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Tobbie T
Posted - 2008.08.10 14:18:00 - [511]
 

Nerfing turns good games into WoW , The less the better , If someone makes a move and wins on making you unhappy you got to outsmart them , And if you belive in WoW being a great game after all the nerfs ... go play that and leave Eve to people who can handle a down YARRRR!!

Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.10 14:34:00 - [512]
 

Originally by: Par'Gellen
That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen in print...

If I wanted to mix it up with pirates then I'd go to low sec. Hence the blog about the whole issue. Rolling Eyes

Edit: In summary - Pirates, just like carebears, have their place. They should stay there.

Oh my. You are playing the wrong game. Need I say it? WOW -->> That way.

PS. I think you just won the "dumbest thing in print" contest.

Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.10 14:44:00 - [513]
 

Originally by: Boohoomoar
100 % wrong. You can still suicide gank people.

If you are lucky. CONCORD response times are reduced.

Quote:
Did you even read the blog? Pirates get less of a sec hit in the lower sec systems.

Pfft. Rolling Eyes Grab a brain for a moment. What pirate gives a **** about their sec status? That is just another carebear/anti-pie buff to make it less detrimental for them to be involved in non-war dec altercations.

Quote:
Dull? Because CCP nerfed suicide ganking? LaughingLaughing

Clearly, you're a carebear alt or a noob. Either way, you just don't get it.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.10 17:44:00 - [514]
 

Originally by: Boohoomoar

100 % wrong. You can still suicide gank people. Which means it's not macrominer heaven. If people only suicide ganked macro miners there wouldn't be a problem because macro miners don't cancel accounts or post on the forums.


Suiciding a macrominer comes with such a large cost it will in reality not happen. And macrominers/isk sellers do post on the forums.

Quote:

Did you even read the blog? Pirates get less of a sec hit in the lower sec systems.

Thats not a buff for pirates, its a buff for anyone hunting pirates.

Abrynn
Minmatar
CCCP INC
Posted - 2008.08.10 18:52:00 - [515]
 

Are you all ******s or just miners not all ppl that fight in low sec are pirates ..... My corp are anti pirates we keep out low sec home safe for all the noobs that come in ( well as safe as we can things happen) if they do this stupid nerf we will lose sec so fast it will be even harder to protect the little guy .... why dont u guys go play WOW if your gonna be so dumb

Abrynn
Minmatar
CCCP INC
Posted - 2008.08.10 19:20:00 - [516]
 

I hate to say it but i agree with the pirates here if you get rid of them whats my job :)

Seriously though this is ******ed high sec yeah make the penatly very harsh or just unable to lock... leave low sec alone killing the bad guy already has a steep penalty for us anti pirates..

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2008.08.10 21:27:00 - [517]
 

Edited by: Par''Gellen on 10/08/2008 21:30:18
Nevermind lol... It's like talking to crazy people... or the wall... Rolling Eyes

Davina Braben
Posted - 2008.08.10 23:19:00 - [518]
 

Edited by: Davina Braben on 10/08/2008 23:20:12
The security hit adjustments scaling by system sec and comparative security of the involved parties are generally good changes I think. Makes low sec PVP less of a specialised pastime, helps anti-pirates etc. etc.

Not sure what to make of the new CONCORD spawns or any of the rest of it.

Anig Browl
Caldari
Posted - 2008.08.11 07:09:00 - [519]
 

"Waaaaaaaahh!!!!!one!!"

Reading these forums, you can see Bartle's Law in action - pirates complain just as much as carebears, only about different things. I suppose I'm a carebear, as I prefer PvE and tend to stay out of LowSec; I simply don't care to blow up passers-by and ratting is less profitable than missioning (if you're a semi-casual player like me that can't afford to put in lots of grind time). On the other hand, I'm the kind of carebear that plays reasonably smart, doesn't aFK and doesn't petition. think what you like.

One good thing about these changes which I think a lot of people have overlooked is that it creates more reasons to go to 0.0. It's a truism that there are more pirate sin 0.4 than 0.0; I've only been ganked in 0.0 a few times and didn't take it personally, because I knew I had made myself a target by loading up on NPC loot. On the other times, I got to hate flying through 0.4 on the way to 0.0 because it was full of semi-skilled jerks who knew how to blob and little else (I prefer a solo playstyle). When you get an EMPTY Badger blown up by gate campers it's not piracy, it's just vandalism.

Think about it: 1.0 should be about as safe as it gets, 0.5 or so should be pretty safe as long you know your way around the game, 0.0 should be horribly paranoid. I'd actually like more NPC danger in 0.0...eg random warp bubble attacks from NPCs, better-than-BS opponents, and so on. Anyone who was into playing Elite will remember a fairly linear correlation between high and low sec. What we've got in Eve are 'no sec' areas that are not actually so bad for an experienced pilot (as it should be) but a lot of senseless violence in middle-class suburbs (0.4).

I think most of the changes outlined by CCP fear are not meant to nerf pirates so much as to drive general lawlessness more towards 0.0 while leaving plenty of options open for thoughtful criminality, where the penalties are a realistic 'cost of doing business'.

Some I'm not sure about. Penalising people for shooting high standing players seems a little unfair but clearly CCP hope to promote more vigilantism among pirate hunters.

One thing I was hoping for but haven't seen is a bit more flexibility for attacking NPC haulers. Without wanting to introduce lag, there should be a lot more NPC commercial traffic for 'baby' pirates to take on. Right now Concord is invulnerable and NPC pirates are always against players (regardless of player security levels). There should be some equivalent of pirate missions so that if you have low security standing you can do missions for Sansha's nation and fight against Empire ships etc.

As a PvE player who currently solos and mostly plays missions (some of my friends have left Eve and I don't play enough to have a lot of relationships) I'm personally OK with getting my kicks by running missions for the Amarr empire. But I feel bad for wannabe space tyrants who have no way to become honorary Guristas or suchlike.



Anig Browl
Caldari
Posted - 2008.08.11 07:20:00 - [520]
 

Originally by: doesn't matter who

Clearly, you're a carebear alt or a noob. Either way, you just don't get it.


Pirates always think they have a superior role in MMO ecology. They don't; it's just another option. Haulers and various other carebears are just in pursuit of a different kind of game experience. Combat is one kind of exciting gameplay, but people often confuse their personal playstyle with 'what the game is about'. In a complex environment like Eve (which has one of the more robust and sophisticated MMO economies) it the game isn't 'about' anything; it just is what it is.

To the extent that different classes are jealous of each others advantages and are all complaining about each other, CCP is doing its job by making sure that no one playstyle predominates. As I said above, pirates can be just as whiny and childish as anyone else; in fact there seems to be a widespread opinion that the game was made just for them.

Kakita J
Placid Reborn
Posted - 2008.08.11 09:14:00 - [521]
 

Edited by: Kakita J on 11/08/2008 09:19:16
Great changes all in all, been campaigning for years to see them implemented.

Modifying security penalties by 1% for full points of standing difference is a bit low imho, seeing that then the maximum attainable (from a positive sec viewpoint) is +5 vs -4.9 = 9% (since if the victim is -5 or lower, you don't get security hits anyway). And a -10 vs +5 could care less if he gets a 15% increased sec hit, to be honest. Maybe 2% per standing diff?

edit:

Oh, and ffs: I know exactly why I don't read the forums anymore. Everybody just comes here to ***** and moan at the most recent changes, because they WILL KILL EVERYTHING THAT'S GOOD ABOUT MY GAME!!!11 Every party in a verbal fight will add some obnoxious WoW references and feel it makes them elite players way above the other plebs that obviously don't have a clue about what is fun.

Blancanieves
X-Ray Industries
United Pod Service
Posted - 2008.08.11 10:29:00 - [522]
 

I think that CCP makes a big mistake by lowering the probability of getting suicide ganked in Highsec. And here is why:

People will just feel safer in Highsec after all. That is bad because many won't even think of the possibility of getting shot in Highsec. There won't be any tips from mission runner to mission runner to be careful. People won't be prepared. As a consequence, they will be utterly ****ed if they someday get all their expensive stuff blown up.

The situation now:

Suicide ganking is not very hard and it's not very costly. It is profitable to gank people with not so expensive fittings. Thus people are not losing much if getting ganked. Ganking is relatively frequent. Many people know about the possibility of getting ganked, and they spread their knowledge. Avoiding getting ganked is very easy, and who was ganked once and has done a little bit of research will not be ganked anymore anytime soon. Getting ganked does not equal having to quit the game.

The situation if ganking will be made harder:

Only a few people will get ganked, those with expensive fitting that makes the ganking profitable. Most people will feel absolutely safe in Highsec. No one knows how to avoid getting ganked, because it seems unnecessary. People get careless, put on their most expensive fitting and don't use scouts. Eventually someone will get ganked and loose all his wealth in a few seconds. He didn't even know that this was possible. He of course will rage quit the game.

I saw it happen. I knew someone who felt totally safe in Highsec and got all his faction stuff blown up. It was the Lofty-scam with helping someone missioning, and he didn't even think of the possibility that someone that wanted help actually just wanted his stuff. He not only left the game but reprocessed his character the same day.

I ask you: Which of the two situations described above is better?

Karma
Vortex Incorporated
Posted - 2008.08.11 11:35:00 - [523]
 

to me it just looks like a matter of supply and demand.

there's a demand for pilots with X* amount of isk in their cargohold to gank...
right now, X doesn't need to be all that much, which means supply is high.
demand is high, supply is high... making it a very easy profession to make money from.
but life in EVE is supposed to be hard, isn't it?

altering how much money a cargohold needs to carry for it to be profitable to gank is the same as thinning out the supply. the competition for the juicy targets will be more fierce, which is good all around.

on the other hand: once this change is enabled, a lot of haulers will think they're all safe and sound now; that no-one will ever gank them again... so in the first few weeks there could be an even higher supply of high-value targets to choose from ;)


* X being more than what ganker's ship cost.

The Mach
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.08.11 12:25:00 - [524]
 

Nice. Glad to see they might have thier heads on stright for this one.Cool

Par'Gellen
Gallente
Neon Cranium
Posted - 2008.08.11 12:38:00 - [525]
 

Originally by: Anig Browl
Pirates always think they have a superior role in MMO ecology. They don't; it's just another option. Haulers and various other carebears are just in pursuit of a different kind of game experience. Combat is one kind of exciting gameplay, but people often confuse their personal playstyle with 'what the game is about'. In a complex environment like Eve (which has one of the more robust and sophisticated MMO economies) it the game isn't 'about' anything; it just is what it is.

To the extent that different classes are jealous of each others advantages and are all complaining about each other, CCP is doing its job by making sure that no one playstyle predominates. As I said above, pirates can be just as whiny and childish as anyone else; in fact there seems to be a widespread opinion that the game was made just for them.

Could not have said it better myself!

Personally I don't care if the "killer elite" (as they seem to think) shoot each other up all day long, even right next to me. Actually that would be sweet to watch. I do love watching the tournies after all. I wish they were more frequent.... but I digress.

Just because I have no desire to grab my guns and start shooting some miner or mission runner that's doing nothing more than going about his day doesn't make me "less" of a player.

Now with all that being said, if there were actual effective means by which to defend myself I might be willing to dabble in combat PvP a bit more. As it stands now though the aggressor has all the advantages and I'm glad CCP is addressing this in high sec. Though I still see it as a bandaid solution to the biggest problem in the entire game. Namely, there is no effective way to defend yourself against determined aggressors.

Bring friends? Yeah been there done that. This only guarantees that when the gankageddon warps in to his scout buddy/alt at optimal from your exhumer you have a nice audience to watch your die in less time than they can lock him. What a waste of time and isk...

Why would anyone want to play a game where their only "role" was to log in and be beaten to death? That's like playing Lions vs. Lambs. OH OH Sign me up! ...No ..... Not really...

Thank you CCP for the long needed improvements!

Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.08.12 00:02:00 - [526]
 

Will this mean that I get to a true -10.0 quicker Question Wink Twisted Evil

Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.12 00:29:00 - [527]
 

Quote:
Just because I have no desire to grab my guns and start shooting some miner or mission runner that's doing nothing more than going about his day doesn't make me "less" of a player.

I don't think I ever said you were.

Quote:
if there were actual effective means by which to defend myself

What is it that is special about you that prevents you from being able to defend yourself? Many others seem to be able to do this. I think what you are looking for is risk-free PvP. Sorry, that's not Eve.... yet.

Quote:
the biggest problem in the entire game. Namely, there is no effective way to defend yourself against determined aggressors.

What a complete crock of BS. Again, you're looking for easy mode, and CCP has now made it even easier for you to be safe. This is why you are happy with the patch.

Contrary to what Anig Browl wrote, for me, it's not about some "elite" PvP attitude. Clearly, the game is dominated by hi-sec dwellers, of whom most are industry based. That is quite fine with me - I even have a hi-sec "good guy" character as well.

What disappoints me is seeing the constant erosion of the low-sec, solo/small gang, pirate play-style. And it's mostly because hi-sec dwellers complain loud and long that it's just not fair they get shot at once in a while. Everyone says "adapt", yet it's pirates that have often had to adapt the most, while the bears merrily continue to chew rocks.

In many ways, the bears are their own worst enemy. Many of the changes they have whined for have had negative results for them. One of my favs is aggro on jetcan ore theft.

There was a time when there was no aggro for ore theft, but the bears cried. So CCP gave them and their entire corp the right to kill someone who stole from them. And what happend? Bears started dying in droves because the evil ore thieves actually shot back.

It will actually be funny if the current band of whiners complaining about "salvage rights" get what the miners wanted with ore theft. They'll get more than they bargained for.

Quote:
Why would anyone want to play a game where their only "role" was to log in and be beaten to death?

Some would learn to fight back or how to avoid such encounters. But why should you, right? You just want to play the game your way and mine in peace. Hypocrisy at its best.

Greenbolt
Minmatar
The Suicide Kings
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.08.12 00:58:00 - [528]
 

I dont fly anything valuable enough to suicide gank and i spend most my flight time in low or 0.0...


These seem to be alot of changes at once.

I agree with the faster concord times and the insurance nerf..
suicide ganks have there place..just right now they are way too cheap to do.

The change in sec loss based on security status of system doesnt make as much sense and seems to go a bit over the top in making 0.5s for example more dangerous to mission with your super expensive ship in than say 0.9s which doesnt really jive in my mind.

Saleene Yersa
Posted - 2008.08.12 01:18:00 - [529]
 

"In addition, the highly requested feature of removal of insurance in CONCORD related events will be implemented in the near future."

Does that include null insurance if you take a loss in low-sec through piracy and Sentries are on the loss-mail? Or don't sentries count as "CONCORD" ?

Kurann
Tribe of One
Tribal Conclave
Posted - 2008.08.12 05:20:00 - [530]
 

Originally by: Par'Gellen
Edited by: Par''Gellen on 10/08/2008 21:30:18
Nevermind lol... It's like talking to crazy people... or the wall... Rolling Eyes


this is how i feel about you right now...

you're telling me not to step on your playstyle...heres the problem with that:
1) list me 5 GOOD reasons you will ever need to go into low sec, where pirates live
2) What is a pirate? Heres how Dictionary.com defines "Pirate"
noun
1. a person who robs or commits illegal violence at sea or on the shores of the sea.
2. a ship used by such persons.
3. any plunderer, predator, etc.: confidence men, slumlords, and other pirates.
4. a person who uses or reproduces the work or invention of another without authorization.
5. Also called pirate stream. Geology. a stream that diverts into its own flow the headwaters of another stream, river, etc.
–verb (used with object)
6. to commit piracy upon; plunder; rob.
7. to take by piracy: to pirate gold.
8. to use or reproduce (a book, an invention, etc.) without authorization or legal right: to pirate hit records.
9. to take or entice away for one's own use: Our competitor is trying to pirate our best salesman.
–verb (used without object)
10. to commit or practice piracy.

Now, what does a pirate do? attacks other people with no regard for law or consequences to take what he/she wants. Short of anti-pies, who wants that? The reason i became a pirate was to take what i wanted (or dropped in EvE's case) from whomever i wanted. But now you want me to stay in low sec, so you can hump rocks all day, because that is your playstyle? And not bother you? Seriously? Are you ******ed? Do you ride the short bus and have all the pads on your elbows and knees? Cause if you don't, this patch will help you out with that.

Don't tell me to play the game my way and leave you to play the game your way, because the game my way IS TO KILL YOU.

And no, I'm not an elitist, nor do i think im better then you, but you want to play the game so you have fun, and so do I, this patch doesn't let me have my fun, but you can. Fair? No. Will it happen, yes. Why? cause you and your rock humping buddies cry all day about us big bad "jarheads" coming in a "ruining" your "fun."

Keiko Saito
Posted - 2008.08.12 07:50:00 - [531]
 

Originally by: Saleene Yersa
"In addition, the highly requested feature of removal of insurance in CONCORD related events will be implemented in the near future."

Does that include null insurance if you take a loss in low-sec through piracy and Sentries are on the loss-mail? Or don't sentries count as "CONCORD" ?


Last time I checked the Sentry guns belonged to the faction with Sov so in low sec empire you should avoid that particular penalty to your criminal activities.

Keiko Saito
Posted - 2008.08.12 08:15:00 - [532]
 

Originally by: Kurann


Now, what does a pirate do? attacks other people with no regard for law or consequences to take what he/she wants. Short of anti-pies, who wants that? The reason i became a pirate was to take what i wanted (or dropped in EvE's case) from whomever i wanted. But now you want me to stay in low sec, so you can hump rocks all day, because that is your playstyle? And not bother you? Seriously? Are you ******ed? Do you ride the short bus and have all the pads on your elbows and knees? Cause if you don't, this patch will help you out with that.

Don't tell me to play the game my way and leave you to play the game your way, because the game my way IS TO KILL YOU.

And no, I'm not an elitist, nor do i think im better then you, but you want to play the game so you have fun, and so do I, this patch doesn't let me have my fun, but you can. Fair? No. Will it happen, yes. Why? cause you and your rock humping buddies cry all day about us big bad "jarheads" coming in a "ruining" your "fun."


Last time I read the dev blog it was pretty simply stated that CCP don't want to stop people commiting piracy but currently they believe that it's too easy in High Sec and rewards outweigh the risks by a significant amount. That's all, it's CCP say sorry we got the balance wrong and it was never intended to work this way and we are finally going to try to fix it.

I know people say that this is a result of all the whines but seriously when was the last time you saw someone make a post to say "Dear CCP I love being a pirate but you made it too easy." ?

Borgholio
Minmatar
Quantum Industries
Prime Orbital Systems
Posted - 2008.08.12 08:21:00 - [533]
 

Originally by: Kurann


1) list me 5 GOOD reasons you will ever need to go into low sec, where pirates live
2) What is a pirate?


Well currently there is no reason to go into lowsec. That does need to be changed to make lowsec the way it should be. Busy and bloody. Increase rewards for missions in lowsec and put ore that's actually valuable. That will increase the number of targets there.

As for piracy, it's true that the very act of piracy infringes on someone else's gameplay. That's why, despite what some people may think, having consensual PvP is a good idea. Leave highsec safe for the carebears, make lowsec the perfect place for pirates by giving them the targets they desire.

I think this change to suicide ganking is a good thing, but CCP shouldn't stop there.

Bob Killan
Caldari
Dzark Asylum
Posted - 2008.08.12 09:37:00 - [534]
 

People who fly high value ships have spent alot of time and effort getting them, Concorde maintains the peace in High Sec and Theft and murder are crimal acts, and so should be punished, killing a mission runner of billions in ships and cargo is a crime the mission runner took a risk (what should be a small risk as any act to take there stuff is illegal). Currently even taking loot out of the equation pirates can end up in front after a gank due to insurance. and all they get is a small sec hit, if you ask me any illegal act in High sec should make someone an instant out law and subject to the punishment of every + sec player being able to KOS in high sec with no penalty to purge high sec of these outlaws, push them back to there low/0.0 homes they choose when entering into criminal activities.
Eve should be a cold hard place for pirates too.

Im sure if any of these gank types went to a large alliances space they are red with they would get hounded by the local authorites and they cannot kill a few NPC's to gain the alliances trust so why should they get that benefit against Eve main empires policed by concorde?

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.12 10:18:00 - [535]
 

In the past, a CCP devs would read the last two posts, have a good laugh and then smack the living daylight out of each of those carebears. With the current CCP devs, these are the kinds of players that are catered to. It's sad.

Rosenkranz
Caldari
The Aussie Connection Corp
Posted - 2008.08.12 11:49:00 - [536]
 

Originally by: Shinigami
Edited by: Shinigami on 06/08/2008 06:12:16
CCP will be introducing trammel pretty soon. STAY TUNED!


I like the changes. I see it as making pirating more of a challange. Right now any dweeb can put together a gank squad with little consequence.

The sad thing is that I so understood the above quote :) UO turned to crap when they introduced Trammel.

Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.12 14:18:00 - [537]
 

Originally by: Rosenkranz
Originally by: Shinigami
Edited by: Shinigami on 06/08/2008 06:12:16
CCP will be introducing trammel pretty soon. STAY TUNED!


I like the changes. I see it as making pirating more of a challange. Right now any dweeb can put together a gank squad with little consequence.

The sad thing is that I so understood the above quote :) UO turned to crap when they introduced Trammel.


I felt bad... I had to look Trammel up...

My first Graphical MUD (MMORPG?) was a game called Meridian59, it predated UO... servers started to lag when you got over 100 people playing... there were 10 or 11 shards, servers... 100 to 109 allowed PvP, 200 did not... at the end, odds were you would not see any PvP on any server, 100 to 109 were lucky to have 2 people on, 200 still had double digits (low, but double digits).

Trammel (no PVP shard) from the UOGuide, became a popular server for those that enjoy role-play, PvM... The builders... builders tend to be more willing to take the time to create items, to do boring things (like mine) in pursuit of their goals... I will admit, the introduction of Trammel may have made it harder for those that enjoy the killing of weak and unarmed (or at least not well armed) to have fun, it would make their lives miserable having to fight those that can fight back effectively...

I just hope the use of the System (posted) Security Level to adjust security changes (higher in high sec, lower, even minimal in low sec, none at all in 0.0) would in fact make Low Sec “THE PLACE” to recover your security level if you wish to fly into High sec space “unmolested”… but as with Trammel it will make the pirates lives miserable, their only targets may be able and willing to shoot back…

Low sec needs more reasons for people to enter it, better mission rewards, better rats, better asteroids, better what ever…

Ehranavaar
Gallente
Posted - 2008.08.12 15:47:00 - [538]
 

Originally by: Sirius Problem
Some would learn to fight back or how to avoid such encounters. But why should you, right? You just want to play the game your way and mine in peace. Hypocrisy at its best.



since we bears can have unwanted pvp forced on us at any time by the "leet pirate types" how bout in the interest of fairness we bears have the ability to force out preferred playstyle on the "leet pirate types". say a module that can limit a pirate to only targeting npc's for a time or only being able to activate mining lasers on his ships. not to be mean about it say that time was his 2 or 3 hours of playtime. that can be a lot less time than a bear has to labour to replace what he lost to "your" playstyle.Rolling Eyes

Maximillian Bayonette
White Lion Manufacture and Salvage
Posted - 2008.08.12 16:38:00 - [539]
 

Originally by: Ehranavaar


since we bears can have unwanted pvp forced on us at any time by the "leet pirate types" how bout in the interest of fairness we bears have the ability to force out preferred playstyle on the "leet pirate types". say a module that can limit a pirate to only targeting npc's for a time or only being able to activate mining lasers on his ships. not to be mean about it say that time was his 2 or 3 hours of playtime. that can be a lot less time than a bear has to labour to replace what he lost to "your" playstyle.Rolling Eyes


It's already like that. Piracy can't sustain most pirates, so they are forced to mission run in high sec or rat in 0.0 for isk. There are the lucky few who manage to find enough targets to keep the wallet in the green, but those are very rare.


Sirius Problem
Darkness Inc.
Posted - 2008.08.12 19:18:00 - [540]
 

Originally by: Ehranavaar
since we bears can have unwanted pvp forced on us at any time by the "leet pirate types" how bout in the interest of fairness...

The problem many of you seem to have is that you think you should have the option to be 100% free from the risk of PvP. Sorry, this is Eve. A basic foundation of the game is that there is no such thing as 100% risk-free space.


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