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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.09.01 00:04:00 - [1021]
 

Originally by: Exlegion
Quote:
Out of 223 posters:
37 Players agree with the OP.
153 Players disagree.
33 I couldn't determine whether they agreed or disagreed.

The bulk of posts came from:

Agree with OP (# of posts)

Maximillian Bayonette (89)
Ruze (84)
Gamesguy (62)
DigitalCommunist (36)
Malcanis (34)
Ki An (29)
Kahega Amielden (15)
Le Skunk (12)
Kwedaras (Also the OP) (11)
Tippia (11)

That's 10 players with 383 posts.

^^ Reason I posted, especially the bit above, is to show that in reality we're dealing with about 5 or 6 very vocal players passionately looking to change the game to conform to what they believe is balance. And there's about 2 to 3 (myself included Embarassed) a little less vocal trying to keep the status quo. My point is this thread is mostly noise and little signal. Interesting, no? :)



Game design isn't a democracy.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.09.01 00:22:00 - [1022]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Game design isn't a democracy.

You missed the point. I'm stating that the few screaming for change is just a very small *very* vocal minority. And game design shouldn't be based on how loud they scream either.



Ashlee Darksky
Minmatar
Forum Insurgency
Posted - 2008.09.01 00:32:00 - [1023]
 

Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Game design isn't a democracy.

You missed the point. I'm stating that the few screaming for change is just a very small *very* vocal minority. And game design shouldn't be based on how loud they scream either.



He's right! But sadly the old saying applies "the squeeky cog gets the oil" Rolling Eyes. If you think you can get rich doing L4's then do them to fund a capital, then when it pops, do them again to fund it - you'll soon see that it isn't true!

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.09.01 00:36:00 - [1024]
 

Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Game design isn't a democracy.

You missed the point. I'm stating that the few screaming for change is just a very small *very* vocal minority. And game design shouldn't be based on how loud they scream either.



Do you honestly feel that the more we post for, or you post against, it'll have an effect on what CCP does?

While I do enjoy an argument now and again, I'm under no illusions that anything said after the op will have MAJOR impact. If anything, I do hope that some of the nay and yay posts are read by the developers, simply so that if they DO consider the whole issue to be a problem, they won't take the drastic measures some post.

Meanwhile, I think far too many have it in their heads that if they can rack up posts, using alts or telling their buddies, they can somehow keep a change from happening. CCP ain't released no information for or against this.

But while you have it in your head that it's a vocal minority, that's fine. If it helps you convince yourself that CCP wouldn't listen to something that many believe has a profound effect on gameplay, and could be done better ... fine.

Personally, I would be damn disappointed if CCP didn't at least take a glance at something that only a single player complains about.

I don't put much stock in minorities or majorities. That's one of the reasons I'm glad the country I live in is a Republic, and not a Democracy. The 'majority' opinion can often leave issues out that severely effect the few, just because it would hamper the many or provide a slight inconvenience.



CCP probably won't change sh*t, and believes that missions are working as intended. But let's not fool ourselves that anything we say in these or any other posts has a significant impact. Poll the crowd all you will, but the day that CCP goes from being a high-quality product for a niche playerbase, to being a mainstream product for the lowest common denominator, is the day you can have all of EvE to yourself.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.09.01 00:40:00 - [1025]
 

Quote:

CCP probably won't change sh*t, and believes that missions are working as intended. But let's not fool ourselves that anything we say in these or any other posts has a significant impact. Poll the crowd all you will, but the day that CCP goes from being a high-quality product for a niche playerbase, to being a mainstream product for the lowest common denominator, is the day you can have all of EvE to yourself.




We'll see in a bit. CSM Ank compiled a big list of issues/concerns with missions (Which ranges from them being boring/uninteresting to them being too lucrative in hisec). The issue got raised and I believe this means that they're going to bring up the issue with CCP and they're going to address it.

So basically we'll see CCP's stance on it at some point.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2008.09.01 01:34:00 - [1026]
 

Originally by: Ruze
That of course is YOUR opinion. Several other posters opinion is that there IS a problem. Nothing wrong with having different opinions, but it would be nice to submit a reasonable suggestion for a fix or change, instead of just complaining about a problem.


You bleat and whine like a stuck pig about how mission-runners are a problem, but then fail to provide any problem statement.

Why are mission-runners a problem? How are they impacting upon your gameplay?

Are they competing with you for production of meta level 1 items (ie: unnamed T1)? The solution is not to nerf missions, the solution is to remove unnamed T1 loot from NPCs.

Are they competing with you for money? Nerfing missions because mission-runners make too much money would then mean CCP would have to nerf trading, manufacturing, invention, ratting, etc.

Are they lagging out your favourite missioning hubs? Nerfing missions will nerf you too. The better solution is dynamic agent quality, so that people looking for LP rewards will move to less populated hubs. For people like me, where the agent reward and early completion bonus form about 20% of the total value of most missions (or 100% of missions like Recon (1 of 3)), that carrot/stick is enough to make me move systems (as if lag wasn't enough of an issue already).

You have no argument, you only bleat and whine. The simplest explanation is that with suicide ganking nerfed, you have to find something else to bleat and whine about. I don't for a second believe that you are stupid enough to think that mission-runners would actually move to lowsec or nullsec if the missions moved out there. After all, most of the big-earning mission-runners I know are nullsec alliance pilots who have a marauder parked out in hisec to make up the ISK they need to keep up their PvP habit (that, and missioning in hisec is relaxing to them since they don't have to be on gate patrol or constantly watching intel channels).

In the meantime, I'm sitting here with my Drake, with only a few skills up to level 5. Mission-running for ISK is all that's keeping me in the game at the moment. I can't afford to throw cheap frigates into PvP - I just don't have the ISK flow at this point in time to support it.


Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.09.01 01:47:00 - [1027]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Ruze
That of course is YOUR opinion. Several other posters opinion is that there IS a problem. Nothing wrong with having different opinions, but it would be nice to submit a reasonable suggestion for a fix or change, instead of just complaining about a problem.


You bleat and whine like a stuck pig about how mission-runners are a problem, but then fail to provide any problem statement.

Why are mission-runners a problem? How are they impacting upon your gameplay?

Are they competing with you for production of meta level 1 items (ie: unnamed T1)? The solution is not to nerf missions, the solution is to remove unnamed T1 loot from NPCs.

Are they competing with you for money? Nerfing missions because mission-runners make too much money would then mean CCP would have to nerf trading, manufacturing, invention, ratting, etc.

Are they lagging out your favourite missioning hubs? Nerfing missions will nerf you too. The better solution is dynamic agent quality, so that people looking for LP rewards will move to less populated hubs. For people like me, where the agent reward and early completion bonus form about 20% of the total value of most missions (or 100% of missions like Recon (1 of 3)), that carrot/stick is enough to make me move systems (as if lag wasn't enough of an issue already).

You have no argument, you only bleat and whine. The simplest explanation is that with suicide ganking nerfed, you have to find something else to bleat and whine about. I don't for a second believe that you are stupid enough to think that mission-runners would actually move to lowsec or nullsec if the missions moved out there. After all, most of the big-earning mission-runners I know are nullsec alliance pilots who have a marauder parked out in hisec to make up the ISK they need to keep up their PvP habit (that, and missioning in hisec is relaxing to them since they don't have to be on gate patrol or constantly watching intel channels).

In the meantime, I'm sitting here with my Drake, with only a few skills up to level 5. Mission-running for ISK is all that's keeping me in the game at the moment. I can't afford to throw cheap frigates into PvP - I just don't have the ISK flow at this point in time to support it.




This is from two of my posts, a little further down. Of course, this is only the recent time I listed some of the problems argued against. About two pages before, I include several arguments against hisec missions, as well as arguments against changes to hisec missions, as well as proposed changes.

And yes, at the moment, I do a whole lot of missions. As you have pointed out so succinctly, much of my own income would indeed be nerfed. As it stands, I personally feel it's necessary and the right thing to do, but I think the exact means needs a real combover.

So, not bleating and whining, as I ain't a sheep. Thanks for the insult, though. I'm sure it made you feel slightly better, somehow. Anything I can do to help Wink

Originally by: Ruze

I listed a lot of the complaints up above, including the old feeling of 'natural progression' from hisec to nulsec. And the lag that grows exponentially with each new player in a system. And the market imbalance from grinding missions and selling LP items and loot. And the mineral imbalance of losec over veldspar, or reprocessed 'junk' loot. And the lack of significant setbacks with each ship loss, further causing the stagnant nature of nulsec and boosting losec piracy.

No one suggestion wins them all, and many cause more problems. Like moving all 'insert level here' missions to losec, etc, etc. And many support specific ones for personal agendas, like wanting LP to be rewarded only in losec, inflating the cost of faction items again.

But at least suggestions and reasonings have been proposed. It's just cutting through all the forum PvP here, like a particular poster above participates in.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2008.09.01 02:13:00 - [1028]
 

It's quite pathetic to complain about missionrunning in high-sec tbh.

Myself being combat oriented and someone who never really focused on industrial aspects, nor NPCing, I still find myself and/or friends making alot more money ratting in 0.0 or - which is quite common tbh - run multiple accounts gangratting in 0.0, stripping systems. Can on top of my head name a bunch of semi-casual players that easily pulls out a bil a week just mining, safely, in one 'home system' in 0.0. Then we're not even touching the plexfarmers that can make multibillions a day, if they're organized and experienced enough.

Pulling 1bil weekly in highsec lv4 is roughly what I do right now, partly because of 0.0 lagfests and partly because I'm in a heavy training period and need a break from dull stuff. Partly because I recently left 0.0.

Point being; lv4 isk-making is a **** in the ocean compared to plexing and multi-account mining. Considering the potential of buying GTC's with isk you can basicly support the isk for all those 3-5 accounts by just some days mining. That'll take more than a day running lv4's.

If you need to whine about something, you should rather complain about how lousy the lowsec payoff for lv4's are. They need an incentitive if anything.

Empire mining would probably be on par with lv4 missionrunning if it wasn't for macromining, so in that sense, and considering new ships (Hulk), skills, experience etc.. the Empire-iskmaking is pretty much setting a decent standard for what the minimum income is. The maximum is set by the 0.0 inhibitants. If they fail to deliver, it's their own fault. It's currently low sec that needs some overhaul.

Strom Kryos
Gallente
Posted - 2008.09.01 02:28:00 - [1029]
 

Edited by: Strom Kryos on 01/09/2008 02:33:35
While I dont agree with everything you have to say, I respect that your backing it up with more than a non substancial reasons, I just wanted to point out a few things.

Especially in the longer threads.. there will always be those without a head on their shoulders. I know it's hard when they call you out like a teenager not to defend yourself, I generally ignore them or at most keep the replies short, ask them to reread the post or provide something to the conversation to get their reasoning for even posting in the first place.

I realize things are different than they were before and low sec is going to go under a bigger change when ccp rolls out the low sec type monarch or some such and some items touched in this Dev Blog

But one thing that will never change is the time wasted replying to those who cant communicate in a mature fashion. I'm sure the devs are more likly to dismiss posts like that also. Repling to those posts, your not going to get them to accept or respect your view and your just going to get more frustrated.

That was for Ruze .. I hate to see someone bother with extra frustration. Seen some rather childish stuff in this thread but he's kept pointing out his thoughts instead of calling names back.. for the most part:p

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.09.01 02:39:00 - [1030]
 

Originally by: Strom Kryos
Edited by: Strom Kryos on 01/09/2008 02:33:35
While I dont agree with everything you have to say, I respect that your backing it up with more than a non substancial reasons, I just wanted to point out a few things.

Especially in the longer threads.. there will always be those without a head on their shoulders. I know it's hard when they call you out like a teenager not to defend yourself, I generally ignore them or at most keep the replies short, ask them to reread the post or provide something to the conversation to get their reasoning for even posting in the first place.

I realize things are different than they were before and low sec is going to go under a bigger change when ccp rolls out the low sec type monarch or some such and some items touched in this Dev Blog

But one thing that will never change is the time wasted replying to those who cant communicate in a mature fashion. I'm sure the devs are more likly to dismiss posts like that also. Repling to those posts, your not going to get them to accept or respect your view and your just going to get more frustrated.

That was for Ruze .. I hate to see someone bother with extra frustration. Seen some rather childish stuff in this thread but he's kept pointing out his thoughts instead of calling names back.. for the most part:p


I can appreciate that, and agree with your sentiments about useless replies. In my own defense, I've more than once noticed someone reply in bad temper, a little insulting or condescending, and then a few posts later, you realize that you both agree in general terms, and it's the specifics you don't meet on.

I do try to give a little doubt that a person is just having a bad day or reading the wrong posts. Cause let's be honest, the insults fly both ways. It ain't hard to alienate another with a wrong word or turn of phrase ...

Trathen
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.09.01 03:42:00 - [1031]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
I can't afford to throw cheap frigates into PvP - I just don't have the ISK flow at this point in time to support it.




Huh? Even a single level 3 mission will fund a handful of rifters.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.09.01 03:49:00 - [1032]
 

Originally by: Trathen
Originally by: Mara Rinn
I can't afford to throw cheap frigates into PvP - I just don't have the ISK flow at this point in time to support it.




Huh? Even a single level 3 mission will fund a handful of rifters.


I'm by no means a rich man, and sometimes I just prefer level 3's over 4's, but I can easily afford a weeks worth of FW in T1 frigates and tackler gear.

10 mil a week, and while sometimes I run out of that allowance a bit early ... bad luck and all considering, cause it sure as heck ain't the fact that I'm a crappy frig pilot Twisted Evil ... it's still only an hour of level 3's.

Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
Posted - 2008.09.01 04:08:00 - [1033]
 

It's not the frigates; it's the time spent. We miserly carebears are all about the wallet size. When we're being blown up in our useless t1 fit t1 frigs we're not churning out the ISKies.

Was swinging through a minmatar FW area today. Lots of HICtors, HACs, inties. A few BSes. No doubt force recons were lurking close by. Yeah, a t1 fit t1 frigate would be lots of fun either with or against that... NOT.

Although a solo Malediction DID try and tackle me within sentry gun range. Watching him subsequently fail to tank sentries made me laugh so hard I kept missing the cloak button.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.09.01 04:12:00 - [1034]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 01/09/2008 04:12:13
Quote:


Was swinging through a minmatar FW area today. Lots of HICtors, HACs, inties. A few BSes. No doubt force recons were lurking close by. Yeah, a t1 fit t1 frigate would be lots of fun either with or against that... NOT.



Want to take a guess where all those pilots got the ISK for those expensive pwnboats?

Hint: it wasn't from hisec mining or exploration.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.09.01 04:24:00 - [1035]
 

Originally by: Clair Bear
It's not the frigates; it's the time spent. We miserly carebears are all about the wallet size. When we're being blown up in our useless t1 fit t1 frigs we're not churning out the ISKies.

Was swinging through a minmatar FW area today. Lots of HICtors, HACs, inties. A few BSes. No doubt force recons were lurking close by. Yeah, a t1 fit t1 frigate would be lots of fun either with or against that... NOT.

Although a solo Malediction DID try and tackle me within sentry gun range. Watching him subsequently fail to tank sentries made me laugh so hard I kept missing the cloak button.


It all is subject to what you consider 'fun', of course. While I do enjoy doing missions, I also enjoy a good fight against like or better opponents. And while my death ratio for that alt is far higher than my wins, it's not something that bothers me.

I have seen my share of T2 ships flying, but if you have a good group, you either have some of your own, or you outnumber them, or you don't engage at all. Not every group is 'good', no doubt, but sometimes it's as much about the confidence of the individuals as the record. As I ain't PvPing for some silly killboard statistic, I'm not too awfully bothered by a setback.

I don't know about the whole 'miserly' thing. I do believe that a lot of players who have never left hisec are far LESS likely to than a new player, simply because you get into a rut where you can use the biggest possible ship with the best fittings, and you really can't afford that loss.

Personally, I see this as one of the major flaws of hisec. Players convince themselves, or are convinced by hisec hippies who have never left the noob corps, that 'PvP is evil' and losec is full of 'wicked griefers who call themselves pirates'. Oh, and let's not forget the myth that 'I'm new, so I can't compete yet!'

A T1 ship can kill you as easily as a T2. Technically, sure, two equally skilled and able pilots would be unmatched against one another, with T2 coming out on top. But as long as you keep the math that 'so many sp is needed' or 'so much DPS' ... that's all just a load of bullsh*t, and an excuse.

Unlike many other MMO's, EvE PvP (be it market combat or ship-to-ship), is as much or moreso about the ability of the PLAYER, as it is about the skill points and equipment of the CHARACTER.

A confident player who knows his ship can kick *ss in a destroyer, for heaven's sake. He can't win every match, but he's smart enough to engage when he can, and to use whatever tactics and he knows his role in a gang.


Don't make yourself a fool, or cower within those high walls, without ever trying the rest of the world out for a try. Be you an EFT Warrior or a Killboard Cowboy, you are just building up a lot of nonesense, without any TRUE grasp of the situation.

Play a ship you like, fly a ship you can afford, and try and think beyond the numbers. You might be surprised how many T2 ships you can get your name on the killmails for in that T1 frigate.



By no means is this directed directly at Clair Bear, by the way.

Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
Posted - 2008.09.01 05:09:00 - [1036]
 

Originally by: Ruze

Personally, I see this as one of the major flaws of hisec. Players convince themselves, or are convinced by hisec hippies who have never left the noob corps, that 'PvP is evil' and losec is full of 'wicked griefers who call themselves pirates'. Oh, and let's not forget the myth that 'I'm new, so I can't compete yet!'


It could be that, I'm not a mind reader. Or it could be a simple calculus of:

1. The only damage you can do to another player is ISK
2. Therefore, ISK is the score of Eve
3. I make X isk in highsec with a nicely fit ship
4. I make 2/3 X isk in lowsec with a disposable crap ship, minus losses to constant docking and failed missions

(note: the above does not represent my view on the subject)

I don't know of a single one of those fear paralyzed carebears you speak of. But I do know many who subscribe to the above theory. All you have to do is see the hundreds PER HOUR dying in Rancer on a good day to realize it's not a fear that keeps newbies out of lowsec.

Quote:

A T1 ship can kill you as easily as a T2. Technically, sure, two equally skilled and able pilots would be unmatched against one another, with T2 coming out on top. But as long as you keep the math that 'so many sp is needed' or 'so much DPS' ... that's all just a load of bullsh*t, and an excuse.


Frigates at 10 paces is not how this works. You should realize how t2 ships which are months out of reach for new or industry players can drastically tip the scales of an encounter. DPS a small part of it -- throw anything less than a rat horde number of newbies at a decently organized nanorecon gang and all you'll get is a bunch of dead newbies. I'd take 5 to 1 odds in an encounter like that. Some of the better PvP corps have taken on 10 to 1 odds to come away with no losses -- not every FC is psychic enough to know what's about to decloak and jam them a new one.

Quote:

A confident player who knows his ship can kick *ss in a destroyer, for heaven's sake. He can't win every match, but he's smart enough to engage when he can, and to use whatever tactics and he knows his role in a gang.


Yes, Agony PvP class roams nullsec in a a frigate & destroyer blob (with covops scouts and a dictor) and bags some pretty impressive stragglers. But that's not a strategic victory, that's just... counterstrike in space.

We had a 14km/sec inty in our system a few weeks back piloted by a very experienced pilot. I don't care how many newbies in t1 frigates you throw at that, all he's gonna do is laugh at them and demonstrate proper spiraling technique and use of in-system bookmarks.

Quote:

Play a ship you like, fly a ship you can afford, and try and think beyond the numbers. You might be surprised how many T2 ships you can get your name on the killmails for in that T1 frigate.


Sure, because your experienced high SP teammates are flying a proper t2&faction fit counter. They're doing the work, you're just adding a tiny bit of DPS.

I mean, hell, I can bust out nearly 200 dps out of a freaking velator. If all I flew was that sooner or later I'd be bound to get on a KM...

I'm tired of hearing the "SP doesn't matter" mantra. If that were true we'd all be flying 800k SP combat alts. You need to be at least this ____ tall to properly combat fit. At that point it becomes primarily a numbers game. 5 falcons beat 2 falcons. 58 dreads + 100 support beat 3 dreads + 10 support. And so on.

Disclaimer: I've had a FW alt. At times I had so much fun I forgot about my carcass in a 0.0 belt. I have since become bored of it.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.09.01 05:59:00 - [1037]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Originally by: Exlegion
Quote:
Out of 223 posters:
37 Players agree with the OP.
153 Players disagree.
33 I couldn't determine whether they agreed or disagreed.

The bulk of posts came from:

Agree with OP (# of posts)

Maximillian Bayonette (89)
Ruze (84)
Gamesguy (62)
DigitalCommunist (36)
Malcanis (34)
Ki An (29)
Kahega Amielden (15)
Le Skunk (12)
Kwedaras (Also the OP) (11)
Tippia (11)

That's 10 players with 383 posts.

^^ Reason I posted, especially the bit above, is to show that in reality we're dealing with about 5 or 6 very vocal players passionately looking to change the game to conform to what they believe is balance. And there's about 2 to 3 (myself included Embarassed) a little less vocal trying to keep the status quo. My point is this thread is mostly noise and little signal. Interesting, no? :)



Game design isn't a democracy.


Pretty good overview. And that is why CCP always looks at the numbers and data themselves before anything is done. Anybody can use his 4 accounts and 12 characters on them to play mindgames with himself to make 'a point', but at the end of day there will be some devs going over hard data and deciding if the effect is in line with game design and either poke it a bit or not.

What crying real loud can do is making a dev 'look at it' to see if there is actually problem or not.

Rothrin
Posted - 2008.09.01 06:36:00 - [1038]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Ruze
That of course is YOUR opinion. Several other posters opinion is that there IS a problem. Nothing wrong with having different opinions, but it would be nice to submit a reasonable suggestion for a fix or change, instead of just complaining about a problem.


You bleat and whine like a stuck pig about how mission-runners are a problem, but then fail to provide any problem statement.

Why are mission-runners a problem? How are they impacting upon your gameplay?

Are they competing with you for production of meta level 1 items (ie: unnamed T1)? The solution is not to nerf missions, the solution is to remove unnamed T1 loot from NPCs.

Are they competing with you for money? Nerfing missions because mission-runners make too much money would then mean CCP would have to nerf trading, manufacturing, invention, ratting, etc.

Are they lagging out your favourite missioning hubs? Nerfing missions will nerf you too. The better solution is dynamic agent quality, so that people looking for LP rewards will move to less populated hubs. For people like me, where the agent reward and early completion bonus form about 20% of the total value of most missions (or 100% of missions like Recon (1 of 3)), that carrot/stick is enough to make me move systems (as if lag wasn't enough of an issue already).

You have no argument, you only bleat and whine. The simplest explanation is that with suicide ganking nerfed, you have to find something else to bleat and whine about. I don't for a second believe that you are stupid enough to think that mission-runners would actually move to lowsec or nullsec if the missions moved out there. After all, most of the big-earning mission-runners I know are nullsec alliance pilots who have a marauder parked out in hisec to make up the ISK they need to keep up their PvP habit (that, and missioning in hisec is relaxing to them since they don't have to be on gate patrol or constantly watching intel channels).

In the meantime, I'm sitting here with my Drake, with only a few skills up to level 5. Mission-running for ISK is all that's keeping me in the game at the moment. I can't afford to throw cheap frigates into PvP - I just don't have the ISK flow at this point in time to support it.




I like th cut of your jib, dont like the idea about agents changing q though, and as a level 4 mission runner and i dont loot friggs or cruisers, but i still get a lot of refine just from the ammo npc battleships drop.

Other then that.. i hope you stand for the mission runner csm in the next election.

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.09.01 06:58:00 - [1039]
 

Edited by: Gamesguy on 01/09/2008 07:07:39
Edited by: Gamesguy on 01/09/2008 07:00:46
Since everyone here seems to have their own opinion what ratting in 0.0 actually earns but no one is willing to provide any proof, I will.

This is just a random screenshot of my ratting char's wallet from 2 months ago when I was going through a ratting period. I was not chaining, this is ratting with one char using a fairly decent setup. The system is in delve with a true sec rating of better than -0.85. The system also had 10+ belts. I was alone the entire time.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2096/rattingpo1.jpg

Average isk/hour is 12.2mil. I don't salvage and looting only makes me kill slower. Over a period of about two weeks I got 400mil worth of faction items, with perhaps 40 hours of ratting total, boosting the isk/hour to about 22mil/hour.

You can see yourself the variations in isk/20 minutes from the screenshot, if I had chained, I would get one of the high "spikes", the highest isk/20 minute is actually from a dark blood spawn(which dropped no loot), the 2nd highest is 7.6mil, which was from killing 3x 1.85mil bs. 1x 1.7mil, and 2x 500k bs(and miscellenous crap). This I believe is near the top of what you will get for chaining, we'll call it 8mil/20 minutes.

So in a best case scenario for 0.0 ratting while chaining is about 24mil an hour, this is assuming you have access to a system that is basically in the top 10% of 0.0 and have it all to yourself. I know lots of mission runners that beat that in highsec.

Oh and the people saying the LP store was a nerf? You're an idiot.

I remember waiting two weeks for one of my agents to give me an offer that didnt cost more isk than the item would sell for. I had to stop running missions for that ****ing agent for two weeks because between my current LP range and the next decent LP offer range was a gap of like 300k LP. Yes juggling multiple agents helps, but you have to do this for every agent. Even then the best isk/LP back then were the book offers at 15k LP(extremely rare), and that only gave about 4-5k isk/LP, implants offers were around 2-3k isk/LP IIRC. You can get 2k isk/LP right now with the right items.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2008.09.01 08:32:00 - [1040]
 

Originally by: Shagrath Neptune

You obviously don't or haven't done missions.

Agent quality is a pretty minor detail really. LPs aren't worth what they used to be and the mission pay is laughable when compared to bounties.

People already run for subpar agents. i used to run for a less than optimal agent because he happended to be in a station which included a repair shop, Refinery and Manufacturing all in the same spot.

Not having to move stuff around and having everything under one roof > a few extra LPs and a bit more isk per mission.

I would say lvl 4's already had their nerf when they put in LP stores and the value of a LP went down significantly.


I have done a lot of missions. I know what I'm talking about. I get 9k isk per LP, so for me, LPs have increased in value (used to get around 1k per LP).

That the quality difference isn't all that great is 1: Wrong, as easily demonstrated by the fact that most people opt to cluster together to run as high quality agents as possible, and 2: Easily fixed by increasing the difference between different quality agents.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.09.01 10:21:00 - [1041]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Shagrath Neptune

You obviously don't or haven't done missions.

Agent quality is a pretty minor detail really. LPs aren't worth what they used to be and the mission pay is laughable when compared to bounties.

People already run for subpar agents. i used to run for a less than optimal agent because he happended to be in a station which included a repair shop, Refinery and Manufacturing all in the same spot.

Not having to move stuff around and having everything under one roof > a few extra LPs and a bit more isk per mission.

I would say lvl 4's already had their nerf when they put in LP stores and the value of a LP went down significantly.


I have done a lot of missions. I know what I'm talking about. I get 9k isk per LP, so for me, LPs have increased in value (used to get around 1k per LP).

That the quality difference isn't all that great is 1: Wrong, as easily demonstrated by the fact that most people opt to cluster together to run as high quality agents as possible, and 2: Easily fixed by increasing the difference between different quality agents.



Is he seriously trying to argue that the LP store was a mission income nerf?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.09.01 10:23:00 - [1042]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Originally by: Exlegion
Quote:
Out of 223 posters:
37 Players agree with the OP.
153 Players disagree.
33 I couldn't determine whether they agreed or disagreed.

The bulk of posts came from:

Agree with OP (# of posts)

Maximillian Bayonette (89)
Ruze (84)
Gamesguy (62)
DigitalCommunist (36)
Malcanis (34)
Ki An (29)
Kahega Amielden (15)
Le Skunk (12)
Kwedaras (Also the OP) (11)
Tippia (11)

That's 10 players with 383 posts.

^^ Reason I posted, especially the bit above, is to show that in reality we're dealing with about 5 or 6 very vocal players passionately looking to change the game to conform to what they believe is balance. And there's about 2 to 3 (myself included Embarassed) a little less vocal trying to keep the status quo. My point is this thread is mostly noise and little signal. Interesting, no? :)



Game design isn't a democracy.


My posts should count for triple because I'm too proud/lazy/stupid to alt-post in support of my own threads.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2008.09.01 11:02:00 - [1043]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Is he seriously trying to argue that the LP store was a mission income nerf?


Yes, and it's not just him. I have as much problem believing it as you, but I've just come to accept that some people can't count.

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2008.09.01 11:13:00 - [1044]
 

Edited by: Zey Nadar on 01/09/2008 11:13:21
Originally by: Kahega Amielden


Game design isn't a democracy.


But since game designers are trying to make the majority of players as happy as possible, it can be effectively considered a democracy if designers listen to players in the first place.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2008.09.01 11:20:00 - [1045]
 

Originally by: Gamesguy
You can get 2k isk/LP right now with the right items.



Yep, altho those 'right items' (ie ammo) have relatively limited ability to cash in LP, so one does not cash, say 200 000 LP / week in those without crashing the market.

Overall I'm content with LP store, at least there is good possibility of getting something worthwhile to sell instead of grinding up few million LP and declining 8x or 16x +5 cha implant offers over and over again waiting for the 'right offer'.

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2008.09.01 11:57:00 - [1046]
 

Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Gamesguy
You can get 2k isk/LP right now with the right items.



Yep, altho those 'right items' (ie ammo) have relatively limited ability to cash in LP, so one does not cash, say 200 000 LP / week in those without crashing the market.

Overall I'm content with LP store, at least there is good possibility of getting something worthwhile to sell instead of grinding up few million LP and declining 8x or 16x +5 cha implant offers over and over again waiting for the 'right offer'.


2k isk is nothing. As I said, I get around 9k isk per lp. I don't even crash the market when getting these sums, as the actual amount of stuff I move is pretty small. The LP store has opened up avenues for extreme wealth. It was a great boost to mission running.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.09.01 12:38:00 - [1047]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Gamesguy
You can get 2k isk/LP right now with the right items.



Yep, altho those 'right items' (ie ammo) have relatively limited ability to cash in LP, so one does not cash, say 200 000 LP / week in those without crashing the market.

Overall I'm content with LP store, at least there is good possibility of getting something worthwhile to sell instead of grinding up few million LP and declining 8x or 16x +5 cha implant offers over and over again waiting for the 'right offer'.


2k isk is nothing. As I said, I get around 9k isk per lp. I don't even crash the market when getting these sums, as the actual amount of stuff I move is pretty small. The LP store has opened up avenues for extreme wealth. It was a great boost to mission running.




And really, 2k/LP is quite something considering that, with my low social skills get up to 6000 LP for a mission that often takes about 30 minutes. (Pirate Invasion is a snap tbh). Yeah if I saved all the LP and turned them into CNRs to sell, I'd get very little. I don't.

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.09.01 12:45:00 - [1048]
 

Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Gamesguy
You can get 2k isk/LP right now with the right items.



Yep, altho those 'right items' (ie ammo) have relatively limited ability to cash in LP, so one does not cash, say 200 000 LP / week in those without crashing the market.

Overall I'm content with LP store, at least there is good possibility of getting something worthwhile to sell instead of grinding up few million LP and declining 8x or 16x +5 cha implant offers over and over again waiting for the 'right offer'.


2k isk is nothing. As I said, I get around 9k isk per lp. I don't even crash the market when getting these sums, as the actual amount of stuff I move is pretty small. The LP store has opened up avenues for extreme wealth. It was a great boost to mission running.



IIRC the high isk/LP offers take a ******ed number of tags, tags that are quite expensive on the market...

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2008.09.01 13:08:00 - [1049]
 

Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Gamesguy
You can get 2k isk/LP right now with the right items.



Yep, altho those 'right items' (ie ammo) have relatively limited ability to cash in LP, so one does not cash, say 200 000 LP / week in those without crashing the market.

Overall I'm content with LP store, at least there is good possibility of getting something worthwhile to sell instead of grinding up few million LP and declining 8x or 16x +5 cha implant offers over and over again waiting for the 'right offer'.


2k isk is nothing. As I said, I get around 9k isk per lp. I don't even crash the market when getting these sums, as the actual amount of stuff I move is pretty small. The LP store has opened up avenues for extreme wealth. It was a great boost to mission running.



IIRC the high isk/LP offers take a ******ed number of tags, tags that are quite expensive on the market...


That is somewhat true. They don't take that many, and I have already counted for my own expenses when I arrive at the 9k isk/lp.

Strom Kryos
Gallente
Posted - 2008.09.01 13:51:00 - [1050]
 

Lp store didnt nerf anything. It caused all the big ticket item to flood the market.. hence getting the navy bs and making 700 mil isk for months of endless lvl4 missions, now your lucky if you can sc**** 100 mil off it. Thats where others are complaining about it being nerfed. I feel its only a matter of time before everything on the lp store is completely flooded. I think the lp store should.. dare I say ROTATE stock month to month taking the items that have been accepted the most and making them unavailable for a month.


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