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Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.26 22:14:00 - [601]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Well, you're wrong. Drastic fixes are needed for drastic screw-ups.

Anyone who thinks battleship NPCs in empire isn't the latter is probably a witless newbie who joined long after EVE became easy.


How am I wrong? We are all entitled to our opinions. now, the DEVS, they can actually decide who is right and who is wrong (although that in itself is pretty fallacious.) However, I'll give you that bounties on NPCs in empire pushing past 200k each actually is pretty bad. Maybe not all battleships, (there can be worthless bounty battleships - see every player ship in lowsec and 0.0 Razz
and Join on January 17th, 2007. all I know is warp to 0, empire level 4 missions already being in existence, BoB and the Swarm fighting back and forth for politics. But I pay every month like everyone now, and this is August 26th, 2008. People change. so do expectations, and even games. They're called patches.
While our visions of what's fair may differ greatly, I can assure you even I do think EVE is a tad too easy. But the game staying...accessible? is very critical for its future. you can almost count the 2003 accounts on your fingers. 2004s, 2005s are slowly vanishing. Times change, people move on to other games or onto other things entirely. Empire needs a decent kick, but not one that reduces newbs back to making isk the way it was done in 2003. (From all I've read.)

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.26 22:20:00 - [602]
 

You're wrong because you said drastic changes are never the way to go. Drastic is relative, and in the eye of the beholder.

Stuff that makes me **** bricks would make Random Empire Carebear squeal with delight. Plz sir. Can't you see it hurts to be me/right? How can I make you understand, short of destroying your corp and hounding you until the end of days? I don't have the regularity for that anymore (old fart joke - snap).

Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.26 22:34:00 - [603]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
You're wrong because you said drastic changes are never the way to go. Drastic is relative, and in the eye of the beholder.

Stuff that makes me **** bricks would make Random Empire Carebear squeal with delight. Plz sir. Can't you see it hurts to be me/right? How can I make you understand, short of destroying your corp and hounding you until the end of days? I don't have the regularity for that anymore (old fart joke - snap).

Razz Okay, thats much clearer. Sorry about the drastic changes comment then. It seems our visions really may differ that greatly.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.26 23:00:00 - [604]
 

Excellent, another convert to the holy cause. Anyone else? I got "if you can read this, you're a carebear" bumper stickers.

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.08.26 23:39:00 - [605]
 

Edited by: Gamesguy on 26/08/2008 23:41:19
Edited by: Gamesguy on 26/08/2008 23:40:27
Originally by: Duncan MacPherson
I have a question. Seems to me that there is a group of people here that want folks to leave Empire space and get out more. I for one have no problem with this. I myself hang out in low sec about 50% of my game time in EvE. Low sec for me doesn't seem any different than Empire except if I am afk someone can gank me.

But say for a player like me or a smaller corp that would have no problems moving out of empire - where can we go? Low sec doesn't provide with enough of a reward over empire to justify the danger. Null space is totally out. Null space is pretty much the good ole boys club. Huge alliances fully entrenched that will only ever be pushed out by another huge alliance. Even if say my corp wanted to move to null space...how? Pull a bunch of capital ships out of my pocket to push these old corps out? Not ever going to happen. Oh wait I know - I can dissolve my corp and meld it into one of the old big ones. Oh thats just fantastic - NOT. Oh I know... I can pay these large corps hundreds of millions for the right of basking in their glow only to be podded after paying and getting all the ships out there.

IMO the problem with people staying in Empire isn't one of - We are all going to do all these awesome lvl 4s that pay tons. Cause if I was doing it for the isk I would mine all day and make more money. 2 hulks + itty V does that. The problem with Empire is the people there have no where to go. We are called care bears - called weak - made fun of because we don't fly out and die. Makes alot of sense to me. Only way small corps can even enjoy the rewards of null space is with wolf packs made up of small fast ships that can go deep - rat till they die and start over in Empire.

I know me and several others in this game that would love to move out. But we can't. We have no options.


How would you know? Have you tried? Or did you merely read the forums with all the whiners who probably have never set foot outside of highsec telling you its impossible?

Guess what? I have. My 2nd 0.0 corp(my first 0.0 corp wasnt really a 0.0 corp, we didnt even have 0.0 access) was a 3 man pirating corp me and a couple of friends made. We went to ec-p8r and after a week we had blue standings for all the major players in the area(took a lot of begging). The region wasn't great but it was a foot in the door. Along the way we made some friends in another corp in the same boat as us trying to get into 0.0 and we both went to the same place. Eventually our two corps merged as it was far easier for the larger corp to get standings than our 3 man corp that just looks like somebody's alt corp.

It wasn't anything fancy, we were a new corp that were residents of a resident alliance that was renting from a much larger alliance(D2), basically the pet of a pet if we use CAOD terms. So we were pretty much at the bottom of the ladder as far as 0.0 hierarchy goes, but no one said it would be easy or that you would magically get to the top overnight.

So, you're wrong. Getting into 0.0 is exceedingly easy. There are dozens of alliances out there that are perfectly willing to talk to you about a renting agreement where you get blue standings and relatively safe space to rat/mine in for a fixed fee per month. Hell there are NRDS zones out there like providence where you can just...move in. As long as you follow the local alliance's rules(CVA in providence for example specifies no piracy), I think TCF also runs such a zone as well.

Alternatively, you can move into NPC 0.0, which tend to be very profitable, syndicate aside. Venal, curse, stain, etc.

So, its not that you can't get into 0.0, you just haven't actually tried.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.08.26 23:51:00 - [606]
 


Quote:

1 - I would say I'm not a bad mission runner. Chugging away nonstop while keeping my entire focus on EVE though, is not how I do missions. between the fact that usually you'll need to refit every single time, look up a guide, and make sure to identify what to do and what not to shoot, for every single mission there is about 5-10 minutes between every mission just from fitting and getting set up. that leaves 50 minutes to do everything else. With absolutely maxed missile skills in a raven, the time it takes to fully do a room in a mission, and then make it to a gate given you absolutely have no room for an afterburner does take quite a while. in many missions the damage is more than enough to break a tech 2 fitted raven unless you put distance, and keep distance while you chug away with cruise missiles. the isk bounties on quite a few missions can be nice, I'd admit its not too hard to break the 10 million mark with maxed skills for negotiations and LP. but 20 million? Yes if I loot and salvage, and that can take another half hour with ease.



That's funny, I've talked with missionrunners who claim to do those samme level 4 missions within 30 minutes.
Quote:
2 -While nerfing highsec somewhat is needed, it can't be as bad as some people here shout, pound drums and worship elder gods to enact. the "limit" I'm talking about is - You have a decent battleship setup - you have negotiations IV, your two LP+ skills to IV. You can mission maybe 3-4 hours two to three times a week if that. that sounds about right for a casual player who has been in the game for about 1-2 years. what would you say is a fair Isk/hour ratio to earn ships to PvP in? (and not get bored as hell and quit EVE)


Same as other professions. Roughly 10 mil ISK/hour I'd say would be good.
Quote:

3- the carrier bit I got confused on. I was saying, to me personally what my opponents short of titans can throw at me/allies is irrelevant as to how fast they can replace it. its more that if they CAN'T come back for a really long time, well that kind of sucks. (for both sides.)



They CAN come back though, just as fast if they control space. If you absolutely mop the floor with them and take every bit of territory they have then NO, they should NOT be able to come back a day later large, expensive ships. It doesn't suck for the winning side, they have won a major victory and got a TANGIBLE BENEFIT. The losing side got the excitement of a war where wins nad losses were meaningful and exciting, and now get to try again. They have many options. They can pull back to hisec and earn less, but be able to regroup before heading back out. They can simply retreat and relocate themselves to more friendly areas, etc...



Quote:

4 - Highsec should definitly pay out less than 0.0 and lowsec, (but not be a waste of time nor just a newbie hangout sector.) But half the problem of it is accessibility. I was talking about changing missions so if people could run missions together, efficiently, and not be easily Ganked in 0.0 and lowsec, ESPECIALLY lowsec, that could fix half the problem right there.


I am an avid proponent of varying agent quality over time to distribute and destroy hubs. However, if you're paying attention, you wont get ganked in a mission. Period.
Quote:

5 - Finally, carriers etc.


Rolling Eyes Carriers and tech 2 are not cost effective in combat. With the amount oF t1 you can field with the same amount of ISK, you would stomp a t2 group of equal ISK value. Tech 1 is not even close to useless in combat, it's more than enough in fact. Nano is getting nerfed anyway, so that's hardly a point.

The idea that lowsec/0.0 groups should use hisec as a farming ground is stupid. The best way for lowsec/0.0 groups to make ISK should be to use the very resources they fight to keep control of.

Zarlis
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.27 03:26:00 - [607]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette


This thread is a good indication that a lot of the player base has had enough and now demand changes. It's a game breaking mechanic, and it needs to be dealt with. Unlike other game breaking stuff like lag, this is easily fixed.




I have just made it to page 18 of this thread and apart from a couple of blowins its just been you and Ruze running a campaign. Unless you are using an alt to speak on behalf of a major alliance then I would say that your detractors outweigh you considerably.

On that line do you have a main in one of the 0.0 Alliances? Lets just say I'm a bit suspicious of the "knight in shining armor calling for nerf on his favorite play style for the good of the game" routine you have both been pulling here.

Rufus MacMaranth
Gallente
TOG Empire
Combat Mining and Logistics
Posted - 2008.08.27 03:43:00 - [608]
 

I'd like to post something constructive, but this is just such a load of *******s I think that is all I'll poast on it.

*******S!
Cheers,
Ruf.
PS: if you cannot figure out how to make more ISK per hour than running lvl 4s you need to have your brain cleaned out. It is dull, but not that hard.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.27 03:47:00 - [609]
 

Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 27/08/2008 03:48:35
It's not that unbelievable. Half the things I say would screw with me utterly ingame. Usually the people who are sick and tired of broken gameplay are the ones who are most familiar with it. Why is it wrong that a mission runner should hate mission running? Plenty of miners hate mining, and want to see it made better.

The only problem is, too many people are busy grinding missions to regard any overhaul as positive. They only see how it affects them personally, in the present. And in most cases that ain't positive.

edit: That was aimed at Zarlis, who just had his propaganda strike reduced to nothing.

Zarlis
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.27 07:21:00 - [610]
 

The other thing I noticed was that although there is plenty of noise related to this whole no lvl4 agents in high sec thing I don't recall seeing any coherent thoughts on how people think this game will become more entertaining with the changes they are proposing.

Lets look at the brave new world of EvE - The Max & Ruze Age.
With no lvl4 agents in high sec I would expect to see the following:
- Greatly reduced volume in meta modules and corresponding hike in prices.
- Smaller reduction in availability of faction items like implants and some price hike.(people will work out the best way to speed run lvl3s so there still will be some faction LP being earned)
- Reduction in high end minerals from refining. This will cause problems for the small time producer as there will no longer be a steady supply from the local mission hubs and they will need to head to trade hubs like Jita. It will also leave all high and low sec producers at the mercy of 0.0 cartels for their highends although I'm sure people in null sec would be delighted to gouge everyone again.
- Loss of lvl4 research agents will obviously cause a drop in the availability of data cores so we also expect a corresponding rise in T2 (nice windfall for BPO owners)
- Much less salvage available, so more price rises (Think of Trit bar price movement when AE was added back into the game)

So looking at that list I am at a loss as to how this will make Eve more entertaining.

I am sure you are not so naive as to think that this change will by some miracle suddenly make eve instantly more fun so what is your goal?

Are you hoping that the bears will all go and be peons in a 0.0 alliance? Judging by the comments in this forum in general 0.0 alliance don't want them so that highly unlikely to happen.
I can't see them all swarming into lo sec like a pack of lemmings so its not going to change lo sec life.

At most you may see a small percentage move to null and lo sec as well as a few emo quits but realistically all I see it doing is making it more frustrating if you need to earn some isk to do something. I'm sure this isn't what you have in mind for eve so again, what's the goal and how is this supposed to make eve more entertaining.



Zarlis
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.27 07:45:00 - [611]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 27/08/2008 03:48:35
It's not that unbelievable. Half the things I say would screw with me utterly ingame. Usually the people who are sick and tired of broken gameplay are the ones who are most familiar with it. Why is it wrong that a mission runner should hate mission running? Plenty of miners hate mining, and want to see it made better.




ok well to be perfectly honest it's actually incomprehensible to me that someone would keep playing a game that they didn't like anymore. Its supposed to be entertainment but if it doesn't entertain then why would you keep playing?.
If what you are saying is correct then it would seem to me that this whole effort to get high sec nerfed is just a last ditch effort from a few jaded old eve players that are bored to tears with the game but are somehow hoping that if CCP does something it will suddenly make the game fun back like it was when they started.
Thing is that once they are tired of a game then they are tired of it and there isn't anything that CCP can do to fix that.

In your case I wouldn't be surprised to find you maintained your sub so that you can entertain yourself by posting on these forums Razz


EpicFailTroll
Posted - 2008.08.27 08:09:00 - [612]
 

Another great case of the alt problem. As the OP stated, the main issue is that pvpers just power run missions in highsec to fund their 0.0 activity. They can get thoroughly trounced one day in 0.0 and field more ships the next one, thanks to their mission running alts. They can occupy 0.0 semi-coherently without having to actively inhabit it, i.e. exploiting its resources, which would force them to undock and maybe get destroyed.
I do agree that this is garbage, just as pirates having a positive sec status alt to run missions in the same lowsec hub where they probe other mission runners (i'd like to see those mission runners having pirate alts to probe down the positive sec alts of pirates, would be ludicrous)

The problem is that you can run multiple accounts, and that those are unrelated. A 0.0 pvper leaving his space to go run missions 30 jumps away leaves his space undefended and open to invasion, so the problem is not him running missions in highsec, but him having mission running alt/s, running multiple accounts, having his main docked in 0.0 so local shows presence

It's high time CCP cuts down on its profits for the greater good of the game. EvE will be an incredible experience if its limited to one account per IP (one logged account per IP would be already quite good). I hope that the World of Darkness MMO is a financial success -and a gameplay one-, so they can do the right thing and finance the cutting of clone subscriptions.

Kwedaras
Amarr
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.27 10:21:00 - [613]
 

Originally by: Rimsa Orion
Edited by: Rimsa Orion on 26/08/2008 16:09:11
Waaaa...

Can you people cry a bit more? When suicide ganking started many people laughed and said get over it. This is the wat it is. EvE is a harsh world that you can not take your eyes off of. Once you do you will get popped.

Now we have players whinning about lvl 4 missions in high security. Give me a F'ing break!

Get over it... This is EvE. Did you forget?

Had to toss this in for the sake of sanity of those that think LvL 4 missions should not be allowed in high security space.

LINKAGE

Enjoy and remember... IT IS A GAME!


Play the GAME and stop worrying about how others are making thier way in the game.



whoever creator of this wheel is, please add removal of the chribbas veldnought to the wheel Very Happy

Ohhitsa SNAKE
Posted - 2008.08.27 11:19:00 - [614]
 

"I did check the screenshots you sent. However I cannot take use them as a "proof" for a reimbursement decision since, regardless of what information they do provide us with, the server side logs are the absolute final arbiter of what we may and may not do in response to a request through a petition.

With regards to the control of drones, as a drone user myself I perfectly understand your point.

With regards to the lag issue in Dodixie you described, all I could suggest you would be to try doing missions for agents located in less populated systems, for example agents who are not part of the Federation Navy but of another Gallente corporation. You would still get access to a pretty similar LP shop, and may even get your hands on more interesting implants which are not available in the Federation Navy's LP store. "

so not only are people erning at half speed but if they loose a ship with all the lag to stuf they should be able to control it wont be rembursed .. remeber that when u fly a ship with very low payout to purchase price,.

(screne shot showed me at mission start being shot and nothing around)... fun I tell, enough for me to finally say Fu

since the abilty to 0.0 poss fair is nasty lagg, fw includes centires , they dont mix with lagg and inties and finally the one place Id come back to get myself a new ship is broken ( I could move but my god that take a weeks of hauling).



Galvatine
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.27 11:55:00 - [615]
 

Originally by: EpicFailTroll
Another great case of the alt problem. As the OP stated, the main issue is that pvpers just power run missions in highsec to fund their 0.0 activity. They can get thoroughly trounced one day in 0.0 and field more ships the next one, thanks to their mission running alts. They can occupy 0.0 semi-coherently without having to actively inhabit it, i.e. exploiting its resources, which would force them to undock and maybe get destroyed.
I do agree that this is garbage, just as pirates having a positive sec status alt to run missions in the same lowsec hub where they probe other mission runners (i'd like to see those mission runners having pirate alts to probe down the positive sec alts of pirates, would be ludicrous)

The problem is that you can run multiple accounts, and that those are unrelated. A 0.0 pvper leaving his space to go run missions 30 jumps away leaves his space undefended and open to invasion, so the problem is not him running missions in highsec, but him having mission running alt/s, running multiple accounts, having his main docked in 0.0 so local shows presence

It's high time CCP cuts down on its profits for the greater good of the game. EvE will be an incredible experience if its limited to one account per IP (one logged account per IP would be already quite good). I hope that the World of Darkness MMO is a financial success -and a gameplay one-, so they can do the right thing and finance the cutting of clone subscriptions.


I don't suppose you can see a problem with limiting access to a single IP...

I live in the same house as someone else that plays Eve, we share an Internet connection...now one of us cant play

I access the Internet via a mobile connection, since most of these are NATed, I can no longer play, at least in any coherant way.

I access the game via my college/university campus, same again.

Sorry /fail does not even begin to cover it

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.27 11:59:00 - [616]
 

Originally by: EpicFailTroll
Another great case of the alt problem. As the OP stated, the main issue is that pvpers just power run missions in highsec to fund their 0.0 activity. They can get thoroughly trounced one day in 0.0 and field more ships the next one, thanks to their mission running alts. They can occupy 0.0 semi-coherently without having to actively inhabit it, i.e. exploiting its resources, which would force them to undock and maybe get destroyed.
I do agree that this is garbage, just as pirates having a positive sec status alt to run missions in the same lowsec hub where they probe other mission runners (i'd like to see those mission runners having pirate alts to probe down the positive sec alts of pirates, would be ludicrous)

The problem is that you can run multiple accounts, and that those are unrelated. A 0.0 pvper leaving his space to go run missions 30 jumps away leaves his space undefended and open to invasion, so the problem is not him running missions in highsec, but him having mission running alt/s, running multiple accounts, having his main docked in 0.0 so local shows presence

It's high time CCP cuts down on its profits for the greater good of the game. EvE will be an incredible experience if its limited to one account per IP (one logged account per IP would be already quite good). I hope that the World of Darkness MMO is a financial success -and a gameplay one-, so they can do the right thing and finance the cutting of clone subscriptions.


Proxy servers: You fail. Try again.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.27 15:32:00 - [617]
 

Hi, as much as I'd love to entertain personal agendas and go on a wild tangent about 'the alt problem' and that time pirates touched you.. this thread is about empire agenting. Specifically, this thread is about destroying the vile and detrimental system which has reigned supreme for four years.

Liam Liam
Posted - 2008.08.27 15:45:00 - [618]
 

Risk versus reward ?

I get 20M an hour from missions and get a 250M battleship blown up in 10 seconds ... lets see

12 hours + missioning to recover from ....that sounds like plenty of risk to me

You want risk lets have real risk no clones get podded lose all your SP permadeath ... but then again no one would play would they ...except for week old alts

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.27 15:51:00 - [619]
 

Did you just equate npcing with risk? loooooooooooooooooo|<---2km--->|oooooooooooooooooooooool.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.08.27 15:53:00 - [620]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
...this thread is about empire agenting. Specifically, this thread is about destroying the vile and detrimental system which has reigned supreme for four years.


Vile and detrimental? This system has worked for over 4 years without causing issues in the game and continues to work. However, I am curious in knowing what makes you feel so strongly this way.



Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.27 16:25:00 - [621]
 

Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
...this thread is about empire agenting. Specifically, this thread is about destroying the vile and detrimental system which has reigned supreme for four years.


Vile and detrimental? This system has worked for over 4 years without causing issues in the game and continues to work. However, I am curious in knowing what makes you feel so strongly this way.



Slavery has worked for centuries around the world, and would have continued to work if a couple whiny b*tches didn't go all 'free mah peoples' on the world's governments.

Psst ... slavery is still practiced in various countries around the world. I guess it continues to 'work', no?

Just riding you. But the excuse that 'it works' doesn't mean 'it's balanced'. Just my opinion, anyhow.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.08.27 16:27:00 - [622]
 

Originally by: Ruze
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
...this thread is about empire agenting. Specifically, this thread is about destroying the vile and detrimental system which has reigned supreme for four years.


Vile and detrimental? This system has worked for over 4 years without causing issues in the game and continues to work. However, I am curious in knowing what makes you feel so strongly this way.



Slavery has worked for centuries around the world, and would have continued to work if a couple whiny b*tches didn't go all 'free mah peoples' on the world's governments.

Psst ... slavery is still practiced in various countries around the world. I guess it continues to 'work', no?

Just riding you. But the excuse that 'it works' doesn't mean 'it's balanced'. Just my opinion, anyhow.


Wow. What a way to compare level 4 missioning in high sec with slavery Shocked. Nice strawman. Anyone care in explaining how high sec level 4 missions are vile and detrimental?



Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.08.27 16:28:00 - [623]
 

Originally by: Ruze


Slavery has worked for centuries around the world, and would have continued to work if a couple whiny b*tches didn't go all 'free mah peoples' on the world's governments.




This bit of humor cracked me up.


Laughing




DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:06:00 - [624]
 

It did the opposite of what expansion "Exodus" was meant to, injected countless trillions into the economy, provided pvp-free farming for years.

I also blame it for murdering the basic necessity of teamwork for personal advancement that made having a good corporation relevant, and by extension, for murdering corporate competition.

I blame it for the geological pace of 0.0 politics where the same people who strove to be the best eons ago are still doing it, and I blame it for multi-regional alliances that hold vast amounts of barren space nobody bothers to challenge. I also blame it for player driven story lines not having the relevance on daily life they once did.

I believe if EVE ever ceased being true to its origins - its original form and potential - it was the day they screwed up with agenting. It's also believe its a major example of CCP siding with business over gameplay, perhaps the very first.

I believe the majority of players playing in what is effectively a newbie zone is fundamentally wrong, and I believe only competitive pressure will change that. And change is something I can boldly justify even among the audacious claims that EVE is about freedom and not telling people what to do and how to play.

Let me tell you about freedom. Freedom is having equal opportunity for success, not having perfect equity for everyone. Agenting rewards the amount of time you play and grind, and not how well you play. Agenting absolves you from teamwork and social skill. Its an IQ-agnostic system that ensures anyone who rises to the top is not really wielding real power.

There are no rich in EVE, just richer. Even the poor or middle class of this game can afford to light cigars with the dying embers of a hundred ships.

There are no villains in EVE, because the cruelest violence is reduced to a jolly good jousting where the hardest blows and surgical strikes don't leave a scar.

To annoy someone and declare ultimate victory is not something you need EVE for. You can go camp a corpse and achieve the same in any other MMO.

Give us real conflict. The best wars are not of e-peen and angst, but basic survival and competitive ruthlessness. War for survival is not brutality for the sake of brutality, its just plain fun.

The whole point of EVE is competitive ruthlessness, and right now there is zero reason to throw yourself into the fray aside from "because I want to", and "because I can afford to". I can sympathize with all of that, even with someone trying to grief the living daylights out of me from boredom.

But someone who steamrolled your hopes, and crushed your dreams for a marginal boost in profit without ever knowing you.. that's cold. That's EVE.

Right now, today, players start playing the real EVE in 0.0 long after they've become financially stable and overcome the learning curve. They go to 0.0 to wage endless meaningless wars over something somebody said five player generations before they even heard of EVE. Diplomacy, surrender, and business acumen are nerfed because even the most cowardly inept worm can afford to wield a weapon and call himself badass. War is cheap, self-sufficiency a joke, and politics perpetually stunted.

Yes, all because of the population of EVE is playing nice. All because of agent missions. And the best tactic naysayers have is to monger people's fears of increased competition and difficulty. Even of those who agree its a problem, the less willed can be coerced into "less drastic solutions" because they fear a mass exodus of player subscriptions.

Both sound perfectly logical to people that can't conceive a game which holds no commonality with the one they quit before coming here. There's a reason people quit those games, and those games die. And it is the exact opposite of increased challenge.

Summary for the lazy naysayer: You are being a massive vagina.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.27 17:07:00 - [625]
 

Oh I hope that was good for you Exlegion, because it was good for me.

Go on, ask another question.

EpicFailTroll
Posted - 2008.08.27 18:16:00 - [626]
 

Edited by: EpicFailTroll on 27/08/2008 18:17:58
Originally by: Galvatine


I don't suppose you can see a problem with limiting access to a single IP...

I live in the same house as someone else that plays Eve, we share an Internet connection...now one of us cant play

I access the Internet via a mobile connection, since most of these are NATed, I can no longer play, at least in any coherant way.

I access the game via my college/university campus, same again.

Sorry /fail does not even begin to cover it


I don't see a problem. You can't play with your pals? deal w/ it nerds. Get your own place or something. University is made for studying, don't you think its cost is high enough to warrant not wasting your times playing games? And plug back your ethernet.

Ban the proxies from accessing the game also. Simple enough, if wikipedia can do it.



Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Hi, as much as I'd love to entertain personal agendas and go on a wild tangent about 'the alt problem' and that time pirates touched you.. this thread is about empire agenting. Specifically, this thread is about destroying the vile and detrimental system which has reigned supreme for four years.


You could also reread the first post of this thread, which very specifically addresses the fact that 0.0 pvpers just mission in highsec to fund their 0.0 activity. Which is also what your wall of text above laments. Said pvpers mission with alts, since clone jumping or flying to highsec from 0.0 doesn't allow you to afk in your space and defend it when the need arises.

So indeed, the problem lies in multiple accounts running. Without mission running alts, guys in 0.0 would have to actively make isk in their space, like the drones they recruit and pick because those one account guys do indeed npc. Which is not very worthwhile, since you have to stay in your home system in case of incoming gangs, which are not dealt with at top efficiency since the more experienced guys are occupied running missions on their alts. Space is often not efficiently occupied for this very reason.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.08.27 18:45:00 - [627]
 

Edited by: Exlegion on 27/08/2008 20:11:00
Whoah whoah! Slow down there. You're blaming high sec missioning for things that really have no relevance to it.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
It did the opposite of what expansion "Exodus" was meant to, injected countless trillions into the economy, provided pvp-free farming for years.

I can't argue on what the purpose of the Exodus expansion was, but I can tell you that the injection of isk into the economy (however much it is) hasn't shown to be a problem as of yet, atleast according to the findings of Eve's own economist. The day it becomes a problem I'm sure CCP will address it and curb it. But as it stands inflation is not an issue.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I also blame it for murdering the basic necessity of teamwork for personal advancement that made having a good corporation relevant, and by extension, for murdering corporate competition.

Players that want to play solo will continue to do so, even if it means in another game. High sec missions offer high sec players something to do other than logging off for a lack of other things to do in high sec and solo. High sec missions have little bearing on how good corporations fare in comparison to others. If you disagree I'd like to see your connection between missions and lack of corporate competition.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I blame it for the geological pace of 0.0 politics where the same people who strove to be the best eons ago are still doing it, and I blame it for multi-regional alliances that hold vast amounts of barren space nobody bothers to challenge. I also blame it for player driven story lines not having the relevance on daily life they once did.

So, you blame 0.0 politics on high sec missions as well. I'm not sure I follow, but do you suggest CCP force the high sec players to partake in 0.0 life against their will and at the expense of losing them? Would the game be better off if the majority of high sec dwellers left the game?

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I believe if EVE ever ceased being true to its origins - its original form and potential - it was the day they screwed up with agenting. It's also believe its a major example of CCP siding with business over gameplay, perhaps the very first.

I certainly respect your opinion. But when I started playing this game missions were already around. The fact you can do missions if you choose to only added more depth and complexity to the game; not less.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I believe the majority of players playing in what is effectively a newbie zone is fundamentally wrong, and I believe only competitive pressure will change that. And change is something I can boldly justify even among the audacious claims that EVE is about freedom and not telling people what to do and how to play.

I don't think CCP looks at high sec as just a "newbie zone". High sec space provides a lifestyle more appropriate to the casual gamer and other types of players. Those players have a place in Eve. There are players that log in for a little relaxation and minimal hassle. High sec provides that environment to some extent. There's absolutely nothing wrong with CCP dedicating a piece of space to these players, no matter how much we detest the idea. It's their game, their choice.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Let me tell you about freedom. Freedom is having equal opportunity for success, not having perfect equity for everyone. Agenting rewards the amount of time you play and grind, and not how well you play. Agenting absolves you from teamwork and social skill. Its an IQ-agnostic system that ensures anyone who rises to the top is not really wielding real power.

And what exactly is wrong with rewarding a player based on time invested and grind? Must it always and exclusively be on who presses F1-F8 the quickest? Or based on who fits the scrambler, webber, and ECM?



Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.08.27 18:46:00 - [628]
 

Edited by: Exlegion on 27/08/2008 20:23:39
And in reference to missions absolving you from teamwork and social skill, that just isn't true. For one, there are level 5 missions, which require teamwork (and obviously social skill) to complete. I can tell you that mission runners are also quite helpful. So to say they either lack, donít use, donít need social skills is quite a generalization to make.

I will admit, however, that I stopped ganging with other missioners when the Lofty scam became more and more popular. But I think we can agree that this was an effect due to the over-use of faulty game mechanics. As a last note, why do you care if the player running missions IS a moron and/or sociopath? Should this cause you to enjoy your gaming experience less considering you probably wonít be crossing paths? After all, if he is a sociopath itís not like heíll be sharing his wealth with your enemy, right?

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
There are no rich in EVE, just richer. Even the poor or middle class of this game can afford to light cigars with the dying embers of a hundred ships.

And how much are the ďdying embers of a hundred shipsĒ worth? Iím guessing guessing not much. And how exactly is this exclusive to ďagentingĒ, as you call it? Do ratting a hundred ships in low sec and 0.0 not provide you with the same kind of loot to ďlight your cigarsĒ? And again, how is this vile and detrimental to Eve?

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
There are no villains in EVE, because the cruelest violence is reduced to a jolly good jousting where the hardest blows and surgical strikes don't leave a scar.

Aside from the fact there are plenty of ďvillainsĒ in the form of pirates in Eve, again this has nothing to do with missioning. Or are you suggesting that the imposition of anguish and frustration on another player is the sole satisfying reason for playing Eve?

Quote:
To annoy someone and declare ultimate victory is not something you need EVE for. You can go camp a corpse and achieve the same in any other MMO.

A decent suggestion. But really that is all it is. Players play Eve not just because it offers PVP, but because it has a million other things which it excels at. It isnít your or my right to force a player out of Eve because they donít like Eve for what we like it.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Give us real conflict. The best wars are not of e-peen and angst, but basic survival and competitive ruthlessness. War for survival is not brutality for the sake of brutality, its just plain fun.

Nothing wrong with your play style and I assure you, it is still to be found in Eve. But if youíre looking to find it in missions then youíre looking in the wrong place. And if itís for this precise reason you want missions gone then youíre being selfish. Not all players are looking for the style of play you find enjoyable.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
The whole point of EVE is competitive ruthlessness, and right now there is zero reason to throw yourself into the fray aside from "because I want to", and "because I can afford to". I can sympathize with all of that, even with someone trying to grief the living daylights out of me from boredom.

Right now running missions in low sec would probably mean running at a loss for many players. Removing or nerfing missions in high sec would not be solving this still. It just means it becomes harder for players to earn enough isk to head back to low/0.0 sec. Itís not really what you want to hear, but in order to nerf high sec low sec would need to be secure enough to be able to make a profit. But this isnít exactly the solution pirates want for low sec.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
But someone who steamrolled your hopes, and crushed your dreams for a marginal boost in profit without ever knowing you.. that's cold. That's EVE.

It still is Eve, regardless on whether there are missions in high sec or not. Find your place in Eve and let those in high sec enjoy their Eve.



Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.08.27 18:46:00 - [629]
 

Edited by: Exlegion on 27/08/2008 19:11:26
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Right now, today, players start playing the real EVE in 0.0 long after they've become financially stable and overcome the learning curve. They go to 0.0 to wage endless meaningless wars over something somebody said five player generations before they even heard of EVE. Diplomacy, surrender, and business acumen are nerfed because even the most cowardly inept worm can afford to wield a weapon and call himself badass. War is cheap, self-sufficiency a joke, and politics perpetually stunted.

Most 0.0 alliances, especially those holding their own space sustain themselves through means other than high sec missions. These issues you bring up have little or nothing to do with high sec missioning. And for those players who actually do mission in order to PVP, what alternative would you offer them? Mining perhaps? But in order to sell ores and finished goods buyers will need isk. Where will this influx of isk come from? Will there be enough isk to keep the economy balanced?

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Yes, all because of the population of EVE is playing nice. All because of agent missions. And the best tactic naysayers have is to monger people's fears of increased competition and difficulty. Even of those who agree its a problem, the less willed can be coerced into "less drastic solutions" because they fear a mass exodus of player subscriptions.

Then donít go where the ďpopulation is playing niceĒ. Head out to low/0.0 sec. I assure you that for the most part players arenít playing nice in these areas. Again, youíre looking for PVP and conflict in the wrong place. Let there exist a place for those looking for less conflict than you. Things will be fine I assure you.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Both sound perfectly logical to people that can't conceive a game which holds no commonality with the one they quit before coming here. There's a reason people quit those games, and those games die. And it is the exact opposite of increased challenge.

No. There are many reasons why people quit games; not just one and not just yours. And contrary to all the cries in the forums lately, I doubt Eve will die any time soon and for the reasons you specify here. Youíre entitled to your opinion as others are to theirs. The reason you play Eve may not be the reasons others play it. You have to respect other peopleís reasons as you respect your own. You donít have to like them, just respect them. Eve isnít your game alone, or those that think like you. It is OUR game. And we like it for many, many reasons, not just because the pew-pew is good.

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Summary for the lazy naysayer: You are being a massive vagina.

This is an ad hominem, probably to make yourself feel smarter or braver than those who do not share your opinions. Don't know/don't care. Either way don't have much to say on this.



Qob
Posted - 2008.08.27 19:24:00 - [630]
 

Hey, if we are talking about Risk vs Reward,
I suggest we nerf the *Traders*.
They are totally safe, snug in their hangers.

They make millions and only risk a percent or two in brokers fees.
We should be able to steal stuff from the market.
Break into other people's hangers!.

The hacking skill should let us get a chance to scam the market!


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