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Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 15:51:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette


It's just pretty ironic that useless carebears like yourself once again managed to whine themselves into a world of hurt. Brings back that whole jetcan-debacle Laughing

Of course, HICs aren't the reason for people staying out of low sec. It's another excuse for keeping their isk prints in high sec. I run around in low sec every day, and I have never once seens a HIC camp. Not once.



Whats ironic is you saying that in a whine thread written by a low sec player

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 15:52:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

Yes they are. Especially the ones above 40 millions per hour are indication of some good smoking stuff.


I believe the commonly quoted figure is 20-25 mil per hour.


Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

No it's not, by stopping the mission farming the possible income of the people doing it is greatly reduced. Also the risk involved in doing lv4s without high SP is bigger than the one is implied here.


Nope, not really. You may, if you're careless, lose one ship to missions. If you lose two, you're pretty damned stupid and shouldn't really be posting about it on the forums.

Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

Low sec is not bad now. And the real problem of low sec is not the low rewards but the current mechanics that put the pirates always in an advantageous position. Especially against pve ships.


No, it's the low rewards. This is evidenced by the fact that before high sec rewards where boosted more people used to live in low sec.

Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

Well i may be wrong, but i remember about a year or two ago, that this is what they did. Not doubling the rewards granted, but still they have the rewards increased for low sec missioning in comparison to high sec missioning. And they did remove most high quality lv4 agents from high security space.


They never paid double. They pay on average 25% more, I believe. And, no, theydidn't remove 'most' high quality level 4 agents from high sec. They're still there. Don't believe me? Go to Motsu/Auvergne/Irjunen/other places.

Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

That perceived safety is something that the Empires have also worked hard for according to the backstory, and whether you like it or not, this game has also a RPG element too.


So, the game should reward lazy people because the backstory says something or other? Do you realise that, in RP terms, if the Empires worked so hard to protect their space, there wouldn't be any pirates to shoot in your missions? Ok, let's go with the RP approach. That means removing all rats from high sec, so it has the same effect as my proposal.

Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

Not to mention that no matter what you say there is no 100% safety in high security space either. Everyone can bust a mission DS and kill the one doing it. Or steal from him by salvaging the wrecks, enjoying the same safety. Something that is not going to happen in low sec or 0.0, where the thief will be shot and/or podded.


Ok, 99% safe. Big difference?

Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

But we are not taking that into account, are we?


I am, but I'm not sure you are.

Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

Because there is that perceived safety, which helps people get rich very quick. The effect of the safety should be dumbing down the NPCs size and numbers, that cause trouble and force pod pilots to shoot them. (In RP terms this is true).



You are aware of the fact that percieved safety != actual safety, right? You are also aware of the amount of work to achieve this percieved safety? Finally, you are aware that the perception of 0.0 safety comes from Empire huggers.

Right?

RIGHT???

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 15:55:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Galvatine

Whats ironic is you saying that in a whine thread written by a low sec player


Explanation why level 4 missions need nerfing != a whine, just a FYI.

You might have this thread confused with one of the thousands of "OMG EBIL PIRATES SHOT ME SAVE ME CCP!!!" threads.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.08.22 15:56:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
It's just pretty ironic that useless carebears like yourself once again managed to whine themselves into a world of hurt. Brings back that whole jetcan-debacle Laughing


Nice ad hominem. Comments like these is what discourages me from having mature conversations with you.

Quote:
Of course, HICs aren't the reason for people staying out of low sec. It's another excuse for keeping their isk prints in high sec. I run around in low sec every day, and I have never once seens a HIC camp. Not once.


Nerfing high sec into the ground will not fix the problem alone. There needs to be protection available for carebears in low sec. Obviously this protection needs to be in the form of player-oriented 100%, otherwise it defeats the purpose of low sec being just that, low sec. CCP needs to tune anti-piracy tools to balance the powers of piracy. As it stands there is not much distinction between piracy and anti-piracy. Incentives need to be created to allow the anti-piracy profession to flourish as much as piracy in low sec.



Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 15:56:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Galvatine

Whats ironic is you saying that in a whine thread written by a low sec player


Explanation why level 4 missions need nerfing != a whine, just a FYI.

You might have this thread confused with one of the thousands of "OMG EBIL PIRATES SHOT ME SAVE ME CCP!!!" threads.



no confusion, this thread is one of many over the last few weeks that have appeared as a result of teh changes to sec hit/concord.

Funny that I dont recall seeing so many before that...

Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 15:59:00 - [156]
 

There are some simple economics here

If you make making cash too hard in hi sec you play right into the hands of the illegal isk sellers

boring, repetative and uninteresting grinds to get cash nearly always result in a large amount of farmers as the normal players simply cant be ringed to do it


Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 15:59:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Galvatine

no confusion, this thread is one of many over the last few weeks that have appeared as a result of teh changes to sec hit/concord.

Funny that I dont recall seeing so many before that...


Perhaps you just ignored the ones that where there?

Perhaps they where drowned out by actual whines?

Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:00:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Galvatine on 22/08/2008 16:00:17
Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Galvatine

no confusion, this thread is one of many over the last few weeks that have appeared as a result of teh changes to sec hit/concord.

Funny that I dont recall seeing so many before that...


Perhaps you just ignored the ones that where there?

Perhaps they where drowned out by actual whines?



no the numbers are definitely up, and we all know why

edit : spelling

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:01:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Exlegion

Nice ad hominem. Comments like these is what discourages me from having mature conversations with you.


Come on, Exlegion, we've had enough debates against each other to try to mask the truth. You're pretty much as carebear as they come.

Originally by: Exlegion

Nerfing high sec into the ground will not fix the problem alone. There needs to be protection available for carebears in low sec. Obviously this protection needs to be in the form of player-oriented 100%, otherwise it defeats the purpose of low sec being just that, low sec. CCP needs to tune anti-piracy tools to balance the powers of piracy. As it stands there is not much distinction between piracy and anti-piracy. Incentives need to be created to allow the anti-piracy profession to flourish as much as piracy in low sec.



100% agreed.

Kelli Flay
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:01:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Galvatine

Whats ironic is you saying that in a whine thread written by a low sec player


Explanation why level 4 missions need nerfing != a whine, just a FYI.

You might have this thread confused with one of the thousands of "OMG EBIL PIRATES SHOT ME SAVE ME CCP!!!" threads.




You truly are a clueless noob.

But that is okay. Your kind provide me with delicious isk and the sort of forum drama not much less similar than a bunch of clowns at a kid's birthday party.

Carry on.

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:02:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Galvatine
no the numbers are definitely up, and we all know why

edit : spelling


I know why. It's because past forum events have taught us one thing. If you scream loud enough, you will get heard. This is us screaming. Doesn't mean it's whining, though.

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:02:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Kelli Flay
You truly are a clueless noob.

But that is okay. Your kind provide me with delicious isk and the sort of forum drama not much less similar than a bunch of clowns at a kid's birthday party.

Carry on.


Did you mean to quote someone else? Are you one of the EBIL PIEWATS? If not, how are you planning on getting my isk?

Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:02:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette


Come on, Exlegion, we've had enough debates against each other to try to mask the truth. You're pretty much as carebear as they come.




and being a carebear was made a crime when exactly?

his method of playing the game does not change his right to an opinion

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:04:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Galvatine
Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette


Come on, Exlegion, we've had enough debates against each other to try to mask the truth. You're pretty much as carebear as they come.




and being a carebear was made a crime when exactly?

his method of playing the game does not change his right to an opinion



Shocked

Low on IQ?

Please don't barge into discussions you don't understand.

Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:04:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Galvatine
no the numbers are definitely up, and we all know why

edit : spelling


I know why. It's because past forum events have taught us one thing. If you scream loud enough, you will get heard. This is us screaming. Doesn't mean it's whining, though.



Of course its whining, just as complaining about suicide ganks was/is

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:05:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Galvatine

Of course its whining, just as complaining about suicide ganks was/is


Guess we just have different defenitions of what constitutes whining.

Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:06:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Galvatine
Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette


Come on, Exlegion, we've had enough debates against each other to try to mask the truth. You're pretty much as carebear as they come.




and being a carebear was made a crime when exactly?

his method of playing the game does not change his right to an opinion



Shocked

Low on IQ?

Please don't barge into discussions you don't understand.



see there you go insulting people again

you called him a useless carebear, basically tarring everyone that fits that description with a bad brush, as well as trying to insult him.

Think you go better check your own IQ mate, as being prejudiced is normally the sign of being a bit low on that old quota

Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:08:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Galvatine

Of course its whining, just as complaining about suicide ganks was/is


Guess we just have different defenitions of what constitutes whining.



I consider both a whine
you consider what you dont agree with a whine

hmm yeah guess we are (thankfully) different

Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:15:00 - [169]
 


Turin
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:22:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Quote:
Risk vs Reward.


Stopped reading here. This is pretty much an infallible indicator that whatever the poster is on about, they're entirely full of ****.


This.

OP is a whiner. STFU and play.

Reptzo
Channel 4 News Team
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:22:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Micheal Dietrich
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


This

Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:22:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Galvatine
no the numbers are definitely up, and we all know why

edit : spelling


I know why. It's because past forum events have taught us one thing. If you scream loud enough, you will get heard. This is us screaming. Doesn't mean it's whining, though.



There isn't any doubt that low-sec mechanics need to be addressed, unless CCP really doesn't care, and they're content for low-sec to remain that place you have to travel through (sometimes) to get to 0.0, with a smattering of explorers, cap ship builders, and pirates in mostly empty space.

It's what you and the rest of the "nerf high-sec!!" crowd are proposing as a solution that's FUBAR.

Low sec needs a boost. Better ore yields, better rats, better exploration sites, more difference in agent quality compared to high-sec. But what it really needs is to get less risky to live in than big-alliance 0.0.

As long as it's more risky to live there, nobody will. They'll stay in high-sec, or jump to 0.0. If you nerf high sec, as the mechanics now stand, you'll just make 0.0 more attractive, not low-sec. We've been over and over this.

Low-sec sets up so that players must provide security, rather than NPCs. As the mechanics now stand, that's harder (much harder) to do in low-sec because you can't NBSI, and you can't deny your enemies docking rights. You notice that there aren't many NRDS alliances in 0.0 anymore. Wonder why?

Why are players going to go to where providing their own security is harder, when they can go to where it's easier, and more rewarding too?

In addition to a rewards boost, what low-sec must have are some mechanisms that put predatory pressure on pirates. Enough pressure so that the risks involved in living in low-sec are less than the risks of living in big-alliance 0.0. Rewarding (isk wise) professions need to be introduced that make their money preying on pirates. Bounty hunting, or some other forms of "law enforcement" professions that collect bounties by killing player pirates.

Until you balance the risk, and drop it below the risk of living in 0.0 napland, you can nerf empire all you want, and low-sec won't get more attractive.




Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:28:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Galvatine
no the numbers are definitely up, and we all know why

edit : spelling


I know why. It's because past forum events have taught us one thing. If you scream loud enough, you will get heard. This is us screaming. Doesn't mean it's whining, though.



There isn't any doubt that low-sec mechanics need to be addressed, unless CCP really doesn't care, and they're content for low-sec to remain that place you have to travel through (sometimes) to get to 0.0, with a smattering of explorers, cap ship builders, and pirates in mostly empty space.

It's what you and the rest of the "nerf high-sec!!" crowd are proposing as a solution that's FUBAR.

Low sec needs a boost. Better ore yields, better rats, better exploration sites, more difference in agent quality compared to high-sec. But what it really needs is to get less risky to live in than big-alliance 0.0.

As long as it's more risky to live there, nobody will. They'll stay in high-sec, or jump to 0.0. If you nerf high sec, as the mechanics now stand, you'll just make 0.0 more attractive, not low-sec. We've been over and over this.

Low-sec sets up so that players must provide security, rather than NPCs. As the mechanics now stand, that's harder (much harder) to do in low-sec because you can't NBSI, and you can't deny your enemies docking rights. You notice that there aren't many NRDS alliances in 0.0 anymore. Wonder why?

Why are players going to go to where providing their own security is harder, when they can go to where it's easier, and more rewarding too?

In addition to a rewards boost, what low-sec must have are some mechanisms that put predatory pressure on pirates. Enough pressure so that the risks involved in living in low-sec are less than the risks of living in big-alliance 0.0. Rewarding (isk wise) professions need to be introduced that make their money preying on pirates. Bounty hunting, or some other forms of "law enforcement" professions that collect bounties by killing player pirates.

Until you balance the risk, and drop it below the risk of living in 0.0 napland, you can nerf empire all you want, and low-sec won't get more attractive.






I'm not advocating a nerf to high sec in order to boost low sec. That's just a side effect. I'm advocating a nerf of high sec because it is completely imbalanced as it is now. Risk/Reward is the equation that should be used when it comes to game balance, as per CCP's own statements. Currently, Risk/Reward does NOT apply to high sec mission running. THAT'S what I want changed.

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:29:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Galvatine

see there you go insulting people again

you called him a useless carebear, basically tarring everyone that fits that description with a bad brush, as well as trying to insult him.

Think you go better check your own IQ mate, as being prejudiced is normally the sign of being a bit low on that old quota


No, you asked me when it became a crime to be a carebear. I never said that, so I asked you if you where low on IQ. Seems a perfectly relevant question, especially given your other posts.

Soporo
Caldari
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:35:00 - [175]
 

Poasting in a LowSec we need moar easy targets because we are too stupid or lazy or tough enough to go find them waaaaambulance thread.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:36:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Exlegion on 22/08/2008 16:36:32
Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
Originally by: Galvatine

see there you go insulting people again

you called him a useless carebear, basically tarring everyone that fits that description with a bad brush, as well as trying to insult him.

Think you go better check your own IQ mate, as being prejudiced is normally the sign of being a bit low on that old quota


No, you asked me when it became a crime to be a carebear. I never said that, so I asked you if you where low on IQ. Seems a perfectly relevant question, especially given your other posts.



Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
It's just pretty ironic that useless carebears like yourself once again managed to whine themselves into a world of hurt. Brings back that whole jetcan-debacle Laughing


Emphasis yellow. Mind you, I operate mostly in low sec and 0.0, rarely stepping foot on high sec.



Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:38:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Exlegion

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette
It's just pretty ironic that useless carebears like yourself once again managed to whine themselves into a world of hurt. Brings back that whole jetcan-debacle Laughing


Emphasis bold. Mind you, I operate mostly in low sec and 0.0, rearely stepping foot on high sec.





I feel like I'm getting lost here... where in that quote did I say it was a crime to be a carebear? Because... that's what I was replying to... ugh

Also, operating in low sec and 0.0 does not aquit you from being a carebear, Exlegion. For a start, you're in Hydra.

Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:43:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette


I'm not advocating a nerf to high sec in order to boost low sec. That's just a side effect. I'm advocating a nerf of high sec because it is completely imbalanced as it is now. Risk/Reward is the equation that should be used when it comes to game balance, as per CCP's own statements. Currently, Risk/Reward does NOT apply to high sec mission running. THAT'S what I want changed.



We've been over and over that too. I don't mission for a living. I research/invent/build/trade. I don't have a significantly higher risk of going backwards in the game than a L4 mission runner does. What I do requires more skill, and some money, but on the other hand I'm more richly rewarded too. A lot more. The extra reward I get cannot be justified by the extra risk I'm taking, compared to a mission runner.

If risk vs. reward is your mantra, at least be consistant. If you're going to advocate nerfing high-sec, dammit, advocate nerfing high-sec. Nerf the missions down to L2s and below. Nerf the markets to no more than 10 orders per player totaling no more than 100m, and T1 items only. Nerf manufacturing slots to T1 only. Remove high-sec POSes. Remove research agents over L2. Make it truly a "noob zone" and be done with it.

You'd end up with a different Eve. It would be a "PvP Mandatory" Eve that had no place for PvE only players.

Your problem, bud, is that you're playing us for stupid, and you don't think we see it. Trust me, you aren't that smart. I get that you want those mission grinders to have to come to where they can be ganked. Everyone reading these endless whine threads gets that. Probably not going to happen.

It's a shame that what you're looking for isn't a low-sec boost. That, at least, would be productive, rather than just blatantly self-interested. Let it go, dude, enough is enough.




Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:47:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

We've been over and over that too. I don't mission for a living. I research/invent/build/trade. I don't have a significantly higher risk of going backwards in the game than a L4 mission runner does. What I do requires more skill, and some money, but on the other hand I'm more richly rewarded too. A lot more. The extra reward I get cannot be justified by the extra risk I'm taking, compared to a mission runner.

If risk vs. reward is your mantra, at least be consistant. If you're going to advocate nerfing high-sec, dammit, advocate nerfing high-sec. Nerf the missions down to L2s and below. Nerf the markets to no more than 10 orders per player totaling no more than 100m, and T1 items only. Nerf manufacturing slots to T1 only. Remove high-sec POSes. Remove research agents over L2. Make it truly a "noob zone" and be done with it.

You'd end up with a different Eve. It would be a "PvP Mandatory" Eve that had no place for PvE only players.

Your problem, bud, is that you're playing us for stupid, and you don't think we see it. Trust me, you aren't that smart. I get that you want those mission grinders to have to come to where they can be ganked. Everyone reading these endless whine threads gets that. Probably not going to happen.

It's a shame that what you're looking for isn't a low-sec boost. That, at least, would be productive, rather than just blatantly self-interested. Let it go, dude, enough is enough.






Yes, we've been over this but you still don't get it. Those things you do are PvP activities. Missions are not. High sec PvE activities needs to be nerfed.

Xevan Templar
Gallente
7th Batavian Squadron
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:47:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Xevan Templar on 22/08/2008 16:51:50
Originally by: Krxon Blade
Originally by: Mikal Drey

EVE whine generator
if you/anyone makes this spinable I'll give you 100mil



Spin-able EVE Whine generator
Donation is not necessary, but would be appreciated Very Happy



hehe nice! How did you do it anyway, with what programm? I'm an oldy when it comes to stuff like this. Smile

Originally by: Judas Jones
Edited by: Judas Jones on 22/08/2008 14:15:16
What an absurd topic that keeps poping up:Neutral

ArrowNew Players join the game, if there "carebears", they will mission run or mine (or both), if mission run, they plan on sticking with the game long enough to get into level 4's and do them at a good rate. This is revenue for ccp and further expansions/development.
ArrowOlder players like myself, have treid 0.0 space and decided the whole dodgy player Alliance politics smells too much like crap for me and thus use level 4's to gather isk whilst participating in FW (E.G.). This is revenue for ccp and further expansions/development.
ArrowA lot of Null Sec players will have high sec alts to offset iskies in big losses and to engage in empire isk *****ing when other methods are not availiable or not pratical (Wars, lag, camping etc...). This is revenue for ccp and further expansions/development.
ArrowPeople enjoy flying with people they know and trust, sometimes you find yourself solo and not in the mood to engage in something risky, you have trainned and invested in pew pew so you do some lvl 4's..This is revenue for ccp and further expansions/development.
ArrowThere is a portion of Eves population, NOT MACROMINERS, that simply do not want to be forced out of high sec and thus require things to do for themselves with options and room for growth. This is revenue for ccp and further expansions/development.
ArrowLevel fours themselves, is used by many as goal orientation and as part of the whole learning curve, It is a pillar of the whole PvE aspect of Eve which a lot of people do enjoy engaging in. This is revenue for ccp and further expansions/development.


Summs up most of it, qouted for justice


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