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Kwedaras
Amarr
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.21 20:59:00 - [1]
 

Risk vs Reward. I am sure everybody heard these words at least a few times while playing eve. Almost every ccps balancing patch (Read: nerf) is based on that. Stabs, nanos, suicide ganking and other nerfed or will be nerfed things render too much reward or too little risk. Now, i want to point out, that this post is not written by a bitter suicide ganker or nanofaag. I must admit that i have tried suicide ganking few months back, i got some kills but that profession was too boring for me. And for nanos - i have 500kish sp in navigation, so no nanos for me.
Lvl4 hisec kill missions.
I think there are two main reasons to do them : money and fun (standings is not a valid reason, if you want high faction standings and do lvl4s, you are doing it wrong, start doing courier missions). The people who do lvl4s for money : chinese farmers, alts of pvpers, pvpers. For fun : carebears.
Rewards.
Typical lvl4 missionrunner should earn about 17.5-20 mil a hour not counting in lp rewards (i got this figure by myself, running missions against guristas in absolution(wrong dmg type, not very high dps)) so rewards can even be higher. I hear guys who are saying, "hey, its just you, i earn 10 mil a hour". My response would be: So if you are doing missions for money, you should find more isk yielding profession. If you are doing them for fun, well, read further. I was also living in lowsec and doing lvl4s there. Three q20 agents is really nice i could choose most suitable missions and reward there was about 30 mil a hour (not counting lp rewards). 0.0 ? It was never appealing for me, but from waht i read people earn 20-30 mil a hour on average (not counting hauler, faction and officer spawns as i was not counting lp rewards, and sure, some might earn even 45 mil, from chaining but i take an average).
Risk
Lets start from other side. 0.0: Risk is quite high. Roaming gangs, enemies make ratters life hard. Some might add that in alliance core systems its pretty quiet. Well thats the point. In order to get to that space you must be a part of the alliance, you must do your duties, defend space, manufacture. It takes hundreds or even thousands of people to cooperate in order to conquer space and make it safe. I give Risk ratio : from 4-10
Low sec. Systems with several good quality lvl 4 agents are commonly visited by pirates. Again, in order to be safe, you need to make a protection force. Some pirates jump in your system, gang is made, and the blob of agentrunners is flying to fight (thats how it was done in system i was missioning). You need to COOPERATE in both cases (lowsec and 0.0). Risk ratio : 4.
Now lets see what we have in empire : You can do lvl4q20 missions freely, even for several agents (there are i think 3 q20 agents in range of 1j in motsu). No need to pay attention all the time (you need in lowsec and 0.0 if you want to stay alive). Also you can try to pimp your ship to a certain level, as suicide ganking is being nerfed and you certainly wont be ganked if you fly a CNR with 500 mil in mods(CN fit). The only left risk is being wardecced, but again, you can leave to npc corp until wardec is dropped. Salvage thieves is not a threat, as they cant shoot you if you are not a moron (Read: you shoot back). Risk ratio : 0-0.01
Risk vs. Reward
So what we get (higher the better) : 0.0 - 45-20/4-10 = from 11.25 to 2. risk vs reward ratio. lowsec - 30/4 = 7.5. And finally : 20/0-01 = from OH SHI-(infinity) to 200
Why lvl4s needs a nerf and not lowsec/0.0 ratting/lvl4s needs a boost : boosting lowsec/0.0 ratting/lvl4s will cause massive inflation, as amount of isk earned will be significantly higher.

Kwedaras
Amarr
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:00:00 - [2]
 

So now we see that running missions in highsec is overpowered (in money earning aspect). Lets remember people who do lvl4s : for money : chinese farmers, alts of pvpers, pvpers. For fun : carebears. Why its bad to have chinese farmers earning much riskless money : obvious, they sell it illegally, its against EULA. Why its bad to have alts of pvpers, pvpers earn much riskless money : eve supposed to have harsh death penalty. You kill your enemy, he loses money. When your enemy has riskless source of money he can recover fast without a problem. So you cant make significant damage for him, he cant be finished. Now imagine that there is no good money from lvl4s. he must come to other place. in lowsec or 0.0 you can gank him again, he loses more money, he cant earn any, he is broke.
What about people who do missions in hisec for fun : carebears. Well so here is my proposal. Dont move lvl4s to lowsec only. make lvl4s in hisec signifacntly less rewarding. im talking about 5-7.5 mil a hour counting in lp rewards. The people who do missions for fun will be happy to be able to do them withou a risk, pvpers and their alts will start doing them somewhere else or choose other profession. chinese farmers will have to risk something.

Thats my thoughts about situation today. Your feedback welcome. I will respond to constructive posts.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:02:00 - [3]
 

You guys keep posting this stuff, your going to make me look bad.

You don't want to make Ruze look bad.

I might just look bad ... um ... back, or something!

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:05:00 - [4]
 

Do we? I don't think so!

Gee i really start disliking annoying ALT postings!

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:07:00 - [5]
 

This post has been cleared of inappropriate content.

Regards,
The EVE Online Moderation team

Atlas Oracle
Minmatar
Colossus Enterprises
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:08:00 - [6]
 

another thread about this was needed, to go with the other 6000 threads that 7 posters have kept going for 3 weeks now. great job.

J'Mkarr Soban
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:09:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Quote:
Risk vs Reward.


Stopped reading here. This is pretty much an infallible indicator that whatever the poster is on about, they're entirely full of ****.


Seconded, plus the entire Wall of Text (tm) shows that they care not for the entire community, but only for themselves.

And complete illiteracy.

Very Happy

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:10:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Ruze
You guys keep posting this stuff, your going to make me look bad.

You don't want to make Ruze look bad.

I might just look bad ... um ... back, or something!


Are you starting to consider just being bad...? YARRRR!!

Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:13:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Kwedaras
So now we see that running missions in highsec is overpowered (in money earning aspect). Lets remember people who do lvl4s : for money : chinese farmers, alts of pvpers, pvpers. For fun : carebears. Why its bad to have chinese farmers earning much riskless money : obvious, they sell it illegally, its against EULA. Why its bad to have alts of pvpers, pvpers earn much riskless money : eve supposed to have harsh death penalty. You kill your enemy, he loses money. When your enemy has riskless source of money he can recover fast without a problem. So you cant make significant damage for him, he cant be finished. Now imagine that there is no good money from lvl4s. he must come to other place. in lowsec or 0.0 you can gank him again, he loses more money, he cant earn any, he is broke.
What about people who do missions in hisec for fun : carebears. Well so here is my proposal. Dont move lvl4s to lowsec only. make lvl4s in hisec signifacntly less rewarding. im talking about 5-7.5 mil a hour counting in lp rewards. The people who do missions for fun will be happy to be able to do them withou a risk, pvpers and their alts will start doing them somewhere else or choose other profession. chinese farmers will have to risk something.

Thats my thoughts about situation today. Your feedback welcome. I will respond to constructive posts.


AhahAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAH

You've never fit or flown a pvp ship in your life, have you?

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:13:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Ruze on 21/08/2008 21:13:56
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Quote:
Risk vs Reward.


Stopped reading here. This is pretty much an infallible indicator that whatever the poster is on about, they're entirely full of ****.


Level 4 missions don't need to be fixed. Hisec doesn't need to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with players being able to make steady isk doing work for NPC agents.

If anything, players in hisec should be able to be more secure. Increase the size of hisec, to at least the same size or more of nulsec, increase the amount of agents and other things, and allow players who are fully interested in doing nothing but PvE to do so.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:18:00 - [11]
 

i think forum whines need to be nerfed

AleRiperKilt
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:19:00 - [12]
 

Translation: Mommy, I can't get easy kill anymore, carebears wont come to lowsec because they make lots of isk running lvl 4 in empire.

Bfoster
Appetite 4 Destruction
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:20:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Bfoster on 21/08/2008 21:21:26
They will just become macro miners, carebears will be carebears...

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:22:00 - [14]
 

You can really break the internet if you type "Google" in www.google.com. True story i tell you, so don't even try it, not even as a joke Exclamation

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:25:00 - [15]
 

Let me Jones this up a bit with a hard cold fact:

Originally by: Kwedaras
standings is not a valid reason, if you want high faction standings and do lvl4s, you are doing it wrong, start doing courier missions)


You might have some valid points in your post, you might have not, you might even have a thread of idea there buried in the "nef" demands but, and here's a big but, the minute, no, the SECOND you tell someone they are playing the game wrong, you lose all and any standing, no pun intended.

I do missions for fun, standings, LP, ISK(to keep me going in EVE) and none of these are accumulating faster, then i could easily get elsewhere. I have loyalties to areas i work in, to companies i work with, to people i work for. May they be NPCs? Semantics, it's valid as working for a player corporation.

So you telling me, i'm "doing it wrong", makes you sound bitter, demanding, and just like the rest who want their cake the way their mommy made it.

Matalino
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:30:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Matalino on 21/08/2008 21:30:43
Why do people keep talking about Risk vs Reward ratio when calling for nerfs against high sec mission?

It is pointless to talk about Risk vs Reward ratio when Risk is effectively zero.

It is not a matter of Risk vs Reward, it is a question of what level of reward should be possible with zero risk.

If you take away high-sec level 4 mission, people will simply move to the next most profitable zero-risk activity.

So the question is, how much should someone be able to make per hour with zero risk: being able to earn approx 20 million per hour sounds reasonable enough to me.

But if you think that is unreasable, how much do you think should be possible make with out taking any risk?

Kage Psychodin
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:31:00 - [17]
 

Hey there. I actually do level 4s on one of my alt accounts in highsec. I have max LP skills for the agents I use and negotiation skills for that setup. 17-20 mil+ for an hour's work? yeah, if you're superman with a lag-free area with a 3 billion isk ship and you don' turn your attention away for a second.

8-15 million an hour, for the best missions, with salvage, looting, and mins refined, all sold and counted for? that sounds about right, assuming I go like a madman.

I make better in 0.0 just because I can bring in the minerals from drops from chained BSes and refine those down and use BPCs to get my meat-and-potatoes-ships all set up, plus all the isk for whatever I can't build.

Oh, and absolutely no risk. Rare if we see a hostile maybe once a day, and unlike level 4s, I can go make a sandwich and come back to my drake still ticking away just fine. level 4s are a shield boost/cap balancing act nonstop, and shooting the wrong rat means you just got toasted.


Ryan Scouse'UK
omen.
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:31:00 - [18]
 

Can anyone give me a quick two lines worth of what he is saying? :)

Matalino
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:32:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK
Can anyone give me a quick two lines worth of what he is saying? :)
People are making too much ISK.

SurrenderMonkey
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:33:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 21/08/2008 21:34:53
I changed my mind. I'll endure the suffering, I guess, and provide a few reasons that will hopefully explain why you are dumb.


Originally by: Kwedaras
Risk vs Reward. I am sure everybody heard these words at least a few times while playing eve.


Yes, we sure have. Unfortunately, every idiot and their brother latched onto CCP explaining that something needed to be changed because a given level of risk/reward was WAY out of whack. Then they decided that their own personal calculations of the risk/reward ratio (as if it's really quantifiable in most cases, idiots) for activity A showing that it is imbalanced by approximately a pubic hair's worth relative to activity B should serve as justification for nerfing any/everything they want nerfed.

Ever since, forum-goers have had to suffer through dozens of posts daily that are exactly like yours.

Quote:
Rewards.
Typical lvl4 missionrunner should earn about 17.5-20 mil a hour not counting in lp rewards (i got this figure by myself, running missions against guristas in absolution(wrong dmg type, not very high dps)) so rewards can even be higher.


See my previous comments re: "their own personal calculations".

God this is so masturbatory, I can't believe I'm really taking the time to respond to it.

Quote:

Risk
Lets start from other side. 0.0: Risk is quite high.


No, it really isn't. Whoever told you this was lying to you.

Quote:
Roaming gangs, enemies make ratters life hard. Some might add that in alliance core systems its pretty quiet. Well thats the point. In order to get to that space you must be a part of the alliance, you must do your duties, defend space, manufacture.



Actually, in a lot of cases you mostly just have to know someone, or perhaps pay a small rental fee. Even without the safety net of an alliance, ALL of the risk of 0.0 can be entirely eliminated with trivial ease. Pay attention to local, fit a cloak, use a scout. Done. You will never be in any danger. Traveling? Send the scout first. Ratting and someone comes into the system? Safespot and cloak. There is no RISK there.

Quote:
So what we get (higher the better) : 0.0 - 45-20/4-10 = from 11.25 to 2. risk vs reward ratio. lowsec - 30/4 = 7.5. And finally : 20/0-01 = from OH SHI-(infinity) to 200


I make more isk per hour without ever undocking, so it's hard to get too concerned about these oh so pathetically contrived numbers that you've pulled out of your ass.

Quote:
Why lvl4s needs a nerf and not lowsec/0.0 ratting/lvl4s needs a boost : boosting lowsec/0.0 ratting/lvl4s will cause massive inflation, as amount of isk earned will be significantly higher.


Here comes the clue train, last stop is you: The amount of isk in already vastly exceeds the amount of isk out and the economy has been deflationary for a very long time despite this.

You go ahead and stick with your entirely unsupported "OMFG INFLATION WE'RE DOOMED THE SKY IS FALLING" theory, though.

Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:33:00 - [21]
 

Yet another useless post from yet another useless piwat that can't get kills against real PvPers so wants to force mission runners into lowsec so that he can get some easy kills and can stroke his very, very small ePeen.

Go away little boy. I wont tell you to go to WoW cause you would find that too hard too.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:34:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK
Can anyone give me a quick two lines worth of what he is saying? :)


I don't know, didn't read it myself :)

Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Clinical Experiment
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:35:00 - [23]
 

Also, as a final comment of sorts, for time being, i would like to remind of the one factor missing here; time.

It's not risk vs reward, it's risk vs reward with time and effort put into any given activity added.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:41:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: Ryan Scouse'UK
Can anyone give me a quick two lines worth of what he is saying? :)
People are making too much ISK.


... in High Sec and nerfing them will fix something, but im not shure what... Rolling Eyes

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:59:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 21/08/2008 22:00:04
My God . . .Rolling Eyes

Let the people who actually enjoy running endless missions with Navy Ravens run them!!!

What the hell is the problem????????




Personally I think its is mad boring.

Lemptie
Gallente
Glass House
Posted - 2008.08.21 22:02:00 - [26]
 


He says something about missions .

Next thread please .

Brigsby5987
Caldari
Imperial Guard.
Posted - 2008.08.21 22:02:00 - [27]
 

Dont nerf high sec, boost low sec.

Make people want to take those risks. Dont just remove lvl 4 earning potential, because then you get less targets in the end / people emo rage quitting.


Emeline Cabernet
Amarr
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2008.08.21 22:02:00 - [28]
 

there is only 1 way to fix this, move all agents to domain low sec.

Ruze
Amarr
Next Stage Initiative
Posted - 2008.08.21 22:03:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 21/08/2008 22:00:04
My God . . .Rolling Eyes

Let the people who actually enjoy running endless missions with Navy Ravens run them!!!

What the hell is the problem????????

Personally I think its is mad boring.


There is no problem. These guys are just a bunch of jerks and pirate alts trying to force everyone to play the game as they imagine it should be played.

CCP should be boosting hisec, not nerfing it. Give us more systems. Level 5 missions. More exploration zones. More complexes.

Nerfing hisec will only force 98% of all the players to quit.

Lemptie
Gallente
Glass House
Posted - 2008.08.21 22:07:00 - [30]
 



Make low sec ,high sec .

we need more high sec .


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