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Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.08.22 17:00:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette


Yes, we've been over this but you still don't get it. Those things you do are PvP activities. Missions are not. High sec PvE activities needs to be nerfed.



Why? Why do they need to be nerfed? You haven't come up with a single reason other than "risk v reward" and that argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Whether you consider what I do to be "PvP" or not, I DON'T GO BACKWARDS. Month after month, I turn a profit. I don't have any significant risk of going backwards either. If you're going to scream for nerfs based on "risk versus reward" you ought to be consistant.

You aren't, though. You're starting with what you want, and trying to justify it, rather than starting with a problem, and looking at solutions. Where's the problem you're trying to solve?

Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2008.08.22 17:04:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Bfoster
Edited by: Bfoster on 21/08/2008 21:21:26
They will just become macro miners, carebears will be carebears...

Real carebears don't post on the forums.
All the outrage about threads like this (where are the 193654324 threads about the topic? I've only seen 2 or 3...) is from alts of PVPers who do lvl4s so they can buy ships.

Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 17:09:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Galvatine

see there you go insulting people again

you called him a useless carebear, basically tarring everyone that fits that description with a bad brush, as well as trying to insult him.

Think you go better check your own IQ mate, as being prejudiced is normally the sign of being a bit low on that old quota


No, you asked me when it became a crime to be a carebear. I never said that, so I asked you if you where low on IQ. Seems a perfectly relevant question, especially given your other posts.



i asked you when it was a crime to be a carebear, the context YOU used was "Useless carebear" implying that there is something wrong with being a carebear, something beneath you

You responded to me by asking me to check my IQ

I just pointed out that your rather blinkered attitude towards others was indicative of a tiny mind

My point stands up, yours fails

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.08.22 17:12:00 - [184]
 

This post has been cleared of inappropriate content.

Regards,
The EVE Online Moderation team

Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 17:13:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Anyone who doesn't think that isk making in high sec is broken because of no risk vs alot of reward is a re.tard.


clearly, and your evidence for this is what?

Your opinion being better than everyone elses?

Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.08.22 17:44:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: SurrenderMonkey

...



Hi. You're stupid. I bolded the exact statement that identifies you as stupid.

This statement makes you stupid because in several cases, it actually defies logic. Take, for instance, trading. You simply won't make as much money trading in low or null sec as you will in high sec because there aren't enough people to work in volume. You might pull better margins, but the ease of travel guarantees that you will never be able to increase margin to a point where you can beat out volume trading in a high sec trade hub, because at a certain profit margin (FAR beneath where you would need it to be), your buyers will simply go to high sec and buy it cheap. That's not even getting into the hassles involving logistics (and the time consumed, too).

Thus, without some form of wholly illogical mechanic (ludicrous taxes/fees, etc.) implemented to ensure that a wholly illogical circumstance comes about (all low-sec activity is more profitable than high-sec), some high-sec activities will always be more profitable.

This fairly well cuts the support out of arbitrarily making the best high sec activities worth only "75% of ratting in the worst 0.0 system".

Pro-tip: A good trader will make VASTLY more than that 10 million per hour you cite for bad null sec. Without ever undocking, at that.

Additionally, let's look a bit more closely at the aforementioned stupid statement: "I think that it should never be possible to make more ISK in highsec than a similar activity in low or null sec," as well as the statement that followed it: "Therefore, L4 missions should be balanced to be about 75% of the ISK you can make [/b]ratting in the worst areas of 0.0."

It's interesting to note that you can, in fact, mission in 0.0 space. Since you're sounding off about similar activities, I would say that mission running is much more similar to...well, mission running...than ratting is to mission running. About the only way mission running and ratting are similar is that both involve shooting things, which is fairly poor criteria.




Hi. You're stupid.

I fail to add 'except for trading' (which is basically highsec PvP anyway), and you use that as an excuse to refute my perfectly valid argument. I just assumed you'd be intelligent enough to realise the HUGE difference between trading (where you're basically betting on market changes and putting billions of ISK on the line), and missions (Where you're pressing F1-F8 for a while and making 20 mill or more per hour with NO RISK of losing anything as long as you have a clue). Sorry for assuming you were vaguely capable of basic reasoning.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.08.22 17:46:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Galvatine
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Anyone who doesn't think that isk making in high sec is broken because of no risk vs alot of reward is a re.tard.


clearly, and your evidence for this is what?

Your opinion being better than everyone elses?


EVE is a game based on contention. In many ways, it's a strategy and resource management game.

The market, for example, is a place where players contend - the good ones get rich, the bad ones lose out.

Mining is a realm where players contend - belts get mined out.

In fact, there's a whole lot of activities that involve players competing for resources. The good bit is, that the activites don't have to be balanced, as the better something is, the more people want it. If you've got a nice highsec asteroid belt, it's acutally worth your time trying to control it.

If you've got a nice promethium moon in lowsec, it's worth fighting for. Things like that. EVE is a violent playground, where there's a few toys to play with, but the best ones are fought over, because that too, makes a game fun.

I mean, easy diminishes a challenge, right?

So anyway, the assertion is that things that people are prepared to compete for, should be worth more - that's what drives people to do so, and auto-balances it - populations shift according to resource availability, and time and effort involved in controlling it. That's what's _really_ meant in 'risk vs. reward' - it's the implicit statement that a riskier business _should_ net a reward, in proportion to the increased risks.

Market speculation is a really good example - you try and control a market, and buy ... every unit of trit in Citadel, and mark it up slightly. You're standing to make a huge profit doing so, but you're risking a very large amount of capital as people _will_ undercut you.

Now, the exception to all this, is mission running. There is an infinite supply of missions from wossname over in Motsu - it's the highest quality level agent available, and ... well, everyone clumps there because there is quite literally no reason to use any lower quality agents.

Mission running is an infinite resource, that's essentially a straight time -> money conversion. It places a lower bound on 'profitability' all across EVE as 'I can make that much running L4s'. There's HUGE areas of 0.0 and lowsec that are worthless as a result - why, when there's a big 'give isk' button in highsec, are you going to risk your ship ratting in lowsec? Or mining for that matter.

It's not that making money in highsec is problematic, and indeed it is and should be optional to 'go risky' and head into lowsec or 0.0. The problem is that the money generation is exempt from the 'usual' rules of EVE - that anything that is profitable, will be exploited and fought over until it's no longer profitable.

Victor Forge
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.22 17:50:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


This. Nerfing High-sec will just turn this game into "Lineage II in space". Moving Lvl 4 missions in space will just force people do 3 lvls missions in High-sec until they get bored and quit.

"Donīt fly what you canīt afford to lose".

Lower income due to High-sec nerfs and you will be able to afford less. People will take less risks if it takes longer time to replace their losses. If anything there will be even less people in low-sec.

Either buff low-sec to close 0.0 sec lvls or decrease the risk by buffing gate guns.

Kwedaras
Amarr
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.22 18:04:00 - [189]
 

hi again. as i can see, the most replies are by bitter trolls, who didnt even bother to read my whole post. Yes, its a wall of text but you cant make constructive post without reading it. As i have read there is one valid point : if ccp nerfs lvl4s people will switch to next most yielding profession. Just to point out, i have thought about this and forgot to add that if we nerf lvl4s to something like 5-7.5 mil per hour, we should nerf lvl3s in highsec too (i think about 4-6 mil/h). In fact all of the highsec professons should be balanced around this (except trading, as ccp cant control it). I am too drunk to reply to constructive posts, i will reply in the morning of the next day.
And to the people who are so bitter and are trying to troll, well, it just shows that you are afraid that CCP will take action on this issue. cya soon.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.08.22 18:07:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Victor Forge
Moving Lvl 4 missions in space will just force people do 3 lvls missions in High-sec until they get bored and quit.




The weak don't deserve to play a great game like eve. Let them quit if they are too stubborn to try a little more challenge for more isk/hour. Let them quit or rot in their lvl 3 missions.

You what the funny thing is? What do people that live in high sec and don't pvp do with all their isk? Why is it so important to make easy isk when you don't pvp?
If you pvp, why is it such a big deal to rat then?

I really don't get it. NERF HIGH SEC ISK MAKING.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.22 18:09:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Victor Forge
Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


This. Nerfing High-sec will just turn this game into "Lineage II in space". Moving Lvl 4 missions in space will just force people do 3 lvls missions in High-sec until they get bored and quit.

"Donīt fly what you canīt afford to lose".

Lower income due to High-sec nerfs and you will be able to afford less. People will take less risks if it takes longer time to replace their losses. If anything there will be even less people in low-sec.

Either buff low-sec to close 0.0 sec lvls or decrease the risk by buffing gate guns.


And yet, at one point in time those of us who lived in losec could easily afford our ships. Part of this was because we had an industrial base.

Industry guys go where the profit is. They are far more competitive than most combat PvPers, I feel. These guys often run three accounts, all with bardges. They'd be out there in our area mining their hearts out, paying frieghters to transport what they made and mined to trade hubs.

So we had the industrial undercurrent, who needed protection and was willing to pay for it. Who did they pay? Well, not every combat player is by default a pirate, and not every pirate is a griefer. Some just want combat, because they enjoy it! Anyhow, a couple mil in their pockets (garnered from corp taxes, btw), and they were happy to keep hostiles out of the zone. They were still gate camping, they were still getting a quick kill, but they were paid to do it. Win-win for them, and it also kept our 'competitors' from our belts.

Then the mission runners. Well, hell, you have industry guys making you stuff, and combat pirates hired to protect you ... why the hell not? It was fricking awesome! I could do missions all day, and the pay was killer.




But why was it like this? A couple reasons. One was that level 4 missions were harder, and required you to be in a group for most all of them. Another was that there was no salvage, no LP store (every now and then you'd get an 'offer', most of it junk).

Add to that, mining in hisec (unless it was the rare ice belt), was unprofitable as hell, so the industry guys had to go out if they wanted to make money in their profession.

So, yeah, living in hisec was very boring and left you poor as hell. Unless you were a trader or manufacturer. You went to hisec to trade goods, and on your way you'd pass a bunch of new players looking to join a good corp in losec for more money, and one or two old timers who refused to leave hisec anymore.

That was comfortable to me. This new system with half the playerbase in less than a quarter of all space seems bum. And with salvaging, LP store, and my skills, there's no damn reason for me to leave hisec unless I get with one of the corps in 0.0 with really good ratting. Otherwise, anything else I do takes too much work, and makes it not worth it.

So ... yeah. Just a different view of what we'd like EvE to be. The days when people were trying to get out of hisec, I look on with fond memories. And I ain't that damn old!

Bleh.

Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 18:10:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Galvatine
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Anyone who doesn't think that isk making in high sec is broken because of no risk vs alot of reward is a re.tard.


clearly, and your evidence for this is what?

Your opinion being better than everyone elses?


EVE is a game based on contention. In many ways, it's a strategy and resource management game.

The market, for example, is a place where players contend - the good ones get rich, the bad ones lose out.

Mining is a realm where players contend - belts get mined out.

In fact, there's a whole lot of activities that involve players competing for resources. The good bit is, that the activites don't have to be balanced, as the better something is, the more people want it. If you've got a nice highsec asteroid belt, it's acutally worth your time trying to control it.

If you've got a nice promethium moon in lowsec, it's worth fighting for. Things like that. EVE is a violent playground, where there's a few toys to play with, but the best ones are fought over, because that too, makes a game fun.

I mean, easy diminishes a challenge, right?

So anyway, the assertion is that things that people are prepared to compete for, should be worth more - that's what drives people to do so, and auto-balances it - populations shift according to resource availability, and time and effort involved in controlling it. That's what's _really_ meant in 'risk vs. reward' - it's the implicit statement that a riskier business _should_ net a reward, in proportion to the increased risks.

Market speculation is a really good example - you try and control a market, and buy ... every unit of trit in Citadel, and mark it up slightly. You're standing to make a huge profit doing so, but you're risking a very large amount of capital as people _will_ undercut you.

Now, the exception to all this, is mission running. There is an infinite supply of missions from wossname over in Motsu - it's the highest quality level agent available, and ... well, everyone clumps there because there is quite literally no reason to use any lower quality agents.

Mission running is an infinite resource, that's essentially a straight time -> money conversion. It places a lower bound on 'profitability' all across EVE as 'I can make that much running L4s'. There's HUGE areas of 0.0 and lowsec that are worthless as a result - why, when there's a big 'give isk' button in highsec, are you going to risk your ship ratting in lowsec? Or mining for that matter.

It's not that making money in highsec is problematic, and indeed it is and should be optional to 'go risky' and head into lowsec or 0.0. The problem is that the money generation is exempt from the 'usual' rules of EVE - that anything that is profitable, will be exploited and fought over until it's no longer profitable.


Thats actually really well put

From that I presume the only fair way of going forward is to make these missions competative in some way, something I "could" side with, albeit with a certain amount of fear of ruining someone elses fun


Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.08.22 18:24:00 - [193]
 

Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 22/08/2008 18:26:03
Originally by: James Lyrus


It's not that making money in highsec is problematic, and indeed it is and should be optional to 'go risky' and head into lowsec or 0.0. The problem is that the money generation is exempt from the 'usual' rules of EVE - that anything that is profitable, will be exploited and fought over until it's no longer profitable.


Finally, comes an intelligent argument.

It is true that mission running does not fit the normal pattern of fininte, contested resource, whether that resource is a material, or access to a market.

It's pretty clear that L4 missions are a bone that the devs have thrown out there that allows PvE only types to feel rewarded for playing the game, and also allows "down on their luck" players a way to claw their way back up after some serious setbacks in a time frame that isn't so discouraging that quitting starts to look like a good option.

Unlike the rest of eve, that is based on free floating markets and the abiliy to provide security for yourself, how lucrative they are (relative to other stuff) is completely under dev control.

This allows the devs to outright decide how rewarding PvEing it is relative to everything else, and how tough, or easy, it will be for you to work your way back into the game after you lost your next-to-last BS trying to defend that patch of 0.0 you were trying to hold. Vets know better to lose that last one. It always sits in the hanger with a mission fit as an insurance policy against utter bankrupcy.

If you take that knob away, it's a bit of control that the devs won't have. It'll make it a lot more possible to run players you don't like right out of the game, instead of just "back to empire". That might be attractive for us, but probably not so much for CCP.


Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2008.08.22 18:30:00 - [194]
 

I will contribute absolutly nothing to this thread.

Me: Look Ma, there's a dead horse right here called "Level 4 Missions in High Sec". I Think I'll just stick this thread ups it's ass and beat it dead some more. Is that OK Ma?

Ma: Sounds good son. You just be home for dinner. Ya hear?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.22 18:41:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 22/08/2008 18:26:03
Originally by: James Lyrus


It's not that making money in highsec is problematic, and indeed it is and should be optional to 'go risky' and head into lowsec or 0.0. The problem is that the money generation is exempt from the 'usual' rules of EVE - that anything that is profitable, will be exploited and fought over until it's no longer profitable.




Finally, comes an intelligent argument.

It is true that mission running does not fit the normal pattern of fininte, contested resource, whether that resource is a material, or access to a market.

It's pretty clear that L4 missions are a bone that the devs have thrown out there that allows PvE only types to feel rewarded for playing the game, and also allows "down on their luck" players a way to claw their way back up after some serious setbacks in a time frame that isn't so discouraging that quitting starts to look like a good option.

Unlike the rest of eve, that is based on free floating markets and the abiliy to provide security for yourself, how lucrative they are (relative to other stuff) is completely under dev control.

This allows the devs to outright decide how rewarding PvEing it is relative to everything else, and how tough, or easy, it will be for you to work your way back into the game after you lost your next-to-last BS trying to defend that patch of 0.0 you were trying to hold. Vets know better to lose that last one. It always sits in the hanger with a mission fit as an insurance policy against utter bankrupcy.

If you take that knob away, it's a bit of control that the devs won't have. It'll make it a lot more possible to run players you don't like right out of the game, instead of just "back to empire". That might be attractive for us, but probably not so much for CCP.




Um, the fact that missions are an unlimited, non-contestable resource has been the root of the "nerf missions" position from the start - it's right there in my "how much is an agent worth" thread, for one thing. But never mind that, you understand where we're coming from and that's good... if there were mechanisms in place to encourage and reward contesting access to agents, then they'd be far less of an issue. As it is, the only incentive is lag. Anyway, that to the side...

Finally, comes an intelligent argument. Thank you for not just repeating the discredited "U EBIL GANKER JUST WANT MOAR TARGETS" rubbish again. Hi-sec missions as a safety net of last resort... I can understand that argument. I want to think about it some, if that's OK. The main objection that instantly springs to mind is that it's the vast minority of mission runners who are using them for this - the fiscal equivalent of setting a forest on fire in case a few people don't have heating for the winter, as it were.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2008.08.22 18:43:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Karentaki

...and missions (Where you're pressing F1-F8 for a while and making 20 mill or more per hour with NO RISK of losing anything as long as you have a clue).


Hey guess what, that's EXACTLY like ratting in 0.0. You press F1-F8 and, as long as you have a clue, you have NO RISK of losing anything. At all. Ever. I have never been hunted down while belt ratting in 0.0. Never. Not once. If you pay the slightest bit of attention you are never at any kind of risk.

The only difference is a pretty small degree of convenience, and even THAT is negated if you're an actual 0.0 resident in an alliance.

There's no CONCORD out there. That does not mean there's any genuine risk.

All this prattling on about how much more "hardcore" 0.0 space is is ****ing laughable to anyone who has ever been there, tbh.

If you're going to **********, why not do it in private instead of on the forums?

Atrei Capital
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:15:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Karentaki

...and missions (Where you're pressing F1-F8 for a while and making 20 mill or more per hour with NO RISK of losing anything as long as you have a clue).


Hey guess what, that's EXACTLY like ratting in 0.0. You press F1-F8 and, as long as you have a clue, you have NO RISK of losing anything. At all. Ever. I have never been hunted down while belt ratting in 0.0. Never. Not once. If you pay the slightest bit of attention you are never at any kind of risk.

The only difference is a pretty small degree of convenience, and even THAT is negated if you're an actual 0.0 resident in an alliance.

There's no CONCORD out there. That does not mean there's any genuine risk.

All this prattling on about how much more "hardcore" 0.0 space is is ****ing laughable to anyone who has ever been there, tbh.

If you're going to **********, why not do it in private instead of on the forums?


^

Also, don't tell them this. Let the carebears stay in highsec. I like it being less crowded while I make twice as much as they do.

Remember, Veldspar is the most profitable ore, no exceptions! You lose a ship every 15 minutes in 0.0!

Duncan MacPherson
Minmatar
Avatars of Ore
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:31:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Victor Forge
Moving Lvl 4 missions in space will just force people do 3 lvls missions in High-sec until they get bored and quit.




ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!


Yes I can see your point. I guess we should all do what you want us to do. I will undock tonight in my T1 frig with out guns, hold full of my BPOs and fly around in a straight line so you can hit me better. See you tonight!

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:44:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Duncan MacPherson
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Victor Forge
Moving Lvl 4 missions in space will just force people do 3 lvls missions in High-sec until they get bored and quit.




ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!


Yes I can see your point. I guess we should all do what you want us to do. I will undock tonight in my T1 frig with out guns, hold full of my BPOs and fly around in a straight line so you can hit me better. See you tonight!


Why do you need all that easy isk making in secure high sec if you don't pvp?

Duncan MacPherson
Minmatar
Avatars of Ore
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:47:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Duncan MacPherson
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Victor Forge
Moving Lvl 4 missions in space will just force people do 3 lvls missions in High-sec until they get bored and quit.




ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!


Yes I can see your point. I guess we should all do what you want us to do. I will undock tonight in my T1 frig with out guns, hold full of my BPOs and fly around in a straight line so you can hit me better. See you tonight!


Why do you need all that easy isk making in secure high sec if you don't pvp?


Because all the pretty ships you guys fly and lose in PVP come from the magical pixie dust fairy.

Besides who says mission runners don't pvp?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:47:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Duncan MacPherson
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Duncan MacPherson
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Victor Forge
Moving Lvl 4 missions in space will just force people do 3 lvls missions in High-sec until they get bored and quit.




ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!


Yes I can see your point. I guess we should all do what you want us to do. I will undock tonight in my T1 frig with out guns, hold full of my BPOs and fly around in a straight line so you can hit me better. See you tonight!


Why do you need all that easy isk making in secure high sec if you don't pvp?


Because all the pretty ships you guys fly and lose in PVP come from the magical pixie dust fairy.

Besides who says mission runners don't pvp?


Who says PvPers don't build ships?

Duncan MacPherson
Minmatar
Avatars of Ore
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:55:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Duncan MacPherson
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Duncan MacPherson
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Victor Forge
Moving Lvl 4 missions in space will just force people do 3 lvls missions in High-sec until they get bored and quit.




ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!


Yes I can see your point. I guess we should all do what you want us to do. I will undock tonight in my T1 frig with out guns, hold full of my BPOs and fly around in a straight line so you can hit me better. See you tonight!


Why do you need all that easy isk making in secure high sec if you don't pvp?


Because all the pretty ships you guys fly and lose in PVP come from the magical pixie dust fairy.

Besides who says mission runners don't pvp?


Who says PvPers don't build ships?


2 different ways of doing the same thing. So why is your way of doing something better than say mine? Because you say so? If that is the only reason then you have no valid point. If you say its the way the game is made - your wrong. Why would CCP have the lvl 4 missions set up to begin with? Fact of the matter is PVP folks who worry about empire huggers on a large majority want easy targets to kill. They want to feel big and tough in a video game because they can get 10 people together and gank some solo guy.

I know it kills you guys to know we are making money playing our own game and there isn't much you can do about it.

So why don't you go and enjoy your game and I will enjoy mine.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:55:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Duncan MacPherson


Because all the pretty ships you guys fly and lose in PVP come from the magical pixie dust fairy.

Besides who says mission runners don't pvp?


Uhm ship builders can mine or buy minerals and build ships. What has this to do with easy mode money making lvl 4s in high sec?

Mission runners do pvp but those aren't the people that are whining about how life is so hard if we'd remove lvl 4 missions from high sec.

Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:57:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Duncan MacPherson


I know it kills you guys to know we are making money playing our own game and there isn't much you can do about it.




No, it just kills us that no skilled people with the iq of a monkey can make more money then skilled pvpers living in dangerous space. Don't flatter yourself.

Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:57:00 - [205]
 

Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 22/08/2008 20:03:08
Originally by: Malcanis


Finally, comes an intelligent argument. Thank you for not just repeating the discredited "U EBIL GANKER JUST WANT MOAR TARGETS" rubbish again. Hi-sec missions as a safety net of last resort... I can understand that argument. I want to think about it some, if that's OK. The main objection that instantly springs to mind is that it's the vast minority of mission runners who are using them for this - the fiscal equivalent of setting a forest on fire in case a few people don't have heating for the winter, as it were.


The "safety net" is one aspect of it. The other is that they clearly intended for there to be a PvE only progression to the game.

From the day you start running level 1s in your noob ship, till you're doing your first level 4 in a BS is what? 4-5 months, most likely, that's playing a fair number of hours a week, and assuming you don't go the GTC sales route.

From that first level 4 in your first BS to grinding that high quality agent in your pimped out CNR is what? About 6-8 months, more or less sounds about right to me. Again, assuming you're playing a fair number of hours a week and not buying isk.

Then, that's it. You're 10-13 months into the game, and you have capped out that progression. By this time, if you aren't so sick of Angel Extravaganzas that you would rather put your eyes out with an ice pick than do another one, you need help IMO.

There isn't a lot you can do to progress farther than that in an NPC corp. You can sit in a station and trade, or build T1 stuff, or drive around in a freigher trading, but none of those is much of a step up from where you are, and just about as boring.

To progress any further in the game, you at the very least need to get into a player corp and open yourself up to war decs.

So, question is, should there be a PvE only progression in Eve at all, and if so, is the one above a reasonable one? To me, it seems like it is. About a year to cap out "feels" about right compared to other MMOs I've played.

If you say no, there should be no PvE only progression, that's a different story. You can do what you like with L4s at that point, because it won't really matter. If there is no PvE only progression, PvE only players will quit, or never start playing, and you'll only need to cater to PvP players, because they will be the only players you have.




Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:59:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Terror Rising
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Whoa dude. This isn't a wall 'o text contest, regardless of how the OP appeared.


What?

(followed by yet another WoT)




lol pure win.

Divad Ginleek
Gallente
New Eden Logistics and Trade.
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:04:00 - [207]
 

I read the first page, honest...

Like someone else pointed out, it is possible to make VASTLY more isk/hour sitting in Jita (or any other trade hub) and never undocking at all.

*ahem*

"OMFG!! NERF TRADE!!! MAKE ALL ITEMS BUILT AND SOLD BY NPC ONLY!!! MAKE EVE LIKE COUNTERSTRIKE SO I CAN PWNZORS EVERONE!!!!!1111one111."

Thank you for listening to my whine. That is all.

/sarcasm.

Duncan MacPherson
Minmatar
Avatars of Ore
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:07:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Duncan MacPherson


I know it kills you guys to know we are making money playing our own game and there isn't much you can do about it.




No, it just kills us that no skilled people with the iq of a monkey can make more money then skilled pvpers living in dangerous space. Don't flatter yourself.


Well this monkey just goes where the money is at. I have spent my time in null space in the wonderful blob lag fests waiting for the guy on voice to call out primary and if I am lucky I'm not called it and insta die. I have been on the gate camps waiting for some poor soul to be yanked out and popped.

One of the greatest myths is low sec and Null space is dangerous and it takes skill to live down there. It doesn't. Takes a monkey to keep local up and not jump from gate to gate directly. Takes a monkey to monitor the map and watch for trouble spots. For me at least grinding lvl 4 missions is alot more fun than avoiding the old alliances that own null space with zero chance of anyone new breaking in.

Point blank I go where the money is at. They nerf lvl 4s in empire I will just move on to 3s. Why? Because thats where the isk is. Adapt or log off.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:09:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 22/08/2008 20:03:08
Originally by: Malcanis


Finally, comes an intelligent argument. Thank you for not just repeating the discredited "U EBIL GANKER JUST WANT MOAR TARGETS" rubbish again. Hi-sec missions as a safety net of last resort... I can understand that argument. I want to think about it some, if that's OK. The main objection that instantly springs to mind is that it's the vast minority of mission runners who are using them for this - the fiscal equivalent of setting a forest on fire in case a few people don't have heating for the winter, as it were.


The "safety net" is one aspect of it. The other is that they clearly intended for there to be a PvE only progression to the game.

From the day you start running level 1s in your noob ship, till you're doing your first level 4 in a BS is what? 4-5 months, most likely, that's playing a fair number of hours a week, and assuming you don't go the GTC sales route.

From that first level 4 in your first BS to grinding that high quality agent in your pimped out CNR is what? About 6-8 months, more or less sounds about right to me. Again, assuming you're playing a fair number of hours a week and not buying isk.

Then, that's it. You're 10-13 months into the game, and you have capped out that progression. By this time, if you aren't so sick of Angel Extravaganzas that you would rather put your eyes out with an ice pick than do another one, you need help IMO.

There isn't a lot you can do to progress farther than that in an NPC corp. You can sit in a station and trade, or build T1 stuff, or drive around in a freigher trading, but none of those is much of a step up from where you are, and just about as boring.

To progress any further in the game, you at the very least need to get into a player corp and open yourself up to war decs.

So, question is, should there be a PvE only progression in Eve at all, and if so, is the one above a reasonable one? To me, it seems like it is. About a year to cap out "feels" about right compared to other MMOs I've played.

If you say no, there should be no PvE only progression, that's a different story. You can do what you like with L4s at that point, because it won't really matter. If there is no PvE only progression, PvE only players will quit, or never start playing, and you'll only need to cater to PvP players, because they will be the only players you have.






The PvE progression leads to 0.0, surely - 10/10 plexes and such.

Aarin Wrath
Caldari
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:13:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Aarin Wrath on 22/08/2008 20:16:15
edit: bah not worth it. This thread is all flames and toll bait, and has IMHO degenerated to the point of no longer offering content.


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