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Enwyn
Posted - 2008.08.15 09:47:00 - [1]
 

Hi


Is it me or Destroyers (especially Cormorant) are total-useless-ships ??

vostok
Minmatar
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2008.08.15 09:51:00 - [2]
 

Fantastic antifrigate ships which is what they are meant for.

Especially good at killing speed tanks because those small guns can keep up with them quite easily.

Evanga
Amarr
Trust Doesn't Rust
Posted - 2008.08.15 09:55:00 - [3]
 

great salvagers!

Enwyn
Posted - 2008.08.15 09:55:00 - [4]
 

And you use it for what ? lvl 1 missions or ratting >0.5 belts ? Because I cant imagine that ship in low sec.


Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2008.08.15 10:00:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 15/08/2008 10:01:37
Destroyers are very nice anti-ceptor and anti-drone platforms, which are rarely primaied and quite effective at hitting/killing those, and Cormorant is probably the best of those, considering its very good range and tracking.

Problem is, there are other ships that can make interceptors cry loud, and at the same time be useful for something else. Rapier can web them, eagle, muninn or beam zealot can shoot them down from sniping positions, a BS with heavy neut can make them cry too, and at the same time those ships can help the gang in many other tasks.

Thus, they are much more preferred over destroyers, which can fulfill only one role. Though I think this is quite fine, considering their value. I mean, there got to be some cheap, narrowly useful ships that starting players go for. Destroyer fills that role quite well.

If you redo T1 destroyers to have some highly valuable role, you'll have to rethink their material requirements too, I guess.

There were some very nice suggestions for other types of T2 destroiyers though - a cloaked ships scanner craft, in particular - that could be nice.

Davina Braben
Posted - 2008.08.15 10:03:00 - [6]
 

Destroyers are hairy manballs to be fair.

I talk to a few people who have excellent fitting and weapons skills who reckon they can make them work for this or that (anti-frigate work, high alpha on a disposable ship) but generally the concensus is that they are u/s.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.08.15 10:23:00 - [7]
 

The tech 1 destroyers are easily the most underrated ships in Eve. I love them.

Burn Mac
Minmatar
The Tuskers
Posted - 2008.08.15 11:13:00 - [8]
 

I have used the thrasher in low sec multiple times fitted with 200 mm AC:s, you warp to a belt at 0 and most rifters that warp in to pwn you think that you have arties when you really have AC:s to pwn them in.

And ive eft:ed the catalyst it can get awesome dps.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.08.15 11:26:00 - [9]
 

AC Thrasher is fun for cheap T1 frigate slaughtering, or wolfpacking (since thrashers are awesome sources of disposable DPS).

Artillery thrashers are loving all around, since they're, in fact, able to hit interceptors and stuff rather well.

Elurilmar
Posted - 2008.08.15 11:41:00 - [10]
 

I lost a caracal to a catalyst when I was new.

They are great for level 1 missions (basically for new players)

New Players see the bigger ship and go woooowww then they see cruisers and go wooowww. I'm just now getting in battleships and saying wow Smile

Yon Krum
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2008.08.15 11:46:00 - [11]
 

Destroyers are highly underated.

They are also highly specialized and do poorly outside their role. In this respect, they are a less like frigates and cruisers and more like battlecruisers (low damage, high tank, warfare links).

Because it takes so very little to get into a destroyer, you usually see inexperienced pilots flying them. Experienced pilots can afford to fit T2 or good cruisers and tend to ignore the fragile but potent destroyer.

However, with good skills and equipment, it's not hard to make a fearsome dessie fit....

You'll never have one as tough as a cruiser, however. It would be nice to see a second model of Interdictor (or other T2 destroyer upgrade), that builds on their core strength (damage and tracking) and adds durability in a fleet environment. Additionally or alternately, a decloaking bubble (or webbing bubble) would be keen.

But yeah, destroyers are single-role vehicles. A side-path and not a primary upgrade from Frigates.

--Krum

Ekrid
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2008.08.15 12:15:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Ekrid on 15/08/2008 12:20:41
Well, given that their weapon system is the same as frigates, treat them like a slightly larger and slower frigate with range and tracking bonuses.

Treat them as able to kill frigates and drones, while still putting some decent DPS on larger ships. Thats how you succeed in them.

just considered them a frigate on steroids, and you will do fine. Trust me, they **** pretty well with T2 weapons and ammo. Cheap price too, compared to assault ships or inties. In fact you could consider that being so much cheaper, raping inties and other T2 frigs all day long with it makes a considerable number of people cry.


Yeah, and you know how many people say destroyers suck right?

Well, ironically, its the same number of people who have low navigation skills, low gunnery skills (Dont you think that with 8x turrets, you're going to see 8x the benefit from gunnery skills, and thus training them to a high degree is so much more powerful than for some silly 3-4 turret frig?), and low skill in the destroyer skill itself.

There's a reason the high end frigates require frigate L3.

If anyone here says destroyers suck, train up the all important nav skills, train up the gunnery skills to as good as you can (do it on sisi), and get your desy skill to L5, then we'll talk.

Alternatively, wait until the patch nerfs go through and battleships receive a huge mass increase effectively turning them into frozen cows in a blender in terms of alignment time. Destroyer won't look too bad for killing those tacklers then either.

You got a tackler problem? bring a destroyer.
You got an ECM drone problem? bring a destroyer.
you got a T2 frigate problem? bring a destroyer.
You're going to a fleet cap fight? leave the destoyer at home.

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2008.08.15 15:07:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Evanga
great salvagers!


Yes, but paladin is better Very Happy

Ordon Gundar
Caldari
Celestial Enterprises Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.15 15:28:00 - [14]
 

Destroyers blast through level one missions so quickly its embarrassing. The targets pop before you hear your guns firing sometimes.

The only problem is frigates can get too close, and there isnt enough speed in a Dessie to keep the distance easily. This requires some creative point-and-click flying (or a smart bomb!)

They are useful in a fleet as a disposable anti-frig platform, so keep one handy. Especially if you can T2 fit it, and afford to lose it.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.08.15 21:46:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Ordon Gundar
The only problem is frigates can get too close, and there isnt enough speed in a Dessie to keep the distance easily. This requires some creative point-and-click flying (or a smart bomb!)



Web?

Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
Posted - 2008.08.15 23:54:00 - [16]
 

Yeow! Four hours from Dessie V and I don't think I'll fly the sabre much :/. The dessie if skilled and fitted right will melt most of the frig class.

JamnOne
Amarr
Posted - 2008.08.15 23:59:00 - [17]
 

We have destroyers in this game?

/me checks Item Database -> Ships -> Destroyers

Oh you mean the Coercer...it is wrongly categorized. This ship is really a salvager.

Xanos Blackpaw
Amarr
Inadeptus Mechanicus
Posted - 2008.08.16 00:10:00 - [18]
 

i'm training destroyers lvl 5 right now...and then i will get my gunnery up alittle(they REALLY SUCK..have been spending to much time in a raven and drake) and then i think i might use one for firesupport in a frig gang.

PS: the Coercer do not suck...you REALLY dont want to go up against one in a interceptor...the beam coercer turn a 40km sphere into a no-fly zone for interceptors...

Enwyn
Posted - 2008.08.16 01:02:00 - [19]
 

Well, I have to re-think about Destroyers, now with all your feedback about this ship (thanks for that), maybe yes I'll train that skill to lvl5 and try to pop some poor frig , assuming I can reach any low sec without being killed in the first gate :p

/me need pvp training

Meridius Dex
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.08.16 01:29:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw
PS: the Coercer do not suck...you REALLY dont want to go up against one in a interceptor...the beam coercer turn a 40km sphere into a no-fly zone for interceptors...

Can you really get good enough tracking from beams to catch a high-speed intie? I haven't tried, but I know when I tried beams on my Crusader it sucked to hit anything.

/me sadly still doesn't completely, after ten months playing this game, understand how to figure the tracking percentages to hit with turrets.

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.08.16 01:37:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Meridius Dex
Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw
PS: the Coercer do not suck...you REALLY dont want to go up against one in a interceptor...the beam coercer turn a 40km sphere into a no-fly zone for interceptors...

Can you really get good enough tracking from beams to catch a high-speed intie? I haven't tried, but I know when I tried beams on my Crusader it sucked to hit anything.

/me sadly still doesn't completely, after ten months playing this game, understand how to figure the tracking percentages to hit with turrets.


All destroyers have 10% per level bonus to tracking speed for the destroyer skill. That's 50% faster tracking at level 5. Also, don't use tech 2 sniping ammo.

In fact, even an artillery Thrasher can track 15+ km/s interceptors orbiting at 20 km range, with the right fitting and good skills.

Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
Posted - 2008.08.16 01:43:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Enwyn
Hi


Is it me or Destroyers (especially Cormorant) are total-useless-ships ??


In a destroyers or smaller fight, the destroyer will usually melt a few faces

Add in anything cruiser sized or bigger, and you're generally going to get very exploded very fast

Ekrid
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2008.08.16 06:30:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Ekrid on 16/08/2008 06:47:24
Edited by: Ekrid on 16/08/2008 06:43:25
Edited by: Ekrid on 16/08/2008 06:31:34
Originally by: Meridius Dex
Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw
PS: the Coercer do not suck...you REALLY dont want to go up against one in a interceptor...the beam coercer turn a 40km sphere into a no-fly zone for interceptors...

Can you really get good enough tracking from beams to catch a high-speed intie? I haven't tried, but I know when I tried beams on my Crusader it sucked to hit anything.

/me sadly still doesn't completely, after ten months playing this game, understand how to figure the tracking percentages to hit with turrets.


amazing, ten months and you didnt find this tracking guide. developed BY CCP to give you a quick and easy method for discovering your chance to hit, as well as the curvature of your hit and DPS ratio based on distance from your ship, gun tracking, enemy signature radius and transversal velocity, etc.

the only real problem with destroyers is that their role is easily supplanted by a cruiser using assault missile launchers, or any ship using 5x light combat drones.


HOWEVER, i'd like to point out that in a small gang or even fleet engagements, they will be lower priority targetting for large ships due to A: small sig radius making them hard to target B: not considered a deadly threat to large ships.

Conversely, they themselves can target other small ships with far greater ease than a large ship can, barring sensor booster mods, but putting those mods on a large ship in order to lock a smaller ship takes from their tanking and DPS capability within their own class to acheive this small measure, thus they lose efficiency to be able to target a frigate more quickly to send its drones after it, while a destroyer can multi lock any frigs on the grid and start blasting them down one by one in a methodical manner, something to which someone in a BS is unlikely to be doing as they are attempting to tank and deal damage to other large ships.

Where is destroyer useful then? In fights where the enemy brings frigates.

Where are frigates useful? In fights against large ships with EW modules. For example, two weapon disruptors set to optimal disruption scripts will essentially nullify ANY dps coming from a large ship, thus your own fleet's large ships dont need as much tank, and can set for more gank. So these frigates become powerful pieces on the field, while the larger ships can devote themselves to doing the best job possible in their weight class. Not only this, but you can spread out your EW modules across multiple ships, thus hampering their ability to lock or deal damage among other things against multiple pilots, while you can speed and size tank their guns, as well as lock tank their lock due to small sig radius of your ship and slow lock time of the enemy bses. just dont light yourself up with an MWD, thats a foolish thing to do when there's sniper bses around.

So, now that we have frigates entering the fleet as viable options and important pieces (properly used ofc), to counter these guys we bring destroyers, which through heavier armor (I can get 2500 with en adaptive platings on my coercer) than frigates, faster lock time than cruiser+ sized ships, and a 50% bonus to range, these ships don't even need Speed modules to get in range of a frigate. If you're in range of the frigate, the frigate is definitely in range of you. If you're out of range of the frigate, they will probably still be in range of you, unless they get to 50km.

Essentially, they don't need a speed mod to do what they do best, as the massive range bonus supplants this necessity by giving you superior reach.

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2008.08.16 06:54:00 - [24]
 

[T2 Fit Arty Thrasher of DOOM*]

Highs: 7x 250mm arty II with tremor
Mids: 1x mwd II 1x warp dis II 1x web II
Lows: 2x gyro II
Rigs: None needed

With a super cheap 5% small projectile damage implant and destroyer 5 with level 4 support skills you can get a 14x damage mod and instapop pretty much anything thats a frigate. Also with the capless weapons you can permarun all the mids and orbit at nearly 2000ms. So get a pack of them together and wtfpwn pretty much any solo ship you might run across.ugh

*AWU 5 required.

Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L.
The ENTITY.
Posted - 2008.08.16 08:41:00 - [25]
 

I'd rather fly a Caracal for Anti-frigate work, but I've tried the Coercer in small gangs and it wtfpwns any frig unlucky enough to get webbed by your teammate or within range of your guns.

Andreya
Red Federation
Posted - 2008.08.16 10:28:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Enwyn
Hi


Is it me or Destroyers (especially Cormorant) are total-useless-ships ??

yes it is just you, actually the cormorant is the ONLY viable destroyer for pvp, its actually is a spitting image of the harpy. with slightly less dps. but much more tracking.
i beleive you get around 90 dps at around 90km. you wont miss either... and im too lazy to check the exact numbers...

but no. comorant is one of the best t1 ship out there that arent BS. if and when we screw around, cormorant is the ship i will fly

Andreya
Red Federation
Posted - 2008.08.16 10:31:00 - [27]
 

and yes the thrasher still kicks arse. but the cormorant imo is a little beter when it would come to proper pvp... not that someone would really choose to fly one.. cept me :P

gawd, they bash pods and intys fast tho :P

Meridius Dex
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.08.16 13:27:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Ekrid
amazing, ten months and you didnt find this tracking guide. developed BY CCP to give you a quick and easy method for discovering your chance to hit, as well as the curvature of your hit and DPS ratio based on distance from your ship, gun tracking, enemy signature radius and transversal velocity, etc.
First off, that guide is neither quick nor easy to figure turret tracking versus speed. And I have read it dozens of times. It explains falloff, sig radius and transversal beautifully. But the last page on tracking doesn't have a simple formula to follow and the default examples don't help much.

I've yet to read a breakdown of turret tracking versus speed (the way I've seen ECM strength broken down to show the percentages of jamming success) in a simple and easy to understand manner.

Dr Clay
Posted - 2008.08.16 13:53:00 - [29]
 

I remember a destroyer flying next to my Thorax, looked like he was parking or something, and he popped in about 5 seconds.

Imaos
Posted - 2008.08.16 14:01:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Meridius Dex
Originally by: Xanos Blackpaw
PS: the Coercer do not suck...you REALLY dont want to go up against one in a interceptor...the beam coercer turn a 40km sphere into a no-fly zone for interceptors...

Can you really get good enough tracking from beams to catch a high-speed intie? I haven't tried, but I know when I tried beams on my Crusader it sucked to hit anything.

/me sadly still doesn't completely, after ten months playing this game, understand how to figure the tracking percentages to hit with turrets.


I use t2 pulses on my coercer for a 29km sphere of doom with much better tracking and I don't miss the extra 10km. l5 destroyer and l5 motion prediction help a lot. If they come closer or I expect them closer I use t1/navy for a little extra damage and even better tracking. t2 fit coercer really hurts, but it is a glass cannon.

Imaos


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