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Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.26 15:58:00 - [571]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Hi Ruze. You may know me from such popular episodes as m0o, The Great Northern War, BURN EDEN BEATDOWN '04, kicking ass at the Jovian event, kicking ass at the Colossus race, IRC fascism, the UQS/GHSC heist, FZN + drama, EC-P8R megablob, the destruction of 2 original goon corps and GS v1.0, the death of ASCN, F-TE1T titan spook, 9-98 cap cluster****, and 6 million words describing how carebears are the sub-human cancer of EVE. o/


I don't know you, but I love you Laughing

Though I really don't see myself as a cancer. Nor sub-human. More of a parasite. A helpful one! Like the little fishes that clean the skin off the great white sharks, or a tape worm. Yeah! Like a tape worm.

Carebears. Tape Worms. Same diff!

F90OEX
F9X
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:01:00 - [572]
 

19 pages of the same crap LaughingLaughingLaughing

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:03:00 - [573]
 

Originally by: F90OEX
19 pages of the same crap LaughingLaughingLaughing


Welcome to the party, we got Fresca and Timbits.

Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:04:00 - [574]
 

Edited by: Rimsa Orion on 26/08/2008 16:09:11
Waaaa...

Can you people cry a bit more? When suicide ganking started many people laughed and said get over it. This is the wat it is. EvE is a harsh world that you can not take your eyes off of. Once you do you will get popped.

Now we have players whinning about lvl 4 missions in high security. Give me a F'ing break!

Get over it... This is EvE. Did you forget?

Had to toss this in for the sake of sanity of those that think LvL 4 missions should not be allowed in high security space.

LINKAGE

Enjoy and remember... IT IS A GAME!


Play the GAME and stop worrying about how others are making thier way in the game.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:08:00 - [575]
 

Originally by: Rimsa Orion
Now we have players whinning about lvl 4 missions in high security. Give me a F'ing break!


Not since Shiva ;3

Kwedaras
Amarr
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:25:00 - [576]
 

Originally by: Rimsa Orion
Edited by: Rimsa Orion on 26/08/2008 16:09:11
Waaaa...
EvE is a harsh world that you can not take your eyes off of. Once you do you will get popped.




i just noticed this statement has nothing with lvl4 missions. Thats why are we asking for balance. You shouldnt earn that much money by doing never ending (Read : unlimited) missions, when you are so secure.

Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:28:00 - [577]
 





Atomic powered pirate revenge thread still going strong.....





.

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:30:00 - [578]
 

Originally by: Kwedaras
Originally by: knobber Jobbler
No one has still put up a good reason to nerf level 4's in high sec.

All people have done is point out more rewards are needed in low sec/0.0. That said, faction gear is from low sec and its the lvl4 mission runners that pay the ridiculous amounts to buy that faction gear found in low sec. Lvl4's drive the economy, remove them from high sec and the entire EVE economy will fall on its a@@.


yeah, well, all of these Caldari Navy cruise missile launchers you just bought today for your CNR was found in a wreck of one of countles npc frigates wreck. true story.




I'm talking the faction gear that sells for billions. Not to mention who would or could afford to buy something like a CNR or Golem if you removed lvl 4's.

Rimsa Orion
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:33:00 - [579]
 

I have an idea for all the people that want to change the world.

GO GET A JOB AT CCP!

Until you do that stop this stupid crap and go play the game.

Sniff... Sniff... kind of making me sad now... Crying or Very sad

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.26 16:52:00 - [580]
 

Originally by: Rimsa Orion
I have an idea for all the people that want to change the world.

GO GET A JOB AT CCP!

Until you do that stop this stupid crap and go play the game.

Sniff... Sniff... kind of making me sad now... Crying or Very sad


So, you think the game is perfect and in no need of any changes? Too bad you don't work at CCP. Then we wouldn't have the suicide gank nerf, the war dec nerf, the nano nerf, WTZ, the low sec nerf, the carrier cargo nerf, the titan nerf, the lp store, the dual wielding mwd nerf, the titan bowling nerf, the remote-repping NPC nerf, CONCORD, salvage, heat, solar system map, exploration, lvl 5 agents, boosted sentry guns, jet can aggro, big fuel bay POSes, POSes at all for that matter, T2 battleships, Tier 2 battlecruisers, HICtors, or bubbles.

God, I wish you worked at CCP with all your wisdom.

Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:17:00 - [581]
 

Bring back July 2003. It'll fix everything.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:20:00 - [582]
 

Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Bring back July 2003. It'll fix everything.


God help us all. That would be a shock.

At least you guys would get rid of me. I had no interest in the game back then.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:27:00 - [583]
 

Originally by: Rimsa Orion
I have an idea for all the people that want to change the world.

GO GET A JOB AT CCP!

Until you do that stop this stupid crap and go play the game.

Sniff... Sniff... kind of making me sad now... Crying or Very sad


Hi, yeah uh, I'd like combo #5 "CCP Employment Supreme" with extra Improbability Sauce. Hold the lollerpickles and lettuce.

Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:28:00 - [584]
 

Originally by: Ruze
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Bring back July 2003. It'll fix everything.


God help us all. That would be a shock.

At least you guys would get rid of me. I had no interest in the game back then.

It wasn't that bad. Low sec and 0.0 was a lot easier to get into. I never got a chance to do what was called "ninja mining" out in 0.0. Stuff was very expensive back then. Best ship I had was a Rupture and boy did it have a god awful fit on it when I logged in my 2003 character back in around August 2006. The little guy was actually in 0.0 space.

But, if CCP did do a July 2003 it would shut up so many people (yes, mostly due to shock) about nerf this, nerf that. And, man, would it be hilarious. Could you imagine, Jita a free fire zone? Just the thought tingles my toes.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:30:00 - [585]
 

Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Originally by: Ruze
Originally by: Traidor Disloyal
Bring back July 2003. It'll fix everything.


God help us all. That would be a shock.

At least you guys would get rid of me. I had no interest in the game back then.

It wasn't that bad. Low sec and 0.0 was a lot easier to get into. I never got a chance to do what was called "ninja mining" out in 0.0. Stuff was very expensive back then. Best ship I had was a Rupture and boy did it have a god awful fit on it when I logged in my 2003 character back in around August 2006. The little guy was actually in 0.0 space.

But, if CCP did do a July 2003 it would shut up so many people (yes, mostly due to shock) about nerf this, nerf that. And, man, would it be hilarious. Could you imagine, Jita a free fire zone? Just the thought tingles my toes.


It's just the type of gaming preference, I guess. Being limited to T1 ships, only frigates, cruisers and battleships, only two or three ships each ...

I'd play for an hour just to go back to the golden age of Amarr.

But the lack of content available in 2003? I mean, in July, did they even have agents at all?

No thanks.

Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:38:00 - [586]
 

Originally by: Ruze
But the lack of content available in 2003? I mean, in July, did they even have agents at all?

No thanks.

They were just starting to get the bugs out when I left. I think all they had were level 2 agents back then. I got most of my isk rating in low sec and helping to mine out in 0.0. I had enough to afford a Rupture, a Stabber, and a hauler that I found in different places on the map.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:42:00 - [587]
 

Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 26/08/2008 17:42:04
Quote:

They were just starting to get the bugs out when I left. I think all they had were level 2 agents back then. I got most of my isk rating in low sec and helping to mine out in 0.0. I had enough to afford a Rupture, a Stabber, and a hauler that I found in different places on the map.


Wow, the game must have sucked back then. I mean, you couldn't even make enough ISK to replace battleship losses within 2 hours without having to risk your ship to pirate gankers.


Laughing

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:44:00 - [588]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 26/08/2008 17:42:04
Quote:

They were just starting to get the bugs out when I left. I think all they had were level 2 agents back then. I got most of my isk rating in low sec and helping to mine out in 0.0. I had enough to afford a Rupture, a Stabber, and a hauler that I found in different places on the map.


Wow, the game must have sucked back then. I mean, you couldn't even make enough ISK to replace battleship losses within 2 hours without having to risk your ship to pirate gankers.


Laughing


*sniff*

Anybody else smell that?

Man.

*sniff*

Smells like ...

*sniff*

sarcasm.

*sniff*

Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
Segregati0n
Posted - 2008.08.26 17:46:00 - [589]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 26/08/2008 17:42:04
Quote:

They were just starting to get the bugs out when I left. I think all they had were level 2 agents back then. I got most of my isk rating in low sec and helping to mine out in 0.0. I had enough to afford a Rupture, a Stabber, and a hauler that I found in different places on the map.


Wow, the game must have sucked back then. I mean, you couldn't even make enough ISK to replace battleship losses within 2 hours without having to risk your ship to pirate gankers.


Laughing

Had to be careful with those dang Rifters too. Like gold,man, gold. Laughing

5pinDizzy
Amarr
Pillow Fighters Inc
Posted - 2008.08.26 18:17:00 - [590]
 

Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 26/08/2008 18:21:34

Originally by: Duncan MacPherson
I have a question. Seems to me that there is a group of people here that want folks to leave Empire space and get out more. I for one have no problem with this. I myself hang out in low sec about 50% of my game time in EvE. Low sec for me doesn't seem any different than Empire except if I am afk someone can gank me.

But say for a player like me or a smaller corp that would have no problems moving out of empire - where can we go? Low sec doesn't provide with enough of a reward over empire to justify the danger. Null space is totally out. Null space is pretty much the good ole boys club. Huge alliances fully entrenched that will only ever be pushed out by another huge alliance. Even if say my corp wanted to move to null space...how? Pull a bunch of capital ships out of my pocket to push these old corps out? Not ever going to happen. Oh wait I know - I can dissolve my corp and meld it into one of the old big ones. Oh thats just fantastic - NOT. Oh I know... I can pay these large corps hundreds of millions for the right of basking in their glow only to be podded after paying and getting all the ships out there.

IMO the problem with people staying in Empire isn't one of - We are all going to do all these awesome lvl 4s that pay tons. Cause if I was doing it for the isk I would mine all day and make more money. 2 hulks + itty V does that. The problem with Empire is the people there have no where to go. We are called care bears - called weak - made fun of because we don't fly out and die. Makes alot of sense to me. Only way small corps can even enjoy the rewards of null space is with wolf packs made up of small fast ships that can go deep - rat till they die and start over in Empire.

I know me and several others in this game that would love to move out. But we can't. We have no options.


There is a depressing amount of truth in this post.

There isn't much fun in nullsec, me and a friend stopped 5 mins last night in the most quiet area of nullsec we could find on the map and cloaked while we had a bio break, 30 seconds later, a 20 man blob came through the gate we were going to go to.

You could always join one of the alliances but it's like your own corp, you can never find a good one, they either have stuff you disagree with or policies, or they simply make far to much of a demand of pvp time on you then you can afford to offer without killing your enjoyment of the game, fleet ops are incredibly boring, and an alliance demanding you attend one at least 5 times a week say is a major turnoff. #

Pirating however is fun! Laughing

Plus the problem that no matter where I go in eve these days, everywhere is starting to feel a bit overcrowded.

I want more space!

Why can't I find hardly a single place somewhere in a whole galaxy that isn't full of other people tracking me down to steal my stuff or kill me? Laughing

Oh right yeah, local and it's system wide information radar that makes people spread out to 1 per system. :p

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.08.26 18:30:00 - [591]
 

Quote:
I have a question. Seems to me that there is a group of people here that want folks to leave Empire space and get out more. I for one have no problem with this. I myself hang out in low sec about 50% of my game time in EvE. Low sec for me doesn't seem any different than Empire except if I am afk someone can gank me.

But say for a player like me or a smaller corp that would have no problems moving out of empire - where can we go? Low sec doesn't provide with enough of a reward over empire to justify the danger. Null space is totally out. Null space is pretty much the good ole boys club. Huge alliances fully entrenched that will only ever be pushed out by another huge alliance. Even if say my corp wanted to move to null space...how? Pull a bunch of capital ships out of my pocket to push these old corps out? Not ever going to happen. Oh wait I know - I can dissolve my corp and meld it into one of the old big ones. Oh thats just fantastic - NOT. Oh I know... I can pay these large corps hundreds of millions for the right of basking in their glow only to be podded after paying and getting all the ships out there.


That's pretty much the whole point of the suggestion. Without the insane payout of l4s and with lowsec mining fixed, lowsec would be worth the effort and is the perfect place for smaller groups to prosper.

I think 0.0 isn't as profitable as it should be relative to hisec either, but the whole reason I want level 4s nerfed is so that lowsec is boosted.

Todd Phillips
Posted - 2008.08.26 20:55:00 - [592]
 

haha are you serious with this thread ?Very Happy

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2008.08.26 20:58:00 - [593]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Their job is to make the best possible game from our millions of dollars, youth, failed marriages and firstborn children. Sometimes that means taking a financial hit in the present to preserve the future. Sometimes that means ignoring the ignorant and selfish majority. Sometimes that means playing their game, ignoring Accounting, and realizing how superbly right I am.


This, oh so much this.

When the PvE-centric space based MMO's start hitting the market the majority of EVE's PvE preferring population is going to migrate to games where the AI provides a challenge, the rewards progress, teamwork is meaningful, and you generally get all the things that WoW offers with regard to PvE with such success.

If, in the mean time CCP has managed to make the game unattractive to the high consequence PvP demographic they have always appealed to this place is going to be a ghost town.

Not saying they shouldn't improve the PvE (because while for there to be consequences there has to be "work" and man-hours to lose those hours should be as enjoyable as possible) but as I said before CCP need to remember which side their bread is buttered. If they lose their focus and try to please everyone they will lose out to games that have focused on their target demographics.

If what happens in hi-sec didn't effect everywhere else then this wouldn't be a problem. But it does and it is.

Zo5o
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.26 21:08:00 - [594]
 

If you nerf hisec income, and do not nerf losec income equally, less players will be able to fund second and third accounts through GTC's whether GTC prices drop or not, and CCP will lose money. The GTC prices will not drop as much as the hisec mission running income, because those who choose to move to losec will make even more isk than before relative to the hisec runners to spend on GTCs, and the countless thousands of risk-averse players who fund primary, second and third accounts with GTCs will make far less isk. The result will be a net loss in subscriptions, since, to the risk-averse mission runners (who ARE the majority, like it or not), the price of GTCs relative to their income will go up.

Aside from the merits of "Eve should be a cold and harsh pvp game," or however you look at it... if you are running Eve as a business, and the largest portion of your playerbase is risk-averse carebears, and many of them fund their gametime by paying ISK to other players who pay you for the GTC's... does it make business sense to heavily nerf the ISK income of such a large playerbase?

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.26 21:22:00 - [595]
 

Originally by: Zo5o
If you nerf hisec income, and do not nerf losec income equally, less players will be able to fund second and third accounts through GTC's whether GTC prices drop or not, and CCP will lose money. The GTC prices will not drop as much as the hisec mission running income, because those who choose to move to losec will make even more isk than before relative to the hisec runners to spend on GTCs, and the countless thousands of risk-averse players who fund primary, second and third accounts with GTCs will make far less isk. The result will be a net loss in subscriptions, since, to the risk-averse mission runners (who ARE the majority, like it or not), the price of GTCs relative to their income will go up.

Aside from the merits of "Eve should be a cold and harsh pvp game," or however you look at it... if you are running Eve as a business, and the largest portion of your playerbase is risk-averse carebears, and many of them fund their gametime by paying ISK to other players who pay you for the GTC's... does it make business sense to heavily nerf the ISK income of such a large playerbase?


A) I don't think mission runners are the 'majority'. Only facts I've seen is that 50% of the playerbase spends the majority of their time in hisec. This, of course, includes traders, miners, manufacturers, suicides, mission runners, faction warfare participants on strike, war decs, etc, etc.

B) It would make more sense to me that the 'hardcore' playerbase would be more prone to have multiple accounts. Pirates, nulsec alliance moguls, the guys who spend 20+ hours a week playing, run multiple POS's, and are monopolizing high-end ores, etc. In fact, the number of players who are purely miners by trade but run three to four accounts simultaneously would probably stagger you.

C) Those who do live in hisec are not all 'risk averse'. In fact, I personally have observed that many 'mission runners' are only alts or subsidizing PvP activities in losec or nulsec.

The argument is aimed that hisec isn't full of whining babies who don't want action. While I'm sure there are players such as that (just like their are a bunch of real *sswhipes who only wake up in the morning to pick on new players because they get pushed around by bigger kids in high-school, but overall they probably make up a very small portion of the pirate community), I think the average is much lower than many prophesize.

Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.26 21:43:00 - [596]
 

Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette


Then you are a bad mission runner. I run level 4 missions in a .9 system using a T1/T2 fitted raven and I pull in over 20M and hour. And, yes, CNR pilots count. Why wouldn't they?



Why are you talking about a limit? Are you saying, there should be a limit to how few missions are flewn each day, or how few rats are killed? How could CCP ever set up such a limit when it is all based on players' actions?



Are you telling me that the space you live in can provide a solo player with enough resources to get a carrier every day? If so, you're lying.



Let me see if I understand you here. You want to buff low sec and 0.0 and change the way missions work to make them more fun? Assuming this is what you said, you are fine with people out in low sec and 0.0 making much more than you do in high sec, but you are not fine with high sec paying much less than 0.0 and low sec?


That would fix the "missions are boring" part. It would not fix the "missions are imbalanced" part.

"Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" is one of the corner stones of Eve. PvP won't stop because missions are nerfed. PvP will just become more dynamic and less "must have T2/Faction in order to compete".


Boost low sec a bit (not missions so much, but ratting and exploration), leave 0.0 as it is. That's all that's needed if they nerf high sec.

I can't understand the argument that it's ok to boost low sec and 0.0 but it's not ok to nerf high sec. IT'S THE SAME DAMN THING, but one of them messes up the economy and the other does not.




1 - I would say I'm not a bad mission runner. Chugging away nonstop while keeping my entire focus on EVE though, is not how I do missions. between the fact that usually you'll need to refit every single time, look up a guide, and make sure to identify what to do and what not to shoot, for every single mission there is about 5-10 minutes between every mission just from fitting and getting set up. that leaves 50 minutes to do everything else. With absolutely maxed missile skills in a raven, the time it takes to fully do a room in a mission, and then make it to a gate given you absolutely have no room for an afterburner does take quite a while. in many missions the damage is more than enough to break a tech 2 fitted raven unless you put distance, and keep distance while you chug away with cruise missiles. the isk bounties on quite a few missions can be nice, I'd admit its not too hard to break the 10 million mark with maxed skills for negotiations and LP. but 20 million? Yes if I loot and salvage, and that can take another half hour with ease.

2 -While nerfing highsec somewhat is needed, it can't be as bad as some people here shout, pound drums and worship elder gods to enact. the "limit" I'm talking about is - You have a decent battleship setup - you have negotiations IV, your two LP+ skills to IV. You can mission maybe 3-4 hours two to three times a week if that. that sounds about right for a casual player who has been in the game for about 1-2 years. what would you say is a fair Isk/hour ratio to earn ships to PvP in? (and not get bored as hell and quit EVE)
g
3- the carrier bit I got confused on. I was saying, to me personally what my opponents short of titans can throw at me/allies is irrelevant as to how fast they can replace it. its more that if they CAN'T come back for a really long time, well that kind of sucks. (for both sides.)

4 - Highsec should definitly pay out less than 0.0 and lowsec, (but not be a waste of time nor just a newbie hangout sector.) But half the problem of it is accessibility. I was talking about changing missions so if people could run missions together, efficiently, and not be easily Ganked in 0.0 and lowsec, ESPECIALLY lowsec, that could fix half the problem right there.

5 - Finally, Until carriers and tech 2 are simply WORTH LESS (not worthless) in combat, people need the income they can to fit and fly it too. nano counters are tech 2 only really.

Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.26 21:49:00 - [597]
 

Also I have to say this to digitalcommunist - Drastic changes really are never the best way to go about things, especially when it targets perhaps the quietest people of EVE. CCP actually probably does have their numbers and their reasons for keeping things as they are for now, possibly because maybe it actually could halve subscription numbers permanently if drastic changes are made. And if I've read correctly, although my memory can be a bit fuzzy, I'd feel more than if both the original Carrier nerf and Nano nerf combined would quit if people didn't have a relatively "safe" way to earn ships to go blow up other people with, although slower than those that take the risk for greater income. (And still be able to compete against those seated in infinite, utterly infinite wealth.)

Zo5o
The Scope
Posted - 2008.08.26 22:01:00 - [598]
 

Edited by: Zo5o on 26/08/2008 22:04:57

Quote:
I don't think mission runners are the 'majority'.


What I meant by that is that the majority of mission runners run their missions in hisec, not the majority of eve players. Whether or not these players have pvp alts, they are demonstrating an aversion to risk while running missions if they run said missions in hisec.

I AM willing to bet, however, that hi-sec mission running is the most common profession in EVE, whether or not 50% of the playerbase does it or not.

Also, there are a lot of mission runners who run missions with two or more accounts at once to speed up their completion times.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.26 22:02:00 - [599]
 

Well, you're wrong. Drastic fixes are needed for drastic screw-ups.

Anyone who thinks battleship NPCs in empire isn't the latter is probably a witless newbie who joined long after EVE became easy.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.26 22:03:00 - [600]
 

No offense.

Well, maybe a little. This is EVE after all. :V


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