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Dave Davies
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:13:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer


No, it just kills us that no skilled people with the iq of a monkey can make more money then skilled pvpers living in dangerous space. Don't flatter yourself.


"Boo hoo. I am morally, genetically and intellectually superior and yet totally underappreciated."

Persecution complex much?

Having sampled some of the "1337 pvp" mindset around here I'm going to go out on a limb and prognosticate the following reasons why you're having trouble making ISK:

You've devoted all your play time and skill training to cool pvp stuff and never bothered to train or even look into the economic/ grind end of the game because you don't want to "look like a carebear." And now you're mad because the people who did do that stuff are having an easier time staying afloat than you are.

But of course, they're "dumb" and you're not. I mean, how could it be otherwise?

Duncan MacPherson
Minmatar
Avatars of Ore
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:17:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Aarin Wrath
This thread is all flames and toll bait, and has IMHO degenerated to the point of no longer offering content but I will offer one more point:

I fail to see how Lvl4 missions are risk free, and that pvp is not.

If you know what you are doing, have the right ship, good skills yeah, you have little risk. You still can make a mistake and loose your ship. I have done so many times.

BUT
I can say the same thing about pvp. If you have the right ship, know what you are doing, you also have little risk.

In a roaming gang, or solo, you do not engage unless you know you will win.
Where is the risk in that?


Before the trolls hit:
Yes I have pvp'd, I have been in roaming gangs and gate camps, etc.

Ok .. Go ahead and troll me now Rolling Eyes


100% agree. I came very close to losing 200+ million ship last night in a lvl 4. I was very very lucky and managed to drop the scramming rat and warped out with 1% armor. Was very close.

But I have lost my share of ships. I know one guy that has lost a couple of faction fitted ships. I don't go the faction route. To much isk at risk. Only fly what you can lose. If I undock in it I already consider it a loss. That goes for implants as well.

Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:18:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Malcanis


The PvE progression leads to 0.0, surely - 10/10 plexes and such.


Yeah, but there's a difference between PvE, and "PvE Only". The reality is that there are two very distinct player bases for MMOs. Some want to PvP, and others don't. At all. Most they will consider is "consensual" PvP ("dueling") that is "fair" and doesn't really cost anything.

Just about every game has PvE content, whether there is PvP or not. Most games have segregated servers where there is PvE Only, and PvP. Right now, eve provides both. It's primarily a PvP required game, with a modest PvE only progression. Why a PvE only player would choose to play Eve is beyond me, frankly. The PvE content pretty much sucks (dull, not very challenging or interesting). It's content that only an "easy mode" player could love.

Be that as it may, a majority chunk of your L4 high sec mission runners are these players. If you take that progression away from them, you aren't going to turn them into PvPers. This is just a fact of MMO life that has been proven again and again through the years.

It really comes down to whether you want them playing Eve, or not. If you don't, then what you do with level 4s doesn't matter. If you do, you have to make them lucrative enough that it doesn't take years to cap out that progression.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:01:00 - [214]
 

I don't know what the 'majority' of hisec level 4 mission runners are. From my experience, the big hisec mission running level 4 hounds that I've come into contact with have been mostly PvP alts or just nulsec jump clones.

Me? I have jump clones in nulsec, seem to spend most of my time nowadays in hisec. I enjoy missions for what they are worth. Worse, I like collecting ships, ships that I'll either never use or will never use seriously. Hisec provides me a place to store my collection, and pull it out every now and then for a joyride.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:06:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Feilamya
Real carebears don't post on the forums.
All the outrage about threads like this (where are the 193654324 threads about the topic? I've only seen 2 or 3...) is from alts of PVPers who do lvl4s so they can buy ships.
Not true. I'm posting, even though I'm a complete carebear and not an alt…

…then again, I'm also all for a change to L4s, so you might be right there Razz

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:09:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Malcanis


The PvE progression leads to 0.0, surely - 10/10 plexes and such.


Yeah, but there's a difference between PvE, and "PvE Only". The reality is that there are two very distinct player bases for MMOs. Some want to PvP, and others don't. At all. Most they will consider is "consensual" PvP ("dueling") that is "fair" and doesn't really cost anything.

Just about every game has PvE content, whether there is PvP or not. Most games have segregated servers where there is PvE Only, and PvP. Right now, eve provides both. It's primarily a PvP required game, with a modest PvE only progression. Why a PvE only player would choose to play Eve is beyond me, frankly. The PvE content pretty much sucks (dull, not very challenging or interesting). It's content that only an "easy mode" player could love.

Be that as it may, a majority chunk of your L4 high sec mission runners are these players. If you take that progression away from them, you aren't going to turn them into PvPers. This is just a fact of MMO life that has been proven again and again through the years.

It really comes down to whether you want them playing Eve, or not. If you don't, then what you do with level 4s doesn't matter. If you do, you have to make them lucrative enough that it doesn't take years to cap out that progression.


I dunno, I'm increasingly coming to the view that the "PvE only" mindset is ultimately detrimental to and incompatible with the basic structure and idea of EvE. It totally misses the point... it's like some guy who buys a ticket to the opera then listens to his iPod the whole way through. Yeah he's paid for his ticket, whatever, but what the hell is he doing?

If there's any point to this game at all, it should be that you can't ignore other players and they can't ignore you. Trying to incorporate and accomodate the "I just want to be alone" crowd is ultimately futile IMO. I don't really hate them or blame them, I just feel baffled by their choice of an explicitly sandbox style game to be alone in. My brother does a similar thing... he literally plays WoW as a single player game with a chat client. He chats with his friend when he's on, I've never seen them raid together or anything. Why he just doesn't play Morrowind and install an IRC client escapes me, but the point is that with the way WoW is structured, it doesn't really matter a damb to anyone else what he does - unlike evE where it does.

Victor Forge
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:31:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Victor Forge on 22/08/2008 21:32:18
Originally by: Victor Forge
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


So we had the industrial undercurrent, who needed protection and was willing to pay for it. Who did they pay? Well, not every combat player is by default a pirate, and not every pirate is a griefer. Some just want combat, because they enjoy it! Anyhow, a couple mil in their pockets (garnered from corp taxes, btw), and they were happy to keep hostiles out of the zone. They were still gate camping, they were still getting a quick kill, but they were paid to do it. Win-win for them, and it also kept our 'competitors' from our belts.

Add to that, mining in hisec (unless it was the rare ice belt), was unprofitable as hell, so the industry guys had to go out if they wanted to make money in their profession.



Well, nerf High-sec and make it a grinding game like Lineage II, and you will in a way get back to that time, population size that is.

Players are not going to low-sec not because they are being blown up every time they do, but they are blown up often enough. Same thing with pirates "not every pirate is a griefer". That is true, but again, enough of them are griefers that make players distrust every pirate they donīt know. Not to mention that there are pirates you canīt talk to at all, since they donīt understand English.Razz

I dunno how it was back then, but the lack of trust now when it comes to players you donīt know in EvE is probably lower than in any other mmorpg. But High-sec PvErs donīt have that problem, they can stay in a small corp whith few people they really can trust, or remain in the NPC corps. Or they can be PvEers in big 0.0 corps with good reputation. Shockingly enough EvE can be good social game for those players.

It is just sad that pirates that demands a few targets more in low-sec want High sec PvE players to quit EvE, because they canīt respect that there are players that likes the game even without doing PvP.


Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:34:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Malcanis


I dunno, I'm increasingly coming to the view that the "PvE only" mindset is ultimately detrimental to and incompatible with the basic structure and idea of EvE. It totally misses the point... it's like some guy who buys a ticket to the opera then listens to his iPod the whole way through. Yeah he's paid for his ticket, whatever, but what the hell is he doing?




Yeah, I guess we'll just end up agreeing to disagree about that.

I appreciate what you are saying about the income potential of level 4s marginalizing other content (like crappy 0.0 space and even crappier low-sec space). Personally, I think that space deserves to be empty. Why do I want to sc**** by in crappy 0.0 space only to be steamrolled by my rich neighbor just because he thinks it'd be fun?

I don't think the profitability of level 4s is what keeps people from choosing to live like a share-cropper in the shadow of the manor on the hill. But, that's not something that I either of us can prove. If they do actually take L4s away, or put them in low-sec where you'd have to be an idiot to run them, we'll just have to see what occurs.

I've got no crystal ball, but my money is on CCP not doing that. In fact, I think they're leaning in the other direction. Time will tell. It won't effect me much either way.

I think I've exausted what I had to say on this topic.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:34:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
I dunno, I'm increasingly coming to the view that the "PvE only" mindset is ultimately detrimental to and incompatible with the basic structure and idea of EvE. It totally misses the point... it's like some guy who buys a ticket to the opera then listens to his iPod the whole way through. Yeah he's paid for his ticket, whatever, but what the hell is he doing?

If there's any point to this game at all, it should be that you can't ignore other players and they can't ignore you. Trying to incorporate and accomodate the "I just want to be alone" crowd is ultimately futile IMO. I don't really hate them or blame them, I just feel baffled by their choice of an explicitly sandbox style game to be alone in. My brother does a similar thing... he literally plays WoW as a single player game with a chat client. He chats with his friend when he's on, I've never seen them raid together or anything. Why he just doesn't play Morrowind and install an IRC client escapes me, but the point is that with the way WoW is structured, it doesn't really matter a damb to anyone else what he does - unlike evE where it does.


It's one thing if he sits and listens to the ipod during the show. Nobody is bothered by that.

It's something completely different when he complains about how loud the opera singers are.




It's one thing for a person to come into EvE and do nothing but PvE. As many said, who cares? Sure I can come up with valid arguments for how they are 'affecting' the rest of EvE, but the players actual playstyle don't bother anybody.

But it's something completely different when they come into EvE, choose to do nothing but PvE, and then when they have to pick something up in losec, get wardec'd, or are victim to criminal acts (read, suicide ganking), they complain so heavy and so loud that they get the game changed.

I'm not personally against the proposed changes, by any means. But when they fix the imbalance and overuse of suicide ganking, and when they fix the destructive purpose of war dec grief, what are they going to do to balance it out?

Allow hisec to be more secure! It'll sure as hell help a lot of manufacturers and traders, no doubt. But with this added security, should we also keep the same level of profitability?




If you see nothing wrong with the level of money you can make in hisec, then you don't 'get' my argument. No harm there. But if they increase the rewards in losec and nulsec, it'll have the same impact.

I guess one of my bigger worries is that making hisec safer and more secure will draw even MORE players into EvE, and hisec will not only be unable to handle the load, but they will have enough weight to further separate the design of the game between 'PvE' and 'PvP.' That would be a crime, and it's a crime I'm not looking forward to.

Cause even though I love doing missions, and I love PvE ... I don't like games where PvE is everything. And I don't like that playerbase. Those guys aren't the kind of players who want to compete. They are the kind of players who want things handed to them. And if you think our forums and our players are 'childish' and rakish now, I beg you to visit the forums of WoW, or SWG, or any of these other marketable games.

Part of the reason we have such a mature playerbase is because the game requires you to buck up and protect yourself. Changing to accommodate more players has crushed many games in the past. I worry that it'll happen with EvE. Not today, and not in the next year, but I'd prefer not to work and build my character for the next year and a half and then look around and find the game isn't smoething I enjoy.

Whatever. It'll probably happen anyway. Can't play forever, can we.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:35:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Victor Forge
Edited by: Victor Forge on 22/08/2008 21:32:18
Originally by: Victor Forge
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


So we had the industrial undercurrent, who needed protection and was willing to pay for it. Who did they pay? Well, not every combat player is by default a pirate, and not every pirate is a griefer. Some just want combat, because they enjoy it! Anyhow, a couple mil in their pockets (garnered from corp taxes, btw), and they were happy to keep hostiles out of the zone. They were still gate camping, they were still getting a quick kill, but they were paid to do it. Win-win for them, and it also kept our 'competitors' from our belts.

Add to that, mining in hisec (unless it was the rare ice belt), was unprofitable as hell, so the industry guys had to go out if they wanted to make money in their profession.



Well, nerf High-sec and make it a grinding game like Lineage II, and you will in a way get back to that time, population size that is.

Players are not going to low-sec not because they are being blown up every time they do, but they are blown up often enough. Same thing with pirates "not every pirate is a griefer". That is true, but again, enough of them are griefers that make players distrust every pirate they donīt know. Not to mention that there are pirates you canīt talk to at all, since they donīt understand English.Razz

I dunno how it was back then, but the lack of trust now when it comes to players you donīt know in EvE is probably lower than in any other mmorpg. But High-sec PvErs donīt have that problem, they can stay in a small corp whith few people they really can trust, or remain in the NPC corps. Or they can be PvEers in big 0.0 corps with good reputation. Shockingly enough EvE can be good social game for those players.

It is just sad that pirates that demands a few targets more in low-sec want High sec PvE players to quit EvE, because they canīt respect that there are players that likes the game even without doing PvP.




Why are you arguing with yourself?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:40:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Ruze
Originally by: Malcanis
I dunno, I'm increasingly coming to the view that the "PvE only" mindset is ultimately detrimental to and incompatible with the basic structure and idea of EvE. It totally misses the point... it's like some guy who buys a ticket to the opera then listens to his iPod the whole way through. Yeah he's paid for his ticket, whatever, but what the hell is he doing?

If there's any point to this game at all, it should be that you can't ignore other players and they can't ignore you. Trying to incorporate and accomodate the "I just want to be alone" crowd is ultimately futile IMO. I don't really hate them or blame them, I just feel baffled by their choice of an explicitly sandbox style game to be alone in. My brother does a similar thing... he literally plays WoW as a single player game with a chat client. He chats with his friend when he's on, I've never seen them raid together or anything. Why he just doesn't play Morrowind and install an IRC client escapes me, but the point is that with the way WoW is structured, it doesn't really matter a damb to anyone else what he does - unlike evE where it does.


It's one thing if he sits and listens to the ipod during the show. Nobody is bothered by that.

It's something completely different when he complains about how loud the opera singers are.




It's one thing for a person to come into EvE and do nothing but PvE. As many said, who cares? Sure I can come up with valid arguments for how they are 'affecting' the rest of EvE, but the players actual playstyle don't bother anybody.

But it's something completely different when they come into EvE, choose to do nothing but PvE, and then when they have to pick something up in losec, get wardec'd, or are victim to criminal acts (read, suicide ganking), they complain so heavy and so loud that they get the game changed.

I'm not personally against the proposed changes, by any means. But when they fix the imbalance and overuse of suicide ganking, and when they fix the destructive purpose of war dec grief, what are they going to do to balance it out?

Allow hisec to be more secure! It'll sure as hell help a lot of manufacturers and traders, no doubt. But with this added security, should we also keep the same level of profitability?




If you see nothing wrong with the level of money you can make in hisec, then you don't 'get' my argument. No harm there. But if they increase the rewards in losec and nulsec, it'll have the same impact.

I guess one of my bigger worries is that making hisec safer and more secure will draw even MORE players into EvE, and hisec will not only be unable to handle the load, but they will have enough weight to further separate the design of the game between 'PvE' and 'PvP.' That would be a crime, and it's a crime I'm not looking forward to.

Cause even though I love doing missions, and I love PvE ... I don't like games where PvE is everything. And I don't like that playerbase. Those guys aren't the kind of players who want to compete. They are the kind of players who want things handed to them. And if you think our forums and our players are 'childish' and rakish now, I beg you to visit the forums of WoW, or SWG, or any of these other marketable games.

Part of the reason we have such a mature playerbase is because the game requires you to buck up and protect yourself. Changing to accommodate more players has crushed many games in the past. I worry that it'll happen with EvE. Not today, and not in the next year, but I'd prefer not to work and build my character for the next year and a half and then look around and find the game isn't smoething I enjoy.

Whatever. It'll probably happen anyway. Can't play forever, can we.


Yeah well if that happens my characters will have a pretty nice value on eBay or that other site. I can at least recover some of my monetary investment. I'm against RMT for games I play, but if the game comes to such a pass as you describe, then..

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:41:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Malcanis


I dunno, I'm increasingly coming to the view that the "PvE only" mindset is ultimately detrimental to and incompatible with the basic structure and idea of EvE. It totally misses the point... it's like some guy who buys a ticket to the opera then listens to his iPod the whole way through. Yeah he's paid for his ticket, whatever, but what the hell is he doing?




Yeah, I guess we'll just end up agreeing to disagree about that.

I appreciate what you are saying about the income potential of level 4s marginalizing other content (like crappy 0.0 space and even crappier low-sec space). Personally, I think that space deserves to be empty. Why do I want to sc**** by in crappy 0.0 space only to be steamrolled by my rich neighbor just because he thinks it'd be fun?

I don't think the profitability of level 4s is what keeps people from choosing to live like a share-cropper in the shadow of the manor on the hill. But, that's not something that I either of us can prove. If they do actually take L4s away, or put them in low-sec where you'd have to be an idiot to run them, we'll just have to see what occurs.

I've got no crystal ball, but my money is on CCP not doing that. In fact, I think they're leaning in the other direction. Time will tell. It won't effect me much either way.

I think I've exausted what I had to say on this topic.


I'm afraid you're right.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:42:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Victor Forge

Well, nerf High-sec and make it a grinding game like Lineage II, and you will in a way get back to that time, population size that is.

Players are not going to low-sec not because they are being blown up every time they do, but they are blown up often enough. Same thing with pirates "not every pirate is a griefer". That is true, but again, enough of them are griefers that make players distrust every pirate they donīt know. Not to mention that there are pirates you canīt talk to at all, since they donīt understand English.Razz

I dunno how it was back then, but the lack of trust now when it comes to players you donīt know in EvE is probably lower than in any other mmorpg. But High-sec PvErs donīt have that problem, they can stay in a small corp whith few people they really can trust, or remain in the NPC corps. Or they can be PvEers in big 0.0 corps with good reputation. Shockingly enough EvE can be good social game for those players.

It is just sad that pirates that demands a few targets more in low-sec want High sec PvE players to quit EvE, because they canīt respect that there are players that likes the game even without doing PvP.




Whats wrong with that lack of trust? Do you not play EvE for that premise, at least a little bit?

You didn't trust players back two years ago, either. Not the smart ones. Why? Because just like in real life, if you trust somebody you don't know, your a fool. That's part of the allure of EvE, is it not?

You can do damn near anything here. CCP doesn't write your morals for you. The player chooses the morality. Some are good about it, some are bad.

I don't see this mass exodus of players leaving the game that you do. Personally, I don't think there are that many pure PvE'rs. Honest to goodness. From my own experiences, I've met a lot of new players and manufacturers, but most of the new players are enjoying FW, and the manufacturers have never changed. Seems like there are more mission running alts and jump-clones to me. You might have different experiences elsewhere, who knows.

If you take out the rewards of hisec, some will just do the weaker stuff. Some will go where the rewards are. Others, like myself, will continue to live in all three areas, just because their are bits and pieces I like in each.

I don't think you can please everyone, but EvE has been going steady for five years. They could have capitulated to the 'don't hurt me' market long ago, and they still might. Maybe I'm just trying to do my part in screaming loud enough so that EvE remains a game I and so many others enjoy.

Victor Forge
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:42:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Ki An

Why are you arguing with yourself?



I am not, but I agree the quotes are hard to follow. *tries to avoid pyramid quoting*

Victor Forge
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.22 22:05:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Ruze

Whats wrong with that lack of trust? Do you not play EvE for that premise, at least a little bit?



Trust was your solution to lower the risk in low-sec by paying pirates in low-sec for protection, to be allowed to mission or mine in their territory. If I "trust" what you are saying, it was possible back then. It might still possible, but the amount of griefing is high enough to make players not taking chanses with pirates anymore, thus an near empty low-sec.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.22 22:10:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Victor Forge
Originally by: Ruze

Whats wrong with that lack of trust? Do you not play EvE for that premise, at least a little bit?



Trust was your solution to lower the risk in low-sec by paying pirates in low-sec for protection, to be allowed to mission or mine in their territory. If I "trust" what you are saying, it was possible back then. It might still possible, but the amount of griefing is high enough to make players not taking chanses with pirates anymore, thus an near empty low-sec.



I agree that some of the players calling themselves pirates are to blame for the state of lo-sec. Pirating for ISk I can well respect; pirating for KMs... meh. That's barely above the worst kind of mission-grinder.

Luckily these types are generally the easiest to drive off with determined opposition.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.22 22:13:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Victor Forge
Originally by: Ruze

Whats wrong with that lack of trust? Do you not play EvE for that premise, at least a little bit?



Trust was your solution to lower the risk in low-sec by paying pirates in low-sec for protection, to be allowed to mission or mine in their territory. If I "trust" what you are saying, it was possible back then. It might still possible, but the amount of griefing is high enough to make players not taking chanses with pirates anymore, thus an near empty low-sec.



It's possible now. If I was making the money, I'd do it solo Laughing

But the big thing is a) mineral prices, and b) lots of new hisec players who have been taught since starting that pirates are evil and that they will be killed instantly, yadda yadda.

They've been brainwashed into thinking that PvP is bad and the only hope they have is to stay in hisec. Which is a load of crock. The way you beat pirates is to either hire them, or blast the hell out of them.

But if your too scared to arm yourself because you believe the lessons other games teach (mainly, a new player has no f*cking chance in hell to beat an older player, or even a slightly-older player), there's no way you'd go into that oh-so-dangerous losec.

Don't tell everyone this, but those pirates seem to be allergic to well armed groups of 'victims'. Check out how they complain about FW, if you need proof.



It's not 'trust' that solves these things. It's desperation, ingenuity, and action. You won't provide desperatino until hisec missioning is on the same level as hisec mining. You won't provoke ingenuity until players are put into a position where grinding in hisec is worth less than their time. And you can't initiate action as long as players are coward by a false sense of security.

Think 'America' and 'terrorism'. If you believed the media, you'd think that an American couldn't go past the border without being killed in the name of some hate-mongering group.

JamnOne
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.22 22:24:00 - [228]
 

Edited by: JamnOne on 22/08/2008 22:31:00
Check it out...

lvl 4 qty 20 agents for the Amarr Navy are only in low sec and pay awesome amounts.

Why am I saying this? No idea. Maybe because you can only find lvl 4 qty 20 agents in lo sec.

Something else to think about for those who do the isk/hour comparison of level 4 mission runners...Most of us only play for a couple of hours at night maybe enough to get one or two missions in. Even then, we don't run missions 7 days a week.

In other words - Chill Out!

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.08.22 22:47:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Dave Davies
they're "dumb" and you're not. I mean, how could it be otherwise?


That is right my friend.

Kransthow
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.08.22 22:57:00 - [230]
 

How to fix the problem of high sec lvl 4 missions

Dynamic agent quality.

Highly used agents decrease in quality, seldom used increase in quality

Missions limited resource.

Agents give out (x) number of missions every hour, agent quality perhaps effects x

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.08.22 23:01:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Kransthow
How to fix the problem of high sec lvl 4 missions

Dynamic agent quality.

Highly used agents decrease in quality, seldom used increase in quality

Missions limited resource.

Agents give out (x) number of missions every hour, agent quality perhaps effects x


Give this man a medal.

Praleon
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.08.22 23:10:00 - [232]
 

Problem: Level 4 missions provide large sums of wealth, and someone doesn't like it.

Why: Someone wants more PVP action, and would rather those who earn large sums of money be put in peril.

Why: So he can destroy them and take their things rather than them continually get things forever.

This cannot be solved with the current implementation of EVE. Removal of level 4 missions would significantly destroy the chief revenue of a large number of players. People would have to mine again. Mining is boring, and they will quit. Whereas now, someone can lose a ship in PVP and replace it with a couple hours of mission running, in the proposed future you make, people would have to mine for many, many hours to replace losses.

This would only lead to less PVP in the long run.

If you want more PVP, the PVP must be made differently, from the ground up. High SP + T2 modules are nigh-insurmountable on a 1 vs 1 basis for someone who can either just barely fit T2, or must rely on named. Check your DPS, Range, and Effective HP capacities in EFT.

There must be a way to find competition near a hi-sec person's level, or, no easily campable chokepoints into 0.0, if you want more people to fight PVP. As it stands, the path of "getting into PVP effectively" takes months and months of training, OR, large numbers of people.

Not only do people lose ships and ISK in EVE, but for many players, the time loss is problematic. This could be addressed as well, to facilitate moving out of hi-sec.

If and when there is incentive to come out and fight balanced PVP, people will do so. Until then, it's blob vs. blob for 0.0.

I, myself, am not a hi-sec life person. You won't find a single empire standing above 4 on my character sheet, nor will you find a bunch of industrial mining skills.

I only post this to counter the assertion that level 4 missions should be moved out into lowsec, as I think this would just cause a bunch of people to either A) Quit EVE, or B) still never leave hi-sec.

Dave Davies
Posted - 2008.08.22 23:13:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Dave Davies
they're "dumb" and you're not. I mean, how could it be otherwise?


That is right my friend.


Life is not worth living without our pet delusions. You go. Cool

Ogier
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2008.08.22 23:50:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: Ogier on 22/08/2008 23:53:17
Personally you want to make isk per hour then do lev 3s. roughly a 1.8:1:

Ok if you want LPs

but for pure isk per min.. then lev 3 s way to go.


just me no one else

However I just do them for a bit of fun as my online time is limited


kindest regards n stuff


5pinDizzy
Amarr
Pillow Fighters Inc
Posted - 2008.08.23 00:17:00 - [235]
 

Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 23/08/2008 00:20:47
Can the "you only want to nerf highsec so lowsec people get more pvp" get a clue and shutup please.

Can the "move all level 4 agents to lowsec, fixed" people do the same, ain't going to happen.

I've also done lowsec missions before and they don't give double highsec missions, they don't really even give 120% more.

If lowsec missions really did give double the bounty and mission reward that would be enough incentive to go and do them for me personally.


Currently lowsec is a deadzone because the agents are obsolete and the minerals are obsolete.

I couldn't give a stuff if one of you highsec people are given an incentive to go to lowsec or not.

Personally I want an isk related incentive in lowsec for my own personal goals, so I can go below -5 security level and still get by without getting barbecued on a nullsec bottleneck or having to metagame and use a mission running alt.

I'm sure I'm not alone on this.



Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.23 00:27:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 23/08/2008 00:20:47
Can the "you only want to nerf highsec so lowsec people get more pvp" get a clue and shutup please.

Can the "move all level 4 agents to lowsec, fixed" people do the same, ain't going to happen.

I've also done lowsec missions before and they don't give double highsec missions, they don't really even give 120% more.

If lowsec missions really did give double the bounty and mission reward that would be enough incentive to go and do them for me personally.


Currently lowsec is a deadzone because the agents are obsolete and the minerals are obsolete.

I couldn't give a stuff if one of you highsec people are given an incentive to go to lowsec or not.

Personally I want an isk related incentive in lowsec for my own personal goals, so I can go below -5 security level and still get by without getting barbecued on a nullsec bottleneck or having to metagame and use a mission running alt.

I'm sure I'm not alone on this.



Preach it, sista!

I'm looking into losec territories myself. Tired of hisec. Probably just ramp-run level 3's, and I've got a couple nice options.

Bigger question is, are there any corps that fly out of Aridia or Genesis? You can convo me in game if you don't want to release details, but it looks pretty damn empty to me.

Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.08.23 00:28:00 - [237]
 

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!

NERF LEVEL 4 MISSIONS!




(Some people think that if you say it enough you can gain mind control over CCP and make them bow to your will. Let's see if it works.)



James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.23 00:32:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Kransthow
How to fix the problem of high sec lvl 4 missions

Dynamic agent quality.

Highly used agents decrease in quality, seldom used increase in quality

Missions limited resource.

Agents give out (x) number of missions every hour, agent quality perhaps effects x


This would be good, and something I have been lobbying for. I don't mind mission running in highsec. I do it myself from time to time (ok, not so much recently, but ...).

I do mind that I spenta while doing so in a 0.3, and ... actually only marginally making more - the majority of mission pay is 'about the same' as it's bounties and loot.

*shrug*. I would love people to be deciding whether they should be missioning in that clump of 4 'caldari navy' agents over there, with easy access to the hub, or whether it's worth their time decamping to an agent over in minmatar space, because he pays better.

I feel dynamic quality level is the only true solution - it's otherwise impossible to assess how 'good' a mission system is, as there's just so many factors. What it would also do is mean you _don't_ have a 'superhub' like you do in motsu at the moment - people would spread out.

Mire Stoude
The Undesirables
Posted - 2008.08.23 03:15:00 - [239]
 

tl;dr

Please organize your whines and compress them into 2-3 lines tops.

Deckert
Caldari
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2008.08.23 04:01:00 - [240]
 

All I can say is get a life man. Missions in general have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again. In 0.0 space making isk is far better than L4's ever will be thanx to the last big nerf that ccp did to L4's. Hell all missions in general were nerfed hard core. The bounties got droped down too way under 1mil more like 850k down too around 250k and thats for a battleship. Only way a battleship npc is above the 1mil mark is most likely a faction battlship. (Though I have seen bounties larger than that but only in 0.0 space doing missions for the pirates corps). CCP also nerfed the loot drops and nerfed the salvage from the wrecks as well. If CCP nerfs L4's anymore then doing mission would be a complete waste of time and CCP would loose money cause people would start to quite the game. So I would suggest you stop fricken whining and get over it. Cause people like you need to quite eve and go join WOW or something.

On a side note probing out plex's will more than worth peoples time cause they are more valuable than missions ever will be.


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