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namesarehard
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:24:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: CCP Taera
CCP Fear joins us again for a look at some security standing and suicide ganking issues. Check out his new blog Serious Security for information on upcoming CONCORD and security standing changes!


Wow, with carebear changes like this, you guys may aswell just take out PvP altogether and make it consensual. Thats pretty much the path you are going down.

Fuddlesticks
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:26:00 - [182]
 

Edited by: Fuddlesticks on 06/08/2008 12:28:18
Originally by: Kvarium Ki
Edited by: Kvarium Ki on 06/08/2008 12:16:29
If you are going to do this then limit the ship types that people can fly while in NPC corporations.

You shouldn't be abble to fly a freighter or any type of mining barge while in an NPC corp.

You shouldn't be abble to stay in an NPC corp for ever and be pretty much immune to pirate attacks.




Is that so..are you saying that while in an NPC corp, you can't be suicide ganked? Dude, where HAVE you been??
Yes, you'll still be able to after this, it'll just hurt a lot more..

You say that people should NOT be able to fly a freighter or mining barge while in an NPC corp? I'm sorry but did you even BOTHER thinking that through? No? Let me give you an example:

Joe Hauler is puttering along in his freighter, CEO Jim boots Joe Hauler in midroute..what happens to freighter?
Same thing with the miner..
The explotation value of that system with be immense..

You say people should NOT be able to stay i an NPC forever?
Okay, say you played 2 weeks, then took a break due to whatever RL reason..come back 4 months later to continue and..??..WOW, didn't think that far did you?? How can you be FORCED into a player corp? Hm? Suppose the people in that corp don't want new members..tough luck huh?
What about the people who make alt spies, and all they have to do now, and sit and wait until they end up in some random player corp..the game is infiltrating for you! Hurray!
List goes on!

Do you hear yourself talking???? omg man.

Dav Varan
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:29:00 - [183]
 

Eve is supposed to be a harsh universe.
Favorite words of a suicide griefer ?

Stop crying and learn to adapt
Second favorite words of suicide griefers ?

Well now eves harsh and unforgiving for u and your gonna have to learn to adapt like your victims have had to do for the last 2 years.

Suicide griefer tears are even sweeter than carebear tears Laughing

Syrinthal
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:31:00 - [184]
 

Calling it now:

Once the new server is running, they will mirror EVE and move it to the new cluster while the old one will remain. The servers will be linked by the EVE gate, on the old server which will have a different name like mmm... I donno "Felucca 2.0" they will allow PVP, while on the fancy new cluster they will have place for bears to hug eachother and run lvl4's all day while never having to fear being killed... they can call it "Trammel 2.0", I hear there are some Blood Raiders off the gates in NOL, everyone get your Ravens!

Ron Wright
Shark Investments
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:31:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Fuddlesticks


You say people should NOT be able to stay i an NPC forever?
Okay, say you played 2 weeks, then took a break due to whatever RL reason..come back 4 months later to continue and..??..WOW, didn't think that far did you?? How can you be FORCED into a player corp? Hm? Suppose the people in that corp don't want new members..tough luck huh?
What about the people who make alt spies, and all they have to do now, and sit and wait until they end up in some random player corp..the game is infiltrating for you! Hurray!
List goes on!

Do you hear yourself talking???? omg man.


What do you think FW Corps are for? Every faction has FW Corp... so after 14 days trial time you will be forced to be in that belonging to your chosen faction... if you do not want to be in there... look for a player corp or create your own!... this is a mmo not a massive singleplayer online game!

Onyx Asablot
The Vicious Circle
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:35:00 - [186]
 

My two pence.

  • Raising the bar on suicide ganking - Good. As long as the bar isn't raised too high, it still needs to be a viable option for killing AFK haulers, or if you have intel on multibillion shipments. Abolishing the insurance is a positive and logical step to ensuring that a pilot cannot just randomly suicide with a raven at hardly any financial penalty.

  • Changes to sec status - Proceed with extreme caution. The relative sec changes depending on players involved is a great addition, and hopefully will encourage anti-pirate players / bounty hunters to become more active and effective. However overall this must not discourage piracy in general, low sec must remain full of danger for it to be exciting for all involved. If the pirates leave, the fun leaves. Pirates are already penalised strongly enough for aggresive actions and it does already take a fair amount of time to regain sec rating through ratting.

  • NPC Corps & Corp Jumping to avoid war decs - This system MUST be revised. The gankers here (the ones that take their time to make a reasoned argument anyway) have a legitimate point that there is too much profit and not enough risk involved with running lvl 4's.


In general a thumbs up and good step forward, but could work harder. B-

Hoody
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:38:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: agent apple

Dear Devs, Go Back to WOW

Pesadel0
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:39:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: agent apple
I believe I can safely speak for many of us when I say,

Dear Devs, Go Back to WOW

Gealbhan
Caldari
GealCorp
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:40:00 - [189]
 

You can persecute us, nerf our standings, buff your concord and remove insurance for concord related deaths but you will NEVER, EVER stop us!

Pirates will Always be a part of Eve in every system from 0.0 to 1.0!

Yarrr with me brothers!!!! YARRRR!!

P.S. This will increase war dec's on small empire corps 10x and turn empire into a warred out wasteland.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:43:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: CCP Fear

EVE is still harsh, and it punishes you for being careless and AFK. And this change, doesn't change that.


Where is the risk for the many afk miners/macro miners?
Where is the risk for a semi-afk mission runner?

Missionrunning is already outcompeting things like 0.0 ratting for most and you just take away the tiny risk it had left? Ridiculous.

Shinigami
Gallente
Shinra
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:50:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Fuddlesticks
Lowsec pirating will be even MORE feasible after this...helloooo???


The universe is too well connected to make low sec travel worthwhile now. Its usually 30 jumps on the safe route, and 26 on the low sec route. Why bother risking it?

Pinkranger
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:54:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: CCP Fear

EVE is still harsh, and it punishes you for being careless and AFK. And this change, doesn't change that.


Where is the risk for the many afk miners/macro miners?
Where is the risk for a semi-afk mission runner?

Missionrunning is already outcompeting things like 0.0 ratting for most and you just take away the tiny risk it had left? Ridiculous.


QQ

XXXAKTIVE
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:55:00 - [193]
 

Oh guys, come on.....
There is a chance to stay alive after ganker attack.
There is thermodynamics skill which will help U to live till Concord arrives. U have to read local chat to be aware of such attacks. It's life in EVE to be aware of everything and to predict situations. Thats why I play EVE)))

Also if U decrease the time of Concord arrival it will be bad... very bad.... suicide attacks sometimes is the only way to get rid of mining bot users. Dunno why, but when somebody loading a lot of them at once lead to lags... Lags mean your destroyed ships and your lost equipment on a mission.

If U start a war against mining bot users, so yes, cut the Concord arrival time... Since I dont see much GM work against bot users, leave the X time of Concord plz alone)))

Shinigami
Gallente
Shinra
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:57:00 - [194]
 

Does anyone remember this quote:

<DesignerDragon> We can stand to lose the killers, they cost us revenue.

I wish I could find the old flash movie it was in.

Reminds me of this situation.

omgomgomgxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:57:00 - [195]
 

this sucks devs concords already baby sitting people to much as it is

Fuddlesticks
Posted - 2008.08.06 12:57:00 - [196]
 

Edited by: Fuddlesticks on 06/08/2008 13:00:28
Originally by: Ron Wright
Originally by: Fuddlesticks


You say people should NOT be able to stay i an NPC forever?
Okay, say you played 2 weeks, then took a break due to whatever RL reason..come back 4 months later to continue and..??..WOW, didn't think that far did you?? How can you be FORCED into a player corp? Hm? Suppose the people in that corp don't want new members..tough luck huh?
What about the people who make alt spies, and all they have to do now, and sit and wait until they end up in some random player corp..the game is infiltrating for you! Hurray!
List goes on!

Do you hear yourself talking???? omg man.


What do you think FW Corps are for? Every faction has FW Corp... so after 14 days trial time you will be forced to be in that belonging to your chosen faction... if you do not want to be in there... look for a player corp or create your own!... this is a mmo not a massive singleplayer online game!


I'm sorry, I don't think I heard you right..are you saying..in all seriousness, that Joe hauler, upon being booted from player corp, will be put in a FW corp like that..Are you even THINKING at this point??
If not let me clarify: EXPLOITEXPLOITEXPLOITEXPLOITEXPLOIT

You're trying too hard to avoid what you already know is right, in favor of something that's not even an idea, it's a passing brainfart.

2nd brainfart: After a 14 day trial, you're forced in a FW corp. WHAT??? So now in all your all knowing wisdom and genuis, crying for this change not to force you to change your methods or outcome, but you want to FORCE new players, into full out sanctioned War...No, not suicide ganking, but Sanctioned War.

I think FW Corps are a new flavor of PvP, that brings the fights of 0.0 alliances to the empire areas in a much more managable scale, granted still pretty blobby, but not on the same level as it comes to in 0.0 most of the time.
If that's what you want to do, feel free...But it should never EVER be the game that decides what you want to do - and EVE is about freedom of choice, and I have seen no argument from you or anyone else that proves that you can no longer suicide gank, and be succesful, if you really want to, that simple.

Dzajic
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:06:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: Dzajic on 06/08/2008 13:06:21
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: CCP Fear

EVE is still harsh, and it punishes you for being careless and AFK. And this change, doesn't change that.


Where is the risk for the many afk miners/macro miners?
Where is the risk for a semi-afk mission runner?

Missionrunning is already outcompeting things like 0.0 ratting for most and you just take away the tiny risk it had left? Ridiculous.


Ok, for the Nth time.

Not everyone does L4 in Salia and Motsu in a faction fit CNR or Golem.

Meaning... I can only envy the per hour income of someone ratting in alliance 0.0. I work L4s in a non Caldari non missile spewing ship, for a -10 agent because handful of positive quality agents (not doing missions for Caldari corps...) have bajillion people in the system, laging the hell out of them.

If you removed L4s from empire people would move to places with several L3 kill agents in system, if you removed even that people would go to mining or 0.5 and 0.6 exploration. If you removed all empire belts, all plexes with DED rating greater than 2, do you know what would you get?

Will you get thousands in faction fit Drakes and Ravens flocking to low sec agents?

No, you would see 20-30% drop in subscriptions. Mission running in low sec, unless you are in a corp and practically lock down the system and keep guarding it, is way too much risk for way not enough cash.

Everyone can see location of agents on map and estimate probable mission hubs in low sec. You can trivially gank mission runners on station, and rather easily on gates. If they were stupid and haven't rolled Caldari Achura, and are not in Raven they will do missions longer, giving you more time to probe them. If low sec mission runner is silly enough to use drones, he will be probed even easier.

So to summarize. Pirates will know where are you running the mission, they will know what gate you pass, they are able to find you in the middle of the mission.

And everyone needs those ISKies.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:15:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: CCP Fear

EVE is still harsh, and it punishes you for being careless and AFK. And this change, doesn't change that.


Where is the risk for the many afk miners/macro miners?
Where is the risk for a semi-afk mission runner?

Missionrunning is already outcompeting things like 0.0 ratting for most and you just take away the tiny risk it had left? Ridiculous.


Well, actually, the risk has not been removed from those professions.

The level of risk HAS been upped (some would say balanced) for those that choose to prey on these citizens. Even I have to admit that suicide ganking was extremely easy and profitable... and I am a firm believer that it should continue to exist as it is a good thing for the game. That being said, I really doubt these changes will have much effect on suicide ganking, at least not from those that are competent at it. Disorganized or opportunistic groups will quickly loose their stomach for it, which is also a good thing.

A well organized attack designed for maximum profit/minimum penalty is a good thing for EVE (yes, even in 1.0 systems).

Disorganized spur of the moment attacks taking place in very high security systems simply because it is easy, profitable, and relatively risk free are a bad thing.

So I'm not concerned for the pirates of high sec., the ones that have earned their skull and crossbones will survive this just fine.

I am, however, awaiting the outbreak of protest from the law abiding community of EVE once this goes live. The penalties involved for an accidental module activation in say Jita will now be much, much harsher. If I am a new character with a neutral sec. status, and I accidentally activate something on a max security rating mission runner I'm going to be hurting for a long, long time.

Just as the EVE community discovered that being able to defend your cans in high sec is not necessarity a good thing, this change will bring its own brand of reality check (pardon the pun)soon enough.




Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:17:00 - [199]
 

First, let me get some of the preliminaries out of the way. I am a hauler and manufacturer in high/low sec systems and frequently pass through heavily populated areas. I've never been suicided, I don't engage in suicide ganking, I don't mission and I do some PVP-lite on the side. I guess I still qualify as a Carebear anyway *shrugs*.

I don't usually post on controversial issues, since I am typically indifferent to most of this stuff, but I felt the urge to chime in upon reading the newest dev blog. Do I feel the new changes are a good thing? Yes, but more importantly no.

In my opinion, suicide ganking is currently a little too easy mostly due to insurance payouts. I won't say suiciding was an epidemic, but it became more common as more and more players heard about its potential profit and of course, the all-alluring carebear tears. I will say though that if you're silly enough to AFK-haul in millions upon billions of cargo, then that's your own damn fault for being such a juicy target. If you flew safe and smart, you wouldn't have a problem.

To put it bluntly, the removal of ALL insurance for ganking is a tad extreme. I feel that a 50% or more cut in insurance would have sufficed. You can't honestly say that suicide ganking is worthy of no insurance when you trick out your ships with guns and rocket launchers, head out to the nearest low or null area and have at it. Same goes for killing pirates, you flew your ship into the mission putting yourself in danger...yea, yea you get the point. Real life comparisons are moot here for the most obvious reason: This is a game and games sacrifice realism for fun.

Thankfully these changes will not completely rid the game of suicide ganking. It may make High sec safer than it already is, but there'll always be a juicy target to bash and it may be a little more difficult, but it's still possible. Something I'm very happy about. I joined EVE for its consequences. I don't want anyone to hold my hand and any mistakes I make are my own fault. I think some people need to come to grips with that.

Nobody likes being the victim, but irrevocably there is always a victim in this game whether indirectly or not. That's the name of EVE: Online. Someone's always a victim.

TL;DR -
1. I am a carebear, but I mostly disagree with the changes. There is some good here though
2. No insurance is too much
3. Real life comparisons are moot, this is a game
4. Ganking may be a little harder, but still possible
5. You AFK-haul and get ganked it's your own fault
6. These changes may help curb the bored gankers, but may open up opportunities for more lackadaisical targets

Flame away.

Malen Nenokal
The Nightshift
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:18:00 - [200]
 

I like the dynamic losses based on current standing, that's clever.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:19:00 - [201]
 

I'm just going to shamelessly cross-post my thoughts from a different thread:

These changes are mostly affecting the bottom feeders of Eve. And overall it is to shift the bulk of this kind of "PVP" to the outskirts of empire where it belongs. Unless you fit the category you won't see much change and there is no need for hysteria. It is not 'dumbing' down Eve.

Eve is a game for everyone, including the casual players that don't want to overly trouble themselves with details of precaution. Keep in mind there will still be risk for these players, but not as bad as in say, the lower levels of high security space and low security altogether.

TL;DR: The changes are good and won't affect but the worst kind of PVPers (the bottom feeders of Eve). Will bring more PVP to low sec and less to high sec, as it should be.



Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:19:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Dzajic
Edited by: Dzajic on 06/08/2008 13:06:21
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: CCP Fear

EVE is still harsh, and it punishes you for being careless and AFK. And this change, doesn't change that.


Where is the risk for the many afk miners/macro miners?
Where is the risk for a semi-afk mission runner?

Missionrunning is already outcompeting things like 0.0 ratting for most and you just take away the tiny risk it had left? Ridiculous.


Ok, for the Nth time.

Not everyone does L4 in Salia and Motsu in a faction fit CNR or Golem.

Meaning... I can only envy the per hour income of someone ratting in alliance 0.0. I work L4s in a non Caldari non missile spewing ship, for a -10 agent because handful of positive quality agents (not doing missions for Caldari corps...) have bajillion people in the system, laging the hell out of them.



What ship you use is completely irrelevant. Its easy to make 20+ mill/hr in a simple t1 battleship with t2 fittings. I earn more isk/hr doing lvl 4 in high sec than i do ratting in the same ship, and i can do it while doing something else like watching TV. As i dont need to pay attention to what i am doing. Noone can hinder my isk making in high sec, while a single silly cloaker can lock down my system and keep my isk/hr to zero in 0.0.

Mr Rive
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:20:00 - [203]
 

OK, Ive been suicide ganking for almost 2 years now, and im not against this nerf like i am with the nano nerf. It was simply too easy before for people to suicide gank. I think the change with the larger security hit vs larger security systems is a good one.

Saying this though, it would be nice for CCP to implement an easier way of grinding sec up, as once you implement the patch, the system for updating sec is gonna be incredibly outdated.

Falun Assad
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:21:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
Originally by: Falun Assad

Ohh great, now the last weapon against macro miners goes down the sink....

excellent thinking there... Rolling Eyes


The main weapon is called a GM...

The number of macro miners has been much reduced in some places, it takes some time to check a galaxy of asteroid/ice belts...
At least in the ice belt we use, there used to be 100+ people, now, there are like 30, and they look like players with a corporation and I don't always see the same people when we are there. The 70 others were always there and would be macros, banned macros.


Did it ever occur to you that they might just have moved to a system with more lucrative ice?? Macros and farmers move around..

Just because they left your system doesnt mean that they got banned....

And none of the farmers / macros i petitioned ever got banned, mostly because it is quite hard to prove the use of a macro, while the farmers need to be proven of selling isk before they can be banned.

So petitioning doesnt really help, having a way to kill them would at least drive them from you constellation/ region, plus it is much more satisfying than petioning someone, only to receive an automated response...

Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
Bloody Amarr's
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:30:00 - [205]
 

so t1 ships and t2 modules will get even cheaper. Only insurence makes barrier for price drop.

Hoody
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:35:00 - [206]
 

]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac


The main weapon is called a GM...

The number of macro miners has been much reduced in some places,



This has nothing to do with GM's who rarely even respond to petitions about macro's, it has more to do with them switching to macro mission running and 0.0 ratting 23/7

Benedic
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:37:00 - [207]
 

You can push this change when you separate the empires at least a few jumps of 0.0 space. Deal?

Kvarium Ki
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:37:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Fuddlesticks
Edited by: Fuddlesticks on 06/08/2008 12:28:18
Originally by: Kvarium Ki
Edited by: Kvarium Ki on 06/08/2008 12:16:29
If you are going to do this then limit the ship types that people can fly while in NPC corporations.

You shouldn't be abble to fly a freighter or any type of mining barge while in an NPC corp.

You shouldn't be abble to stay in an NPC corp for ever and be pretty much immune to pirate attacks.




Is that so..are you saying that while in an NPC corp, you can't be suicide ganked? Dude, where HAVE you been??
Yes, you'll still be able to after this, it'll just hurt a lot more..

You say that people should NOT be able to fly a freighter or mining barge while in an NPC corp? I'm sorry but did you even BOTHER thinking that through? No? Let me give you an example:

Joe Hauler is puttering along in his freighter, CEO Jim boots Joe Hauler in midroute..what happens to freighter?
Same thing with the miner..
The explotation value of that system with be immense..

You say people should NOT be able to stay i an NPC forever?
Okay, say you played 2 weeks, then took a break due to whatever RL reason..come back 4 months later to continue and..??..WOW, didn't think that far did you?? How can you be FORCED into a player corp? Hm? Suppose the people in that corp don't want new members..tough luck huh?
What about the people who make alt spies, and all they have to do now, and sit and wait until they end up in some random player corp..the game is infiltrating for you! Hurray!
List goes on!

Do you hear yourself talking???? omg man.


I guess I didn't make myself very clear, or perhaps it's just that you will fail to understand no mather how clear I try to make myself.

War decs. Would you like me to explain that to you?

Perhaps this has changed but it used to be that you where not abble to kick someone out of a corp while that person was in space.

I never said that people shouldn't be abble to stay in an NPC corp for ever. You fail at understanding once again.

Just because you are in an NPC corp doesn't mean you can't own the ship, it simply means you can't undock with it.

Oh and ??!? ??? ??!!!

????????????

I was trying to speak your language, how did I do?


Druadan
Syrus Speculations
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:37:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Druadan on 06/08/2008 13:37:21
Good devblog, good changes. Long time coming. I've never been suicide ganked, and I've never taken part in one, but I've seen them go down and I've seen they're too easy to make profitable. These changes make it more real, something you plan to achieve instead of just abusing the insurance system for what has been shown to be pretty easy by testimony from those who practice it. I believe suicide ganking is an important symptom of what EVE should be, so I don't want to see it disappear. I do want to see it become a little less of a no-brainer though.

Not sure what that standings stuff is meant to achieve. Seems like a factor for the sake of a factor to me.


Minami Sayuri
Posted - 2008.08.06 13:39:00 - [210]
 

I think this is a brilliant idea.


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