sits and listens to the ipod during the show. Nobody is bothered by that.

It's something completely different when he complains about how loud the opera singers are.
But that's not an accurate analogy.

It's more like some guy buys an opera ticket then sits in the audience listening to his iPod with earbuds so no-one can hear him. Then someone in the audience leans over and grabs the iPod and stamps on it.

That situation is a whole lot more complex. What would the theatre management do? They wouldn't want the iPod user to stop buying tickets because opera is a niche interest and they need all the sales they can get. More likely they would require the offender to replace the iPod and post notices warning patrons that the theatre does not tolerate such vandalism and interference.

SSgt Sniper
Gallente
SSgt Sniper Temporary corp
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:12:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Khorian
Make lvl 4 High Sec Missions less lucrative? I think they are crap allready. Low reward, boring as hell. Sure, they are quite safe, but there are tons of things more rewarding if you are willing to take some risks.

High Sec LvL4s are fine. They are a good way to get bored of EVE and quit. If you make them any less valuable they will be useless.


Name one single safe PvE activity that a solo player can do that comes even close to the isk/h of high sec level 4 missions.



Mining.

You nerf whine people really don't realize just how crap the loot drops are anymore do you? I don't even bother to loot anymore, I just salvage what's in my immediate reach and then LEAVE, because I can frankly do better with a new mission or going mining than I can to loot all that JUNK in the hopes I'll find one arbalest launcher of some kind.

Andrue
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:17:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Deckert
All I can say is get a life man. Missions in general have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again. In 0.0 space making isk is far better than L4's ever will be thanx to the last big nerf that ccp did to L4's. Hell all missions in general were nerfed hard core. The bounties got droped down too way under 1mil more like 850k down too around 250k and thats for a battleship. Only way a battleship npc is above the 1mil mark is most likely a faction battlship. (Though I have seen bounties larger than that but only in 0.0 space doing missions for the pirates corps). CCP also nerfed the loot drops and nerfed the salvage from the wrecks as well. If CCP nerfs L4's anymore then doing mission would be a complete waste of time and CCP would loose money cause people would start to quite the game. So I would suggest you stop fricken whining and get over it. Cause people like you need to quite eve and go join WOW or something.

On a side note probing out plex's will more than worth peoples time cause they are more valuable than missions ever will be.


When was level 4 missions nerfed? Oh, that's right. They wheren't. In fact, they have been boosted over and over, and now we have the situation today. It would be nice if the people posting in here actually had a clue, but I guess that's too much to ask.

They have been steadily nerfed over the last year. High metalevel items are becoming increasingly rare. I run missions for some 2 hours a day during the week and I can go an entire week - maybe two weeks without once picking up a valuable item in loot.

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:30:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Roshan longshot
What people? I dont see a single PvPer doing missions. I see alot of FW people...but every PvEer I have seen in a level four mission has HIGH security, and dont belong to a PvP corp...So yes, there are some nasty PvPers doing level four missions with alts...Thats the only way to continue PvP. But telling CCP to cut their own throats, so you can jump some PvEer with tech II mods, in low-sec is not the way.




I run level 4 missions to support my PvP. In fact, I'd say most level 4 runners do it to support their PvP. It's funny how opponents of this nerf change their opinion on that point depending on wether it suits their argument or not.

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:33:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: SSgt Sniper
Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

Name one single safe PvE activity that a solo player can do that comes even close to the isk/h of high sec level 4 missions.



Mining.

You nerf whine people really don't realize just how crap the loot drops are anymore do you? I don't even bother to loot anymore, I just salvage what's in my immediate reach and then LEAVE, because I can frankly do better with a new mission or going mining than I can to loot all that JUNK in the hopes I'll find one arbalest launcher of some kind.


You're kidding, right? Mining gets you as much as level 4 missions? It gets you even close? No, it doesn't. Many of us "nerf whiners" are mission runners ourselves. I know exactly how 'crap' the loot is. It's so crap that the constant refining of it has messed up the mineral market. I know exactly how crap salvage is. It's so crap that rigs that used to cost 100mil now cost 15mil, because noone salvages, right?

I sure hope your post is a joke, because that's the stupidest post in this thread by far, and that's saying something.

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:36:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Andrue
They have been steadily nerfed over the last year. High metalevel items are becoming increasingly rare. I run missions for some 2 hours a day during the week and I can go an entire week - maybe two weeks without once picking up a valuable item in loot.


No, they haven't been nerfed. High metalevel items have become rare, yes. However, you instead get an extremely high supply of raw minerals in the veritable truck loads of T1 junk that is dropped. You also get salvage totalling up to 15 millions in the best missions. You get loyalty points by the boatloads, and since one of the many recent mission boosts, you can now pick and chose which rediculously underpriced faction item you want from the loyalty point store.

When I started running missions back in 2006 your standard rewards was 1mil + 10 cargo expander Is as a time bonus. Or, how about 1.5 mil and 150 militia? Yes, you got crappy unsellable junk instead of the raw isk you get now. Now that's another mission boost.

So, all in all, high sec missioning have gotten boost after boost after boost, and you complain about the fact that high meta level items don't drop as much anymore?

My God!


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