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Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
Posted - 2008.08.20 10:36:00 - [31]
 

Slavers! Hear what I say!

There will come the time that you will earn the fruit of that poisonous weed you seeded. There will be a payout after all. Yeah, I set free every slave I get in my fingers and give him a gun, so that he can go an pay back what you have done to him and his folks. And even if only a myriade of Reaper-Frigates with pathetic civilian Autocannons they want and they will fight back. I callout every true Minmatar to set free every slave they get (destroy cargo).

I have pinned every damn slaver captain on the pikes of my destroyer and painted it with his blood red as the crecent sun behind the moons of Rens. It might sound a bit savage and a bit wild and bewildering for you. But I think its more civilised than the ugly mess we see when we capture your damn stinking slaver-hulks near our frontiers. Who're thy bloody savages, so ka?

If I ever forget what we are fighting for I just have to remember the captains quarters of one of those ships. »Girls that warm your bed«, my ass. I will warm your bed with all my autocannons firing until the rifles go white and the ammo goes out with a smolderin' whirr. Arrrgh! Come! I need someone to hold me back!

I pay your price for those slaves in ammo. And I transfer it as fast as I can, and il promtptissimo, my word as a salesgirl! Sometimes to be savage is to be civilised. If civilisation has the face of Amarr slavetrade even Politeness would go bloody murder.

FREEDOM, PUNK and AUTOCANNONS!

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.08.20 11:18:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Nebulous
While your intentions may have been good Heartstone this is not the way to free people, it is a subject that has been touched on a few times before, when somebody buy's slaves with the aim to free them they add to the chain of supply and demand, when the slaves are "bought" the demand goes up, the solution is to free them by force, destroying the slave seller and his ship(s), while this does not happen in all cases this will more than likely stop that seller from trying to sell slaves again and cuts that supply and demand chain.


While I usually abhor the phrase "the ends justify the means", slavery is one of the few scenarios where it's actually pertinent.

Buy them and free them, then the slaves are freed. Free them through force, and not only might they die before you get there, or in the raid, but you run the risk of killing innocents alongside them, and that's assuming the raid goes your way.

It's admirable that you stick to your principles on this, but I think your principles need to be re-focused. If you're going to worry about emancipation, then worry about the slaves first and the slavers second.

Still, as ever the ideal is somewhere between the two extremes. I reckon that buying back should be a viable strategy, and that it should be considered as the first resort, to be discarded if the Holder in question seems like the type to abuse that trust.

Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
Posted - 2008.08.20 11:53:00 - [33]
 

But he is right. If you buy the slaves to free them you support the slave trader, the slavery bizz and all that. We have to come down hard on them, with Autocannons roaring and show no mercy when we get them into our fingers. If you want to destroy a bizz don't push money in it. It only gets worse after that. Just destroy all material that is involved. Bizz that does not pay out dies out.

If that costs some lives that is a price the slavers demand for making them stop. Don't mix up who is the cause and who is the response. The ones who start this inhumane and cruel slavery-thing are those who let slaves die of hunger and thirst, whip them to death or do unspeakable things to them - just because they can. Just because slaves are nothing but tradewares for them.

And don't justify a bizz because it makes money. Life is everything, money is nothing. It's just a tool. And slavers abuse it. They are bad for humanity and bad for bizz. So let's sweep the floor with them filth.

BloodBird
Nova Foundry
Posted - 2008.08.20 12:03:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: BloodBird on 20/08/2008 12:46:14
Vilius Naseum = Ok. Since there have been some things said here that are totally out of line [Like what? The fact that people protested your tasteless actions?] i am gonna just say something. Firstly Veron Dork [What's with the attemted insult? Veron was right you know, you sound like a little kid.] i never sold any slaves to you just your corp. [You sold it to his corp, thus to him, being part of it.] You also didnt read the fine print. If some of your stock dies on the way to you thats your problem. [Delivering de-funct wares to your costumers is poor practice, but others have covered that allready. In this case we are talking about human lives, but this holds true no matter what it could have been. IF you value your customers you would take steps to ensure they got what they paid for, not sneak in an excuse from responcibility.] Dont get all high and mighty on me pal. [Why not? You deserve it, even if you might drap yourself in the illusion that you don't.] Besides doesnt Blood Raiders slave and kill people too? Since you or your corp misrepresented yourselves in your mail i wont be selling anything to you all again. [Read Veron's reply, fool.]

Bloodbird i am just a businessman making a living. [No your not. Your an un-ethical bastard who trade anything without regards for what it is or what it might do to others. You are a criminal, apparently willing to do about anything for the reward of money.] Who and what my clients are or what they asked me to sell is none of my business. [It should be, as a businessman your reputasion is your most powerfull asset, you should know that. If nobody could trust you to deliver or knowing you practice suspectible metods, miss-treat your wares or all-out neglect them, that reputasion will drop fast. And in some cases, what you trade in will affect how people relate to you or their willingness to deal with you in future, SLAVER.] They pay me to sell slaves i sell slaves. They pay me to sell radioactive waste i sell that too. Its a free market pal and besides theres no law against me sellin them only against me having them in my posession in Gal space. [Apparently, you never stopped to think of why that might be, Federation citizen. It seems, that life in our nation taught you nothing about the value of human lives, or ethics.] If the sales pitch ****ed you off thats too bad. [Indeed, that is to bad. For you. I HATE slavers, nearly as much as I hate pirates, and you just signed off as one. Your sales pitch affects how people view you, and respond to you. I might just find and kill you as a result of that sales pitch, pilot. Keep that in mind until next time.]

Sky Grunthor slavery is what it is. Its always been there and always will be. You cant stop it so why try. I dont make a big deal about it anyway. I just sell stuff. [As the woman said, slavery can indeed be stopped, it's not allways going to be there just because someone has allways practised it. That it's wide-spread does not make it right or harmless.]

My clients specified certain buyers. She wanted to make sure the slaves stayed that way. I guess she thinks those that cant not let themselves be slaves deserve it. Somethin like that. Whatever. Think of it as a way to weed out those that dont deserve freedom and life. I dont get into politics and really dont care. [You should, I'd like to meet this client of yours some day.]

Dont flame me because i make iskies. [We don't, we don't like you because of your metods, not your chosen career. A career that, btw, has now turned into part-time slave trading. Welcome to the effect of having destroyed one's reputasion.] And about that part about God and stuff? Gods a myth. Get your head out Amarrite. [That's Amarrian to you, slaver. A basic in trading is showing a bit of respect to your clients. At least get the name of his people right.]

Read the bold text.

(Edit: no quote tag.)

BloodBird
Nova Foundry
Posted - 2008.08.20 12:16:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: BloodBird on 20/08/2008 12:41:57
Miss.Wildfire... fitting name btw... I'd sugjest you calm down a couple of notches. Your cause is admirable, but you seem way to agressive in your metods to reach your goal, noble though it may be.

As Stitcher said, a middle thing needs to be reached. I've said it before and I will say it again: Buying the slaves back is a sad, but needed tactic to get them out of the slaver's hands. If they can be secured before the slavers have a chance of selling them, that's good.

But once they are on the market, the only moral thing to do is buy them back, EVEN if that puts money in the slaver's hands, and an excuse for them to go do it again. It's a vicous sircle, one that needs be attacked any way possible, that sadly includes giving the scumbags what what they want if needed.

After all, if you did not, the poor souls being sold would just be discarded as worthless. Slavers have no morals or ethics, you can't trust them to just politely let the slaves go if they are no longer of any value to them.

Still, I like your spirit in this, but getting furious over every single one and going on a rage-trip is not going to help you out in the long run, and it might also alienate you in the eyes of your would-be allies.

So please, Miss.Wildfire, try to calm down a little. You will find a calm freedom fighter plans her action better as well. Trust me, I know.

Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
Posted - 2008.08.20 12:32:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 20/08/2008 12:36:26
My Ship just the mission before I met the slaver. I still got no picture with the corps of the slavers sticking on the pikes and their remains fitted all over the hull.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

BloodBird
Nova Foundry
Posted - 2008.08.20 12:43:00 - [37]
 

Cute warpaint. I bet the ammount of paint to cover that Trasher cost you a bit though.

((OOC: Nice photoshop work, you got some skills thereSmile))

Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
Posted - 2008.08.20 13:13:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 20/08/2008 13:18:42
Originally by: BloodBird
Edited by: BloodBird on 20/08/2008 12:41:57
Still, I like your spirit in this, but getting furious over every single one and going on a rage-trip is not going to help you out in the long run, and it might also alienate you in the eyes of your would-be allies.

So please, Miss.Wildfire, try to calm down a little. You will find a calm freedom fighter plans her action better as well. Trust me, I know.


Yeah shure, staying calm is easy to do. But I do know a lot of people who have family members enslaved or who just got free after years and years under supression, suffering and death in the hand of the Amarr superior race. That sucks big time and I won't stay calm, no sir!

Here in my region some slavetraders have set the price per slave up to 500k and even more. So if you want to free them legally, come and try. They are making fun of us. They stick out their stinking tongues and laugh. I am not laughing at all. A friend of mine who was my best girl friend when I was six was deported and must be the same age as me now. And I know she is suffering bad in their fine hands. I can't just sit still make nice conversation with those rapists and slavers and all the like. It is not a question of good manner, I say it is a question for weapons and for ultimate arrangements.

If there is a cause for fight then there is here. When people are reduced to wares then someone has to do a thing.

I say: no money for slavers. Crash their ships, free the people and no compromises. I am not born perfect, I make my own faults, but I hope I learn my lessons. I don't say the Amarr are all bad people but this slavetrade has to stop. Now! And every Empire that is backing this crime has to be defeated and faught until they draw back.

I understand my people and all the anger and hate that is among them for this issue. And I understand the Freedom Fighters oh so well. But I am still just a very small pilot without any influence and just enough firepower to help myself under the watching eye of Concord police. But that will change.

And I hope there will be more that think as I do.

But the color was not that expensive, by the way. My ship is not that big, its just a little destroyer, ya no? So I just tipped over some buckets of slaverblood and brushed them over the hull. The rest was a question of some hundred spraycans. I am no artist but I hope everyone can see that I am determined.

(OOC: to be true it was a Gimp-job cause I prefer using it for a couple of reasons, one is, that it is doing better what I want - especially with transparent layers. Poor that I still did not find any usable corpses.)

BloodBird
Nova Foundry
Posted - 2008.08.20 14:53:00 - [39]
 

To miss.Wildfire:

When I said a calm freedom fighter plans better I meant just that. One of my dearest friends is a Minmatar Brutor, and she's renowned among the Amarr as an angel of death, or should be. Very soon, the Empire will likely fire on her when they see her, if they aren't doing such allready; and you don't hear her on this summit yelling loudly. Each to their own metods though.

Still, as I have said I admire your spirit, only ting you need do now is apply a bit of finesse. This is all my oppinion ofcourse.

As for your friend who is captured, while I don't like to dispute your word, how do you know that she really suffers that badly? Sure she's a slave, but about half of the slaves in the empire is treated relatively well, considering their status in their society.

The Amarr truly believe that slavery is for the salvation of the slave's soul, so most will treat them well to "guide them to the Lord's blessed afterlife" or somesuch rubbish. I don't believe that, and apparently, neither do some slave owners who do indeed treat their slaves as trash. These are luckily in a minority and break with even their own rules of conduct. However, as a result, it's actually more likely your friend is being treated with... a degree of sense. I just hope that's the case.

As for your argument that slavers and their ilk should be treated with autocannons, not polite conversation, I do agree, but you know... autocannons don't work well on the summit, and this is where we are arguing now. Kill them in space all you like, all I ask is that you try to get your message across a little better when your here on the summit, screaming agressively is not the only way.

I'm not asking you to treat them with respect or politeness, hell, I don't even do that, but there is a middle thing between mad ranting and screaming and showing a bit of restraint.

People are being reduced to wares every day pilot, and to see you and others doing something about it is good. I think UNITY or the Electus matari might have a good use for you, if your desire is companions.

About the fact some people sell slaves for half a million ISK per person... that is indeed mocking. These should not be bought, for the simple fact that as a ware, slaves are not worth that much. I know that sounds cold, and it it, but even if those "wares" are human lives, they simply are not worth that much. Most people that buy slaves have a use for alot of slaves, and will not buy overpriced wares.

The slavers will eventually be forced to lower the prices to acceptable levels, and while they wait to have them sold, have no choice but to treat them well too. You see, no-one that buys slaves have a use for dead or defunct wares, in other words... if the slaver's DON'T treat them well, they will not get money for their "work".

A word on your Destroyer...

It's not really that small, you know. While a cruiser is generally "bigger" than a destroyer in terms of use and role, it's not allways physicaly bigger than destroyers.

The trasher is a nice example. Have you tried parking your ship next to a Rupture class cruiser? You will note that it is infact bigger than the Rupture is.

It's still a nice paint job all the same.

Finaly, a parting word to you pilot. There are many, many people in this universe that would help you in your cause, and even more still that sympatize with your struggle and would help you in more... subtle ways. I might be one of the former in this issue, but I find it hard to work with people of your... loud manner. I'm not telling you that you need to be silent and do nothing or something like that, just that a tad more restraint in your agressive manners might make you more approachable in the eyes of others.

Again, this is all my oppinion. You deal with it as you wish, young freedom fighter, I wish you luck.

Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
Posted - 2008.08.20 17:07:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 20/08/2008 17:22:59
Yes, I admit you are right. So excuse me being a bit hotheaded in this issues. To be angry and triggerhappy is a privilege of the young and so I claim it for me. It is not so that I can't wait. And that I am not able to plan. As a child I watched a fisher. Over hours. Man that man had patience. I never would. Then after six hours of fishing he caught one and put it into his bucket behind him. Silently I sneeked behind him, fetched the fish and got away without being noticed. But -no- I have not the sort of patience that a fisherman has.

I have patience. But mine is not that peaceful. Rage and adrenalin is keeping me awake. Just sitting and fishing - I can't do that, if you understand what I mean.

But alas - I like to talk. And I think I'm a kind person if you don't get me on the wrong foot. I can be diplomatic. But I never will shut up if things happen that must not be. Not for the sake of peace or consense. Never.

Just as an idea -by the way- what about people from the Minmatar Freedomfighter Networks to wait at jumpgates fitted with cargoscanners? Scan every pilot that goes through and note down those who trade slaves. Tell them that you know. And after that give them somewhere what they deserve. Okay, not very diplomatic but there only have to be some pilots present that hang around the gates is enough. Should make it much less attractive to trade in slaves I assume. Is that subtile enough?

But that trick does not work if they don't know. They have to know that someone is watching. Just to track down the slavers and fight them somewhere is really not enough. They have to know. And the Amarr have to know that we do not tolerate this. Even a humane slaver is still a slaver. To let them know is helping to prevent slavetrading I think. And this is the reason I do it loud. Maybe I help more with some words then other with their guns alone. See? Diplomacy. Kind of. Man, I really need a drink. Smoothtalking gives me an urge to get drunk.

Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
Posted - 2008.08.20 22:53:00 - [41]
 

It is with great regret that I must inform you that as of the time of this communication, another 23 of the elite slaves I purchased were discovered to be dead in the cargohold of the transport they were presumably stored in. Mr Naseum, in my opinion, and his client should not be trusted to follow through on their promises to deliver goods purchased in the future.

Those who also purchased other lots of slaves from Mr. Naseum should also double check their contracts or cargo holds to make sure they received what they ordered. Some of the other slaves and assorted persons that were purchased reported being housed with diseased and dying slaves and such. No few of the slaves and persons that I have purchased have shown signs of infection and disease. Where it can be done so, it is being treated. There is no signs of the use of Vitoxin.

Pilot Bloodbird, you should not rejoice in my purchasing these people. It was done on my behalf, true, and out of an act of kindness on the part of my friend, Varedis, who wanted to get them out of the custody of the person selling them. But he could afford only a small part of those sold. I fear many of them are bound to ... less welcoming arms.

I also ask you not to blame Varedis, his intentions were indeed good and noble. He saw suffering and sought to take them from it and to give them a better chance. In order to honor his intent, I will do my best to see that they are cared for and placed well. Just remember, pilots, some of you have good intentions. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I ask that you not follow Varedis example in this.

Pilot Wildfire, your passion does you justice, but I must concur with Pilot Bloodbird. Restraint and the application of ordered and patient thought will take you far, and will result in your losses far less often. You must learn to balance the fire and fury that drives you with the logic and detached judgement that allows veteran warriors to triumph. Just dont lose your self in the process.

To the rest of you that have issued statements of condemnation, I can only add my own.

May God grant you wisdom, Pilots.

Heromann
Posted - 2008.08.21 00:34:00 - [42]
 

Let none admire
That riches grow in hell: that soil may best
Deserve the precious bane.

BloodBird
Nova Foundry
Posted - 2008.08.21 16:09:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: BloodBird on 21/08/2008 16:13:16
Edited by: BloodBird on 21/08/2008 16:10:34
Mr.Daerth, when I said I was glad you were the one to assume "ownership" over these people, I did mean that. I did not rejoice, because yours was the lesser of many possible evils, that these people could have gone to. If they had to be captured and sold off to others, I was glad to notice that it was YOU that assumed control over most, simply because your about the only one I know that would do so.

This don't mean others might not do the same, but you were the only one I knew of.

As for Mr. Naseum, he is still on a minus -10 standing with me, and I swear, if he arrives in low-security space while I am around and have the chance, the man WILL die. If there is anything to gain in doing so, assuming he is not just a puppet head for the real slavers, his corporation might even see a war-declaration from me in future.

Amarrians that enslave for the sake of their wallets or even God is one thing, vile though it is, but a man who should have known better who sells off human beings FOR PROFIT makes me ill. In the true meaning of the word, I HATE his kind. He's no better than a pirate, and just like pirates, he deserves to die.

Miss.Wildfire: Your doing better, allready, by replying as calmly as you did. You don't need to be overly polite or anything, and I'm not saying you were either, but a bit of restraint is nothing but good for you. And your cause.

Another thing, btw: The fisherman whose fish you stole... while I'm not to happy you robbed a man of 6 hours of invested time, you mentioned you could never have the patience to wait that long. well... you did. you waited for 6 hours and eventually took off with the man's food. You DO have patience to wait that long if you need to, see?

Your idea to show the slavers that your there, objecting to their actions, is a good one. UNITY and EM have been doing just that for years, as far as I am aware. They struggle quite openly and let their enemies know they are there for them, ofthen.

You will be okay, I think. You got the spirit, you have the will, and in time, by good fortune or a bit of bad luck you will learn to channel that will into restrained finesse, to great effect. It's merely a question of time.

Best of luck to you, young one.

(EDIT: typos.)

Victor Vision
Amarr
Central Intelligence Service
Posted - 2008.08.22 23:54:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Victor Vision on 23/08/2008

It enrages me to read this communication.

The sale done here was not one of slaves, but one of captives!


The Amarr coined the term slavery, and what is described in the sales description of how these poor creatures were treated - has nothing in common with slavery.

The use of slaves for sexual LUST is strictly prohibited in the Amarr ethics.

Also torturing slaves for LUST is not permissable.

REAL SLAVES ARE ENSLAVED TO FIND THEIR PATH TO GOD,
NOT TO BE MISUSED!
It is the slavers responssibility to see her/his slaves are
brought onto the road to enlightenment.



By reading some of the outraged replies to this sale, I must say I strongly agree, and utterly condemn the seller as well as the former keeper of these captives.


I sincerely hope representatives from PIE as well as CVA see this communication, and join in condemnation of this kind of treatment of slaves.


It is misconcieved and twisted criminals like the seller who give salvery a bad name and enhance the believe in some that slavery is bad.


To be a bit bold - the seller might be connected to U'K for all I know, and this whole sale of captives may be a tasteless and criminal publicity stunt to increase resistance against slavery.

Amonse
Caldari
Fire-Storm
Posted - 2008.08.22 23:59:00 - [45]
 

i will take any that can fight for my corp

Stitcher
Caldari
Posted - 2008.08.23 00:08:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Victor Vision
To be a bit bold - the seller might be connected to U'K for all I know, and this whole sale of captives may be a tasteless and criminal publicity stunt to increase resistance against slavery.


Much as I dislike the Ushra'Khan, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that they would never resort to such a hypocritical tactic.

Alica Wildfire
Minmatar
Federal Investigations Agency
Posted - 2008.08.23 11:01:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 23/08/2008 11:01:27
There are many aspects that speak against slavery. Ethical, humanitarian, political, philosophical. But I asked myself if there are any economical aspects that speak for it. Why does a slaver trade in slaves? Or is it only unspeakable evil that rides him into this?

I hung around jumpgates for some days and scanned every trader on the routes and there is no trade in slaves in minmatar republic. Not in the stable systems, for I did not dare yet to travel in unsecure space with my pathetic small ships (maybe its better to ride in these you may say, but this discussion at an other time). So I hung around and scanned, scanned, scanned. No slavers found yet.

Why? I asked myself.

And studied the markets in Minmatar republic. There is no slavery in Minmatar because there is no demand. This I can say. The prices are high to sell and low to buy. Everywhere. In our republic that's not astonishing. Many of us suffered as slaves or know many that suffered. And I traveled to the production sites where the workers live and took a look around. The Minmatar economic is doing well without slaves. People may be poorer than in imperial societies that have slaveworkers but they are free.

I do not know how it is out there in the losec sectors of this galaxy. Maybe someone can feed intel about this?


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